Diet Thread

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Sat Jan 27, 2018 4:56 pm

CKinnard wrote:http://healthyeating.sfgate.com/bioavailability-calcium-spinach-1796.html
(this isn't a study, but I've read other articles by this author and she has been reliable)
kale .50
broccoli .51
bok choy .54
rhubarb .08 (high oxalate content)
spinach .05

Interesting how kale, broccoli & bok choy are all around the same figure, a good on at that. Kinda implies that green vegetables are fairly similar and then spinach blows that idea completely out of the water. I recall there was something that's in spinach, might of been vitamin B12 that requires a trick to get it out, adding salt comes to mind but I'm sure that's wrong.

BTW I see broccoli as the wonder vegetable, its good for you on so many fronts and you can get people to eat it, OK not all of them...

On the home front I'm struggling a little to hold the family vegetable intake level. I need to make them more appealing to them.
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:29 pm

Mike, the spinaches (rhubarb is in that family) have oxalates which bind calcium, and reduce the amount absorbed. From memory if you boil spinach you leech out a lot of oxalates, which improves calcium absorption.
https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/a ... olled-diet

Broccoli (and skinless chicken) has been the real food of bodybuilders for 50 years or more.
Nevertheless, kale and red cabbage are superior in nutrient:energy ratio.
One way to get kids to eat more vege is mix the vege with mashed sweet potato.
potato helps everything go down better with kids.
if taste is the issue, add raw mango (or sultanas), lime juice, and coconut milk in when mixing....and maybe some garlic and ginger when steaming the vege.

it gives a nice Asian flavor.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:47 pm

CKinnard wrote:It still amazes me health authorities persist in dairy being a staple, when it is the most glaring example of white supremacist racism in medicine...

https://www.adventistchip.com/Global/Fa ... 0Davis.pdf

Do places outside the US even matter? :wink:


That last link you posted comes up in windows as a privacy concern.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sat Jan 27, 2018 8:24 pm

Nobody wrote:
CKinnard wrote:It still amazes me health authorities persist in dairy being a staple, when it is the most glaring example of white supremacist racism in medicine...

https://www.adventistchip.com/Global/Fa ... 0Davis.pdf

Do places outside the US even matter? :wink:


That last link you posted comes up in windows as a privacy concern.


Even more so, US race and ethnicity mix is changing rapidly. California is the largest state popn wise in the US. It's public schools are only 26% white. 52% are Hispanic (Hispanics are mostly lactose intolerant).
Within 20 years, there will be more Hispanics than whites in California.
Incidentally, despite all the progressive voices that originate from California, the place has the highest rate of poverty, and the State is insolvent because it cannot fund public service pension obligations into the future.

Re that link, the pdf was there.....I don't worry about those warnings cos I use Linux and Similar to a university library workstation, all writes to my OS are virtual, so I just have to reboot to restore a pristine OS state.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:13 pm

The salt, iodine thing has got me thinking.

Iodine
1. Govt gets iodine added to salt so general population has enough
2. The food industry loads the food with salt not containing iodine (because its cheaper)
3. People stop adding salt to their food because they are getting enough thru manufactured foods
End result is people not getting enough iodine despite getting all the salt they need

Salt
Most people are getting enough sodium chloride even those who sweat a lot every day, such as me. Only a few need to be specific with their intake.
Other salts are a different story, magnesium levels are often low in athletes
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:23 pm

mikesbytes wrote:Salt
Most people are getting enough [too much] sodium chloride even [maybe except] those who sweat a lot every day, such as me. Only a few need to be specific with their intake.
Other salts are a different story, magnesium levels are often low in athletes

Fixed that for ya. :D

AU survey:
The average daily intake of sodium from food was just over 2,404 mg (equivalent to around one teaspoon of table salt). This amount includes sodium naturally present in foods as well as sodium added during processing, but excludes the 'discretionary salt' added by consumers in home prepared foods or 'at the table'. In addition to sodium from food, 64% of Australians reported that they add salt very often or occasionally either during meal preparation or at the table, therefore the true average intake is likely to be significantly higher.
http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf ... 4.0.55.007

Greger made a strong argument for having no added salt by showing that natives in South America who never had salt had blood pressures of 90/60 IIRC. One recent finding is that salt changes the balance of your microbiome, which in turn affects arterial health. So it's not about "curing (hardening) your arteries" directly, but "curing your micobiome".

