Diet Thread

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Nobody
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:08 am

mikesbytes wrote:In regards to the rare genetic condition, how do I know I don't have rare genetic condition that will kill me if I eat too many vegetables?

Do you know of any? I know that certain veg can be a problem with certain medications, but that is a dietitian/nutritionist's speciality. Working with people with particular medical conditions.

mikesbytes wrote:The ultimate answer perhaps is that we should be tested for absolutely everything.

Expensive initially, but IMO cheaper and less stressful in the long run than finding out when the damage has been done.

mikesbytes wrote:Oh and perhaps a better way to describe doctors is to say that they haven't advanced as far as they should. What they should be doing with patients that have issues that are likely to have been caused by poor nutrition is referring them to the relevant specialist, in this case a dietitian. Follow up (when they return to the doctor) is to ask them if they have followed up on the nutritionist's advice.


In an ideal world the dietitian/nutritionist would be educated differently and not recommending unhealthy food to sick people. Instead of the current advice of not excluding any food groups of which dairy (or alternatives) is one. Their current teachings are not based on the body of modern nutritional science. If it was then "lean meats and poultry, fish, eggs" and dairy would be out. You don't need meat. You don't need dairy or the alternatives. Have you ever known anyone who was protein or calcium deficient while getting enough calories? All you really need for optimum health is fruit & veg and some nuts & seeds. Even grains and legumes are optional.

In an ideal world the doctor would be referring most people to a properly educated dietitian first.
In an ideal world most people would be properly educated in school about ideal diet and other ideal values and therefore most people would be unlikely to need the doctor unless they were injured or had an acute illness.
The problem here is the prioritising of profit/money/business/industry over peoples' well-being and health. This has been ingrained in our culture because of the multi-generational influence of industries, which the governments appear to be powerless to stop or reverse. I get the impression that governments think that the country would implode unless industries are making maximum profit as a priority over almost anything else. Which is what the industries want the governments to believe, so their self-seeking mission has been accomplished.

mikesbytes wrote:As to who to blame, I've heard this analogy;
Take a class of students, if one student is doing badly we can blame the student but if 60% of the class is doing badly then we can blame the teacher. So who is the teacher when it comes to food, its primarily advertising

If the primary problem is dietary education, then the governments are to blame for not providing the correct dietary education in schools and also not restricting the alternative forms of "education" from industry filling that dietary education vacuum with misinformation.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:02 pm

I thought some might find this video interesting, even though there isn't anything particularly new about the information for those who have been reading this or the other thread for some time.



I don't fully agree with everything McDougall has to say about his diet being ideal, although I do agree with the notion of relative diet simplicity. For example I think one can do better long term by paying attention to getting enough of the correct fats and making sure you get some possibly lacking vitamins and minerals. Whether by better food choices or supplementation. In other words I think he sugar coats the message to a degree. There can be some problems associated with plant based diets. However, there are usually more problems associated with a standard diet long term. But we in western society accept those as a normal part of ageing if one has "bad genetics" for whatever those conditions turn out to be.

McDougall also talks about the significant benefits Kempner got for his patients using diet. But he doesn't mention the severity of dietary restrictions imposed to achieve those results. More on that in the video below.


CKinnard
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:36 pm

Nobody wrote:
mikesbytes wrote:In regards to the rare genetic condition, how do I know I don't have rare genetic condition that will kill me if I eat too many vegetables?

Do you know of any? I know that certain veg can be a problem with certain medications, but that is a dietitian/nutritionist's speciality. Working with people with particular medical conditions.


Rare genetic conditions anyone embarking on a WFPB diet could be adversely effected by:

- hereditary fructose intolerance. they get very sick and can die as infants when they eat any form of fructose including fruit.

- warfarin and Vitamin K1 (in leafy greens in abundance). Doctors often tell patients not to touch leafy greens if they have been prescribed warfarin. THis is rubbish. A person can increase their intake of leafy greens, but they then need to get a blood test done to adjust their warfarin dosage to match the new healthier diet. Vitamin K1 interferes with warfarin's potency. Joel Fuhrman says most people prescribed warfarin should come off it and take aspirin and eat a healthier diet instead.
https://www.veganlifestylecoach.com/cou ... ased-diet/

- fodmaps many people benefit from avoiding short chain carbs.


many plants are extremely toxic for all of us - hemlock, belladonna, white snakeroot, castor beans (ricin), rosary pea, oleander (a neighbor was killed by this when I was young), tobacco plant (can be fatal if eaten due to nicotine and anabasine), angel's trumpets, strychnine tree, english yew, wolfsbane.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:30 pm

CKinnard wrote:Rare genetic conditions anyone embarking on a WFPB diet could be adversely effected by:

- hereditary fructose intolerance. they get very sick and can die as infants when they eat any form of fructose including fruit.

