Diet Thread

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CKinnard
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Thu Sep 21, 2017 3:06 pm

mikesbytes wrote:
CKinnard wrote:I'd like to see health insurance premiums reward healthy lifestyle choices, but the bleeding hearts always come in and put the wrong spin on it.
Am I correct in saying that the only differential currently is smoker/non smoker?


Nah, there's always some kind of reward being attempted, but minor stuff that usually focuses on those who need it least.
We need health insurance for groups more effected by poor lifestyle choices, which is more so the lower educuated and financially less able.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:36 pm

CKinnard wrote:
mikesbytes wrote:
CKinnard wrote:I'd like to see health insurance premiums reward healthy lifestyle choices, but the bleeding hearts always come in and put the wrong spin on it.
Am I correct in saying that the only differential currently is smoker/non smoker?


Nah, there's always some kind of reward being attempted, but minor stuff that usually focuses on those who need it least.
We need health insurance for groups more effected by poor lifestyle choices, which is more so the lower educuated and financially less able.
Thanks CK, now I think about it, some offer a small rebate for those with gym membership. Statistically those with gym memberships would be healthier than those who don't have gym membership so its a metric the health funds can use to target customers who make less claims. How to reward people for making healthier nutritional choices is a lot more difficult as there isn't a simple metric (like a gym membership) to differentiate on, so how would the health fund measure the nutrition.

When I worked in IT I recall the talk about how to use information in targeting people to sign up to health funds, or conversely not sign up. Govt regulation meant that they couldn't refuse anyone. At the time it was pretty much restricted to closing down the shops in geographically unprofitable areas. With the advent of the internet the information can be used in marketing to those who least need a health fund and just as importantly, if not more so, not marketing to those who are likely to make bigger claims AKA targeted marketing.
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:57 pm

Mexican black beans, haven't used them before but couldn't resist them being 1/2 price at the supermarket. This one is carnivore as I put a small amount of left over chicken in it. Also used up a tin of tomatoes that's been sitting in the cupboard for ages. Capsicum was microwaved in some water (not the top) and stuffed with rice and vegetables, same ones used with the beans.

Gotta luv the accidental face of Mars in the sour cream :)

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Patt0 » Fri Sep 22, 2017 3:27 am

Mike, that looks very tasty.

I just run out of capsicum. Bought 12 for $1.38 two weeks ago and been having one steamed everyday.

As my fasting glucose was a little high I told the wife I am cutting back on carbs. So a few of her new dishes have been noodles and pasta with 1/2 flour and 1/2 spinach. Lasagna with said pasta and zucchini every second layer. :D
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:52 am

Patt0 wrote:As my fasting glucose was a little high I told the wife I am cutting back on carbs.

It appears natural to cut back on carbs if you are having glucose control issues. Substituting (low GI) whole carbs - which you appear to be doing - helps. But cutting back on fat intake is the primary solution.
Plenty of information in the videos listed in the link below on Dr Greger's site.
https://nutritionfacts.org/topics/diabetes/

Dr Barnard - after doing his own research study, which was published - wrote a book about it called "Neal Barnard's Program for Reversing Diabetes" (which I've read).
http://www.pcrm.org/nbBlog/conquering-diabetes-with-carbohydrates
https://www.bookdepository.com/Dr-Neal-Barnards-Program-for-Reversing-Diabetes-Neal-Barnard/9781594868108?ref=grid-view&qid=1506030573370&sr=1-1

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Patt0 » Fri Sep 22, 2017 9:34 am

Nobody wrote:Plenty of information in the videos


I turned off the video when he said that fat gums up the insulin receptor :roll:. I actually have a major in biochemistry, microbiology and molecular genetics besides. I settled for a straight BSc to give me more freedom to change careers, as I have.

It would have to be a comprehensive and helium tight study to convince me a low fat/ high carb diet was close to being the best for humans. It is a conclusion I arrived at through my own trial and error. Validated by observing the fattening of pigs and cattle on surrounding farms growing up. Not least the people around me.

Anyway you dont need the best diet, even the worst will satisfy your genes.
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Fri Sep 22, 2017 11:28 am

Patt0 wrote:I turned off the video when he said that fat gums up the insulin receptor :roll:. I actually have a major in biochemistry, microbiology and molecular genetics besides. I settled for a straight BSc to give me more freedom to change careers, as I have.