I only get about 460mg of sodium a day and add about 200g of celery after a ride which adds another 160mg. I find it interesting that our government just updated their recommendations for sodium in 2017 with an adequate intake for adults from 460 to 920mg per day. But that doesn't cover people like you who sweat a lot.
https://www.nrv.gov.au/nutrients/sodium

So in summary. Most people are curing their microbiome, which damages their arterial health, driving up their blood pressure.

I might as well brag that the last two BP measurements (111/71 & 100/60) indicate that my BP has got a bit lower. Probably about 110/70 currently. Not great by African or native South American standards, but ideal for a middle/senior aged male in the US or AU. :mrgreen:

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Fri Feb 02, 2018 1:15 am

good BP Nobody, as long as you can rule out fatigue, higher CNS and conduction disturbances.....which I cannot personally.


Re iodine, here's Klaper's take.
https://youtu.be/6mTs6KC8sqE?t=53s

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Fri Feb 02, 2018 6:53 pm

Thanks CK. I'm subscribed to "Plant Based Science London", but obviously I missed that one.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:07 pm

mikesbytes wrote:The salt, iodine thing has got me thinking.

Iodine
1. Govt gets iodine added to salt so general population has enough
2. The food industry loads the food with salt not containing iodine (because its cheaper)
3. People stop adding salt to their food because they are getting enough thru manufactured foods
End result is people not getting enough iodine despite getting all the salt they need

Salt
Most people are getting enough sodium chloride even those who sweat a lot every day, such as me. Only a few need to be specific with their intake.
Other salts are a different story, magnesium levels are often low in athletes


Mike, I think the govt changed any strong recommendation for adding iodine to salt some years ago. I vaguely remembering more salt on the shelves having iodine added when I was a grommet!

I think the iodine thing is one of the many issues I am going to file as science doesn't know enough yet.
It seems iodine deficiency is much more common than thyroid disturbances, but the former is supposed to cause the latter.
My perspective is disease states probably require multiple micronutrient deficiencies or surpluses in combination with inflammatory or autoimmune activity....so the body may very well be able to kick along for years with one deficiency. Just speculating though.

My other spec. is soil degradation, plant seed 'manipulation', and farming techniques (fertilizer, watering, light, hydroponics) may also be dishing us up inferior and unbalanced plant (and animal parts) nutrition.

Anyway, we've all got an appointment with this fella....


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Re: Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Sat Feb 03, 2018 3:05 pm

If that's the case CK, then lacking iodine isn't a guarantee that your going to get a thyroid problem. Like most things with the human body, its never black and white.

Been a while since I've seen that video, its great. And having them take the cars at the end simply caps it off :)
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:47 pm

mikesbytes wrote:If that's the case CK, then lacking iodine isn't a guarantee that your going to get a thyroid problem. Like most things with the human body, its never black and white.

Been a while since I've seen that video, its great. And having them take the cars at the end simply caps it off :)


Mike, yes the body I think is much more complicated than we'll understand in our life time.
There's lots of wriggle room for many, and not so much for others.
An old US doctor told me 30 years ago she went through the WWII in Poland, and said there were severe food shortages for years, and many pregnant girls went through years eating nothing but tins of condensed milk and a few weeds....and yet they had perfectly healthy babies. She was making the point to counter getting too hung up on this micronutrient or that.
However, I do appreciate long term deficiencies have enough evidence to result in serious disease.

My bias though is that much disease humans feel derives from a more subtle level.....it might be stress and all its downstream effects, which include malabsorption. I say this because I've seen people lifted out of malaise and depression in an instant by some profound change of heart or good news. I've also seen and felt subtle energies around the body for decades, especially with sudden remission from symptoms....energies science is unable to explain at this point. Reiki energy is certainly a real thing and science has no means of sensing it.

As for Mr Death, yes....I'd forgotten about the cars.....all up market euro models mind you. I remember when I first saw the movie.....and that scene had me sore with laughter for days. We need that kind of humor back so much.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:41 am

Pam Popper on lack of benefit from Vit-D and calcium supplements.

https://youtu.be/vwz_lSJO61I?t=2m31s

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:15 am

Nobody wrote:Pam Popper on lack of benefit from Vit-D and calcium supplements.

https://youtu.be/vwz_lSJO61I?t=2m31s


yes.... and D being fat soluble, it's possible to take a toxic dose, which causes hypercalcemia.

sunshine, exercise, and a diet low in acid formation, inflammation, and oxidative stress that doesn't pull calcium out of bones, could be emphasized.

I don't think the medical industry realizes the damage they do to their brand and consumer confidence by denying the overwhelming evidence for WFPB.

There should be more articles like this.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-07-14/e ... an/8710254
Most Aussies are not going to stop meat altogether, but they can still be reinforced constantly to up their whole food plant intake.
The diet wars are unfortunately polarized so that whenever anyone mentions eating more plants, they think you are talking vegan, which most recoil from.

Incidentally, I was sitting at the local Westfield on the weekend, and a lady of Pacific Island appearance sat at the next table. She had a son probably just short of 2yo. When he looked at me, I gave him a smile and funny face, and I got nothing!
Then Mum opens their food court meal and shares with son. It was KFC - lots of chips, and deep fried chicken.
After the meal, the little boy started with the crying and screaming and squirming.
In another era, I'd have kindly engaged the woman, and introduced her to sound nutrition principles and their effect on a child's mood.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Wed Feb 07, 2018 2:09 pm

CKinnard wrote:sunshine, exercise, and a diet low in acid formation, inflammation, and oxidative stress that doesn't pull calcium out of bones, could be emphasized.

Popper doesn't appear to do a lot of that. IIRC she said she is was vegan, but they don't promote it in the Wellness Forum. Probably promote WFPB with some animal products. Although she does talk about cookies now and then, so maybe it's just mostly PB.

CKinnard wrote:I don't think the medical industry realizes the damage they do to their brand and consumer confidence by denying the overwhelming evidence for WFPB.

Well I for one am not their biggest fan. IMO most are pretty wound up in their own brilliance and that's a difficult point to learn from. I'm more concerned about their blinded loyal supporters than the medication salesmen themselves. Even when presented with the results of a good diet, it seems to have little to no effect.

CKinnard wrote:Most Aussies are not going to stop meat altogether, but they can still be reinforced constantly to up their whole food plant intake.
The diet wars are unfortunately polarized so that whenever anyone mentions eating more plants, they think you are talking vegan, which most recoil from.

Yes I heard about some vegans attacking a steak house recently and thought that does nothing for their movement long term. It's actions like that that make me disassociate from the label. The nurses at my local hospital have labelled my card/chart "vegan". Although I didn't object to it, I don't like it. I'd prefer it said "nil by mouth" since I never accept anything after a bleed.

CKinnard wrote:...In another era, I'd have kindly engaged the woman, and introduced her to sound nutrition principles and their effect on a child's mood.

In the era where someone would happily accept caring counsel from a stranger, was so long ago that there likely wouldn't have been the problems you saw. IRL I'm tending to keep my mouth shut and mind my own business, in the hope that others will do the same. No one is paying me to make my life more difficult by mentioning this stuff and I'm likely to shut down people pretty fast who start with the "wheredoya'getya'brotein?".
I've found the following questions effective:
Do you know how much protein you are supposed to get in a day?
Do you know how much protein you actually get a day?

Once they've come back with no to both questions, I inform them how many g/kg of BW they should get according to the WHO and how much as a ratio compared to that they are likely getting. After that they usually decide they are out of their depth and back off. You could say I'm tired of ignorant self appointed nutritionists telling me how to run my life. If they could actually teach me something, then my response might be different. :)

I believe my questioning is similar to, but a bit more polite than:
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It does nothing for vegans. It makes vegans look rude or hostile, which is already how many in the world perceive them. I'd better start eating some animal products so I can become a better person. :wink:

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:26 pm

Nobody wrote:Popper doesn't appear to do a lot of that. IIRC she said she is was vegan, but they don't promote it in the Wellness Forum. Probably promote WFPB with some animal products. Although she does talk about cookies now and then, so maybe it's just mostly PB.


I was under the impression Popper was WFPB - what i like about the term is the 'based', meaning there's room for small amounts of animal bits. As I've said before, in my dealings with a general clinic load, most would not entertain giving up animal bits, but will up their vege. I was pleased when Dean Ornish came out with his spectrum idea. It was a great step towards non polarity in promoting healthier nutrition.

Very true about many doctors being blinded by their halos.
I rarely meet a doc who has had a chronic disease....but I can say from personal experience it changes your perspective on lots.
I better be careful what I say, but the halo effect was very strong at TNH. G, K, and L all disappointed in that respect.
I had an email exchange with Dr. L a few days ago, which reminded me how bad it is.

Re that vegan protest the other day, yeah I cringed. It will achieve the exact opposite of what they want.
It's ridiculous they don't have anyone older and wiser to guide their passion.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:59 pm

Agree that being negative isn't a positive way to promote, even is the statement is true, ie that most people don't know their needs and don't know how to administer that need.