It would have to be a comprehensive and helium tight study to convince me a low fat/ high carb diet was close to being the best for humans. .


I also have a B.Sc, specializing in physiology and neuroscience; and over the last 2 weeks have delved more deeply into the cause of insulin resistance. The most comprehensive paper is
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26865583
which summarizes that current findings regarding the cause of IR are consistent with 'adipose failure', with compensatory hyperinsulinaemia. This model does not contradict the dozens of other papers I've read.

What is adipose failure?
In a nut shell, an individual's fat storage CAPACITY is stressed by excess dietary intake, resulting in a cascade of events starting with adipocyte hypoxia, and resulting in many things including disrupted intra-adipocyte insulin signaling. This leads onto insulin resistance.

Confusion in the literature is partially due to fat storage being quite variable between individuals. This theory is not contradicted by normal weight T2Ds, nor individuals with genetic anomalies. It is a well known phenomenon that those who have had gastric sleeve surgery and similar interventions have blood glucose normalize within a week, well before significant weight loss. It is thought this is enabled by a combination of the patients normally having to fast after the operation, followed by a very low Calore intake for several weeks, and that the first fat to come off are ectopic deposits in the pancreas that compromise insulin production.

The most successful therapy for reversing insulin resistance and T2 diabetes is to reduce bodyfat.
Whether the diet is low or high carb, unprocessed foods, or formulated drinks, or a fast, makes little apparent difference to the reversal, in the short to medium term.

Failure of fat loss to reverse T2D can be due to ectopic deposits of fat in the pancreas causing inflammation/scarring which permanently damages and compromises insulin production.....and dysregulated autonomic nerve inputs into the pancreatic beta cells (SNS strongly inhibits insulin production/secretion, and PNS stimulates).

Dysregulated blood glucose is very downstream in the cascade, and some scientists on the low carb camp use insulin response to a glucose challenge to gauge insulin resistance. This test via their estimates classifies 40% of western civilization as insulin resistant! Which I suppose should not surprise considering 65% of us are overweight.

_______________________

my other two concurrent reading projects are what causes fatty streaks, the preceding signs of atherogenesis, and what causes non alcoholic fatty liver disease.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Patt0 » Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:59 pm

Patt0 wrote:
As my fasting glucose was a little high I told the wife I am cutting back on carbs. So a few of her new dishes have been noodles and pasta with 1/2 flour and 1/2 spinach. Lasagna with said pasta and zucchini every second layer. :D


My wife is a registered nurse, working in a cardiac ward for the last 12 years. If I told her I wanted to play with my new cute puppy called ketosis I would never hear the end of it. Especially after my recent episode with solid pain in the heart region. It was a comment more about my lovely wife's cooking than my glucose level. Which I am not really worried about. Not looking to lose any more weight but this cute little puppy has me intrigued. The plan is to keto during the week and carb up friday night for weekend races. My aerobic and anerobic performance is increasing as well as short and long term recovery. So I will keep throwing sticks.

Regarding the chest pain, I say Nobody hit the nail on the head with his rib cartilage comment. I have since accidentally and once intentionally reproduced the same pain.
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Patt0 » Sat Sep 23, 2017 12:46 pm

One Kilo Salad for one ingredients

190g lettuce
420g tomatoes
450g cucumber
150g fetta
1/2 onion
50g virgin olive oil
10g white vinegar
3g salt

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spinach pasta
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zucchini lasagna
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My wife is a great Thai cook, but I used to cringe when she said she was cooking western. Now I look forward to it. She cooked this after a niteshift. Slowcoooker lasagna.
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Patt0 » Sat Sep 23, 2017 1:06 pm

Before
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After
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sat Sep 23, 2017 1:45 pm

Wow, never knew you could do a lasagne in a slow cooker. Looks great even though I avoid cheese.
Good to see it's all home made anyway.
I have to laugh at how you had room for more camembert or similar after the meal.
Was the hole in the slow cooker all eaten by you?
And you certainly don't look overweight.

Meanwhile, today I was up at 6, 42k solo ride at 29kph average. (700 Cal burn above BMR), 50ml of soy milk in a coffee when I finished, lunch at 1pm - 350 Cals = 2 cups legume chili and 6 cups of vege and salad....and am sated. Off to the Port Office now with no intent to drink booze.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Sat Sep 23, 2017 4:38 pm

Great before and after pictures patto

I'm not a fan of pre-made lasagna, like sold at the supermarket. Home made is an entirely different story, its what's between the sheets that makes all the difference. You've spurred me on to make so, haven't made it ages. Mine won't taste as good as yours as I'll be buying the sheets

CK " with no intent to drink booze" ha ha, let us know if plan and actual were the same :) Hey if we were perfect we would be perfectly boring
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sat Sep 23, 2017 8:53 pm

Mike, just got home. I worked in advertising in my teens and early 20s, and one of the agencies had a reunion. A brilliant and bizarre experience to catch up with people I haven't seen for 20-30 years. Everyone was so friendly and in a fun mood, so a great time. And there were photo albums there from our old Christmas parties....man they were different times. Couldn't get away doing now what we did then. One of the girls pulled out 2 letters I wrote to her in the office! Was stunned she kept them all these years. not letters of affection, more humor.

Managed to stay on mineral water for the 5 hours. A few picks at the finger food,...no damage done! another 1000+ Calorie deficit day after a 16 hour fast. I am organizing my 40th school reunion with a couple of others at the moment. hope it is half as much fun.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Patt0 » Sun Sep 24, 2017 5:41 am

CKinnard wrote:Wow, never knew you could do a lasagne in a slow cooker. Looks great even though I avoid cheese.
Good to see it's all home made anyway.
I have to laugh at how you had room for more camembert or similar after the meal.
Was the hole in the slow cooker all eaten by you?
And you certainly don't look overweight.

Meanwhile, today I was up at 6, 42k solo ride at 29kph average. (700 Cal burn above BMR), 50ml of soy milk in a coffee when I finished, lunch at 1pm - 350 Cals = 2 cups legume chili and 6 cups of vege and salad....and am sated. Off to the Port Office now with no intent to drink booze.


I only had a little, maybe 1/3 of what had been taken. Weekend plans changed so didnt start carbs till saturday. Incidentally 400g of potato wedges for an extra 80g of carbs. Daily total of 150g. Big carb day.

I am a big fan of slow cookers. Missus is catching on. Thai cooking is generally done as quick as possible so she was apprehensive at first. Her lack of experience with western cooking makes her dishes fresh, tasty and innovative, mostly :) .

mikesbytes wrote:Great before and after pictures patto



Multiple recent events of electrodes on torso left me all patchy. Then the flu left my hair all split and mangy. So I got the clippers out. Unfortunately it didnt improve my looks. At least it couldnt make them worse. Wife thought I looked funny.

Breakfast. 1:1 Brazilian, Ethiopian, roasted myself.
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Sun Sep 24, 2017 8:11 am

175 calories Patto? Doing way better than me mate :)

450gms of snow pea sprouts for only about $1 more than those tiny packets you get at the vege shops. Check out your local asian food stores.
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Calorie wise today is going to be a bad day as I'm going to one of the all you can eat places for lunch. I've partially counteracted by reducing the breakfast calorie haul.
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Mon Sep 25, 2017 1:40 pm

http://today.com-t.site/intron/special-zema:outbrain-d/?_o=nat&clickid=Y2xpY2suYWRiaXEuY29t.cf22b184d73589fd6cfed1fe3fb4cb7f&pbid=4af75267-a1a2-11e7-9d71-4cbbd699fefa&trk_c=zema&trk_ad=745299#beautyheadlines.com

Depending on how you do the math's I got 3,667 average calorie deficiency a day for 12 weeks. The reason that such ridiculous statements exist is that people are looking for the silver bullet and part with their money way too easily
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Patt0 » Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:36 am

mikesbytes wrote:175 calories Patto? Doing way better than me mate :)



Post race, 1/4 apple pie (Home made with 6kg apple, 1 kg sugar 800g butter 800g flour), 3 chicken legs, 6 frosty fruits, cheese, sausage, ice cream, watermelon, pawpaw, honeydew +. 4000calories+ :| I want to stop these binge refeeds.
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Tue Sep 26, 2017 4:47 pm