I know someone who is considering taking this supplement. Any risks come to mind, apart from wasting your money?

https://nei.nih.gov/areds2/PatientFAQ
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:39 pm

I read about AREDS about 4 mths ago.
My take home is to clean and optimize your diet before turning to these supplements....and get your bodyfat % optimized as well.
Then lead a healthier lifestyle overall.

No point taking supps after a hamburger and french fries, cos you are still facing the same risk of a cardiovascular disease incident.

From the link
"The high levels of vitamins and minerals are difficult to achieve from diet alone. However, previous studies have suggested that people who have diets rich in green, leafy vegetables—a good source of lutein/zeaxanthin—have a lower risk of developing AMD. In the AREDS2 trial, the people who seemed to benefit most from taking lutein/zeaxanthin were those who did not get much of these nutrients in their diet. Within this group, those who received lutein/zeaxanthin supplements had a 26 percent reduced risk of developing advanced AMD compared with those who did not receive the supplements."

So I just blanched big bunches of savoy spinach, kale, and beetroot greens...and stuck them in the freezer. will be gone within 10 days.
Smash the leafy greens, orange, red, and purple stuff, and your eyes will last longer.

Incidentally, I think one of the most sensitive tests of aging rate is your special senses - esp vision and hearing.
Low back pain is also a fav due to the lumbar disc's poor direct blood supply.
Another is declarative memory (ability to remember a lot of objects a day or week or month later).

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:58 pm

Thanks CK, appreciate that. What you have written CK isn't too far off what this elderly person said, just remove the science. In their 90's, mind still sharp, not over weight, no back issues, good diet (from what I've seen), good hearing, poor balance, eye sight going.

I'm gathering from your response is that there no harm in taking this supplement as prescribed?
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:37 pm

mikesbytes wrote:Thanks CK, appreciate that. What you have written CK isn't too far off what this elderly person said, just remove the science. In their 90's, mind still sharp, not over weight, no back issues, good diet (from what I've seen), good hearing, poor balance, eye sight going.

I'm gathering from your response is that there no harm in taking this supplement as prescribed?


there's no harm in trying apart from having less money in the bank.
and the study alludes that the supplement doesn't have a strong positive effect for people who have been eating a seriously good diet with a lot of those things in the supp.
and keep in mind the supplement was only tested for macular degeneration, not other eye diseases afaik.

the only thing I can suggest to improve the subject's quality of life is to get into serious balance and strength training.
can all be done at home, just progressed smart and safe. a recumbent bike too if they are inclined.
there will be enough blood flow and stimulation from that to help the eyes.
they might need a talking to as well about going to bed earlier and waking earlier. they might be reading or watching tele excessively.
many believe you just stay up later and don't get as much sleep as you age. that's not true. I've worked with older people who have been on a farm all their lives, and still live on it with their adult children. They still do chores. These people don't stay up late, and they are up at sunrise as always. The issue is people living in the burbs just don't connect with the land, growing stuff, and tending animals, as much as our forefathers.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:45 pm

mmm... I'll ask about the macular degeneration

Thanks CK
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:39 am

mikesbytes wrote:mmm... I'll ask about the macular degeneration

Thanks CK


Yes it is macular degeneration
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:21 am

CKinnard wrote:I was under the impression Popper was WFPB - what i like about the term is the 'based', meaning there's room for small amounts of animal bits.

I found this on her personal site.
http://truthinmedicine.typepad.com/truth_in_medicine/2017/05/dr-pams-food-journal.html
To some extent it confirms what I thought she said. No animal bits.

CKinnard wrote:As I've said before, in my dealings with a general clinic load, most would not entertain giving up animal bits, but will up their vege. I was pleased when Dean Ornish came out with his spectrum idea. It was a great step towards non polarity in promoting healthier nutrition.

Fair enough. The spectrum idea appears workable for most. I think some personalities like myself suit the Goldhamer approach which treats people who have trouble controlling their food addictions like alcoholics. In other words, requiring total abstinence.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Thu Feb 08, 2018 10:59 am

Nobody wrote:I think some personalities like myself suit the Goldhamer approach which treats people who have trouble controlling their food addictions like alcoholics. In other words, requiring total abstinence. You also may be one of them.


Goldhamer's is one perspective. labeling something one does infrequently an addiction is stretching it.
definition of addiction : a compulsive engagement in rewarding stimuli despite adverse consequences.
definition of compulsive : an irresistible urge.