Patt0 wrote:
mikesbytes wrote:175 calories Patto? Doing way better than me mate :)



Post race, 1/4 apple pie (Home made with 6kg apple, 1 kg sugar 800g butter 800g flour), 3 chicken legs, 6 frosty fruits, cheese, sausage, ice cream, watermelon, pawpaw, honeydew +. 4000calories+ :| I want to stop these binge refeeds.


yep that's a binge.
I don't know how long your race was.
But it appears your binge is a sign of negative fluid balance and glucose craving.
There's a few things to review in your own mind to resolve this:
- are you starting the race with full glycogen stores. Do you carb load the day before?
- are you postive fluid balance at race start? drank at least a liter of water in the hour prior?
- what's your hourly rate of fluid, electrolyte, and food intake during the race?

If you get binges when not doing heavy training and racing, it's possible you have significant insulin resistance. Doctors don't measure this, which is stupid because IR develops well in advance of poor blood glucose control.

Ways to reduce general carb cravings and IR are to do a bit of fasting - 2-3 mornings a week, skip breakfast and drink a liter of water instead; go cold turkey on anything with sugar added or refined carbs.
Then there's race strategy, but I won't get carried away now.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Fri Sep 29, 2017 6:41 pm

Came upon an interesting product today - Paleo bread
Image Image

Is Paleo a registered trademark?
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sat Sep 30, 2017 1:46 pm

mikesbytes wrote:Came upon an interesting product today - Paleo bread


interesting. I give the manufacturer Brownie points for creativity.

Nevertheless, not only has the Paleo diet's relevance to the evolution of homo sapien sapien been debunked.....but there's a strong case that processing grains or pretty much anything into a flour or powder, bypasses the satiation, digestive, absorption, elimination, and metabolic mechanisms we have evolved, all with deleterious effects such as insulin spiking, fatty liver, excessive weight gain.

As an example, consider the graphs below.
The upper is weight gain by three different groups of mice that ate ad libitum.
The black squares were controls and fed standard high carb mouse chow pellets.
White circles = standard Western diet pellets with relevant portions of sugar and fat.
Grey squares = pellets same as white circles except higher fat.

The result was weight gain on the Western and high fat diets, well above the control pellets.

Image
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals ... C9C76BE23F

Now consider the bottom graph.
It shows what happened when the three groups were given the food not as pellets but as powders.
bodyweight gains were similar! So the three groups over-ate to the same degree!

What can be inferred?
When it comes to satiation and weight gain, macronutrient ratio may be less important than whether food is processed (refined) or not.
Pre-processing food bypasses digestive and absorptive machinery, and satiation signaling.

So the Paleo, low carb, and PBWF groups need to promote the same message - eat less if any, refined and processed foods!
Refining food might have been important for our ancestors to help extract as many Calories as possible for the least thermic effect of food, when food was scarce, and manual labour compensated blood glucose spiking.
However, in this day and age, the same cannot be said!

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Baalzamon » Sat Sep 30, 2017 2:44 pm

So today I went cycling. Nothing special about it just another saturday right except 38hr fasted. Not hungry. 1 black coffee. Right now I'm at 43hrs fasted and going for 3 days at least.
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:36 pm

Baalzamon wrote:So today I went cycling. Nothing special about it just another saturday right except 38hr fasted. Not hungry. 1 black coffee. Right now I'm at 43hrs fasted and going for 3 days at least.


It's the intensity of your riding that will bring forward depletion of glycogen stores.
After that, avoiding blood glucose bonks will come down to how efficent your liver is at GNG.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Baalzamon » Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:39 am

CKinnard wrote:
Baalzamon wrote:So today I went cycling. Nothing special about it just another saturday right except 38hr fasted. Not hungry. 1 black coffee. Right now I'm at 43hrs fasted and going for 3 days at least.


It's the intensity of your riding that will bring forward depletion of glycogen stores.
After that, avoiding blood glucose bonks will come down to how efficent your liver is at GNG.