I think the diet science won't be in the bag until it is shown WFPB unreservedly delivers better longevity advantage than observed in meat inclusive Blue Zones, across multiple generations. And that's not going to happen in our life times.

In the meantime, 100% conviction to WFPB requires a tad of blind faith, unconsciously filling in the science knowledge gaps...which I can personally do, consciously.

If one is committed 100% to WFPB based on the science, I think it is wise to appreciate the limits of the scientific evidence to date.
Otherwise, in the face of conflicting science about the effects of a low carb diet, one is likely to respond irrationally.

My experience is many people invest excessive power in what an optimal diet can achieve, and this unconsciously lowers their prioritization of the importance of other lifestyle choices, and life purpose and meaning.
The WFPB group I joined this year is full of this magical and distorted thinking.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:15 pm

mikesbytes wrote:
mikesbytes wrote:mmm... I'll ask about the macular degeneration

Thanks CK


Yes it is macular degeneration


ok, and right on queue in my utube subscriptions this morning:

diet recommendations for AMD (summarized as "fish, green, and gold")
https://youtu.be/YT_0oSieal4?t=17m25s

about supplements for AMD (if diet is as described above, supplements offer no advantage)
https://youtu.be/YT_0oSieal4?t=20m53s

This guy is sticking to the small amount of literature in his diet recommendations though. i.e. fish 3 times a week is from one study, and I don't know if studies have been done of

If you are inclined, the video's explanation of AMD pathophysiology is very good.

edit:
some good stuff I found in 5 minutes:
https://www.drfuhrman.com/learn/health- ... generation
https://nutritionfacts.org/video/preven ... with-diet/
https://nutritionfacts.org/video/dietar ... eneration/

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:24 pm

CKinnard wrote:
Nobody wrote:I think some personalities like myself suit the Goldhamer approach which treats people who have trouble controlling their food addictions like alcoholics. In other words, requiring total abstinence. You also may be one of them.


Goldhamer's is one perspective. labeling something one does infrequently an addiction is stretching it.
definition of addiction : a compulsive engagement in rewarding stimuli despite adverse consequences.
definition of compulsive : an irresistible urge.

First up apologies. That last bit "You also may be one of them" I removed. But you quoted before I removed them. I actually thought about whether you'd quoted it already, knowing you're usually fairly quick to reply. I write a lot of rubbish (thoughts) initially, but some of it gets edited out before the first post. Some after it's too late. :oops:

CKinnard wrote:I think the diet science won't be in the bag until it is shown WFPB unreservedly delivers better longevity advantage than observed in meat inclusive Blue Zones, across multiple generations. And that's not going to happen in our life times.

In the meantime, 100% conviction to WFPB requires a tad of blind faith, unconsciously filling in the science knowledge gaps...which I can personally do, consciously.

I'm going to respectfully disagree and say that it may be faith, but it's not blind. Blind faith would require faith in something without any evidence related to it. We have evidence, it's just not holistic or overly conclusive yet. AFAIK everything I put in my mouth has scientific evidence saying it's good for me. It's just a matter of whether I'm getting the balance correct for optimal longevity. I would say not at this stage, but like you said, there is too little evidence of a clear path yet.

Some of the gaps I see for the most part still remaining relating to WFPO SOS free:
Is too low a sodium level going to be a longevity disadvantage?
Is EPA/DHA supplementation necessary? If so, for who and from what age?
Iodine supplementation?
Is too low, or too high a fat level going to prove to be a longevity disadvantage? What is really the optimum fat level?
Is too much protein going to prove to be a longevity disadvantage?

When I speak of longevity, I'm really only concerned about health span. Longevity being a necessary side effect. In reality, if I didn't wake up tomorrow I wouldn't consider it a tragedy. :|

These questions don't keep me up at night and some will be highly dependent on genetics. But I'm going to act on some of them from the evidence we see so far.

CKinnard wrote:If one is committed 100% to WFPB based on the science, I think it is wise to appreciate the limits of the scientific evidence to date.

Agree.

CKinnard wrote:My experience is many people invest excessive power in what an optimal diet can achieve, and this unconsciously lowers their prioritization of the importance of other lifestyle choices, and life purpose and meaning.

I agree and I can't say it doesn't affect my life.

CKinnard wrote:The WFPB group I joined this year is full of this magical and distorted thinking.

That might keep you busy trying to sorting them out then. :wink:

I admit that I was probably more down that line of thinking earlier, but you, enough time and more evidence has sorted me out to some degree. :)

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