I never bonk, ketones protect me. My quads tho will run out of glucose if I push too hard anaerobically. If an aerobic workout I can ride all day long and not need food.
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sun Oct 01, 2017 12:38 pm

CKinnard wrote:What can be inferred?
When it comes to satiation and weight gain, macronutrient ratio may be less important than whether food is processed (refined) or not.
Pre-processing food bypasses digestive and absorptive machinery, and satiation signaling.

Well said and it appears that way.

CKinnard wrote:So the Paleo, low carb, and PBWF groups need to promote the same message - eat less if any, refined and processed foods!
Refining food might have been important for our ancestors to help extract as many Calories as possible for the least thermic effect of food, when food was scarce, and manual labour compensated blood glucose spiking.
However, in this day and age, the same cannot be said!


Not that I'm disagreeing, since one of the primary problems of afluenza societies is weight gain from processed foods. But there is also plenty of anecdotal evidence that people can take the unprocessed philosophy too far and have problems with getting enough nutrition. Plenty of testimonials out there from ex raw vegans.

So for weight management on an ad-lib diet, it's how much it's processed, macro ratio and calorie density. However for the best nutrition absorption, a balance in processing needs to be found.

An example of this recently for me is ground linseed. 12g a day sprinkled on my oats seemed like plenty. But I appeared to still be getting symptoms of too little fat in my diet in relation to skin dryness. Anyway, instead of just sprinkling linseed on my oats, I now stir it in and wait some minutes. Since doing that I've noticed an improvement in my skin. So it gets back to it's not so much what you eat, but what you absorb. Same with my veg meal. I could probably eat most of it raw, but I would likely fare worse nutritionally.

Anyway, I don't want to take away from your valid points above. Most people's problem by far is too much processing in foods, both for reducing nutrition and weight gain. I just thought this was a good time to warn people reading this thread against under processing too.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sun Oct 01, 2017 3:26 pm

Nobody wrote:So for weight management on an ad-lib diet, it's how much it's processed, macro ratio and calorie density. Probably in that order. However for the best nutrition absorption, a processing balance needs to be found.

An example of this recently for me is ground linseed. 12g a day sprinkled on my oats seemed like plenty. But I appeared to still be getting symptoms of too little fat in my diet in relation to skin dryness. Anyway, instead of just sprinkling linseed on my oats, I now stir it in and wait some minutes. Since doing that I've noticed an improvement in my skin. So it gets back to it's not so much what you eat, but what you absorb. Same with my veg meal. I could probably eat most of it raw, but I would likely fare worse nutritionally.

Anyway, I don't want to take away from your valid points above. Most people's problem by far is too much processing in foods, both for reducing nutrition and weight gain. I just thought this was a good time to warn people reading this thread against under processing too.


Yes I should avoid using absolutes like don't eat ANY processed food....and there's processing, and processing.
Though my statement was within the context of managing weight and satiation.
To my mind, when I think of processed food I default to thinking of stuff bought in a box off a supermarket shelf, but appreciate the ambiguity.

As I've said before, I ground my seeds and soak too! (and I need to remind myself to soak nuts!)
And I've said before that as we age, our digestive system gets weaker, like every other system in our bodies....and therefore the elderly will benefit more so from cooked foods.

I watched a brilliant university presentation by a top primatologist last week (hang on.....here it is.....about 10 minutes)
https://youtu.be/jGUsMYXdDDc?t=20m4s
about how fire is thought to have been what helped homo sapien sapien evolve and grow in intelligence, because it led to cooking food and getting more nutrients out of it.
Here's a wiki excerpt about the academic

"Wrangham's latest work focuses on the role cooking has played in human evolution. He has argued that cooking food is obligatory for humans as a result of biological adaptations[10][11] and that cooking, in particular the consumption of cooked tubers, might explain the increase in hominid brain sizes, smaller teeth and jaws, and decrease in sexual dimorphism that occurred roughly 1.8 million years ago.[12] Many anthropologists disagree with Wrangham's ideas, pointing out that there is no solid evidence to support Wrangham's claims.[12][13] The mainstream explanation is that human ancestors, prior to the advent of cooking, turned to eating meats, which then caused the evolutionary shift to smaller guts and larger brains.[14]"


And a few highlights:
https://graysintegrativephysiology.blogspot.com.au/2017/10/have-we-evolved-to-eat-cooked-food.html

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