- warfarin and Vitamin K1 (in leafy greens in abundance). Doctors often tell patients not to touch leafy greens if they have been prescribed warfarin. THis is rubbish. A person can increase their intake of leafy greens, but they then need to get a blood test done to adjust their warfarin dosage to match the new healthier diet. Vitamin K1 interferes with warfarin's potency. Joel Fuhrman says most people prescribed warfarin should come off it and take aspirin and eat a healthier diet instead.
https://www.veganlifestylecoach.com/cou ... ased-diet/

- fodmaps many people benefit from avoiding short chain carbs.

Thanks for clarifying.

As for warfarin. Since Ratsak are still using it for an active ingredient in rodent poison, Furhman's seems valid enough to me.

I've also heard that eating too many plants while getting chemo can be problematic as there is too much cell protection happening.

I know someone who is on a fodmap diet who claims to have IBS. He has an application on his tablet which he showed me. It details specifically why certain foods can't be eaten. It looks complicated. I know he won't try plant based, but I wondered if once his microbiome is changed, whether it would continue to be so complicated for him. Like me with the summer to winter comparison. At the moment I'm eating most of the foods I can't eat in winter because of the reactions. Time will tell if it continues to be a problem this winter.

So we can say that almost everyone is safe with veg. As for the list of toxic plants, I doubt I'll find any of them at the supermarket. :)

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:43 pm

I point out the downside of plants in case WFPB people get a bit too generic.
OTOH, plants have provided the majority of medicines, not animals.
All in all it is a trivial topic, when low carbers want to pillory all plants because some are toxic.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Baalzamon » Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:05 am

CKinnard wrote:I point out the downside of plants in case WFPB people get a bit too generic.
OTOH, plants have provided the majority of medicines, not animals.
All in all it is a trivial topic, when low carbers want to pillory all plants because some are toxic.


No them be the 0 carbers. Full on carnivores and you should see the N+1 experiment Jimmy Moore is doing right now. 270 protein, 90 fat and he is full on getting gluconeogenesis happening and blood sugar crashes.
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CKinnard
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sat Apr 07, 2018 5:05 pm

Baalzamon wrote:
CKinnard wrote:I point out the downside of plants in case WFPB people get a bit too generic.
OTOH, plants have provided the majority of medicines, not animals.
All in all it is a trivial topic, when low carbers want to pillory all plants because some are toxic.


No them be the 0 carbers. Full on carnivores and you should see the N+1 experiment Jimmy Moore is doing right now. 270 protein, 90 fat and he is full on getting gluconeogenesis happening and blood sugar crashes.


I've watched a few of Jimmy Moore's views on diet. He might have once lost a lot of weight and sold a lot of books, but I am convinced of the very low ceiling on his intellect and nutritional knowledge.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Patt0 » Sat Apr 07, 2018 8:24 pm

CKinnard wrote:
Baalzamon wrote:
CKinnard wrote:I point out the downside of plants in case WFPB people get a bit too generic.
OTOH, plants have provided the majority of medicines, not animals.
All in all it is a trivial topic, when low carbers want to pillory all plants because some are toxic.


No them be the 0 carbers. Full on carnivores and you should see the N+1 experiment Jimmy Moore is doing right now. 270 protein, 90 fat and he is full on getting gluconeogenesis happening and blood sugar crashes.


I've watched a few of Jimmy Moore's views on diet. He might have once lost a lot of weight and sold a lot of books, but I am convinced of the very low ceiling on his intellect and nutritional knowledge.

I will agree with you on that.
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Patt0 » Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:40 pm

https://instagram.com/p/BhTZE3nlt2j/

Not 100% carnivore. Some fermented barley there.

If I keep this up I may miss the prize for “the oldest in the nursing home”
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Patt0 » Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:40 pm

https://instagram.com/p/BhTZE3nlt2j/

Not 100% carnivore. Some fermented barley there.

If I keep this up I may miss the prize for “the oldest in the nursing home”
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Baalzamon » Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:27 pm

Example of what happened in jimmy moore's last week experiment
https://www.instagram.com/p/BhE8n3UF8L5
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sun Apr 08, 2018 10:40 pm

Patt0 wrote:https://instagram.com/p/BhTZE3nlt2j/

Not 100% carnivore. Some fermented barley there.
The food doesn't look cheap. But I suppose that's why diet related illnesses aren't common in central Africa.

Patt0 wrote:If I keep this up I may miss [get] the prize for “the oldest [longest stay] in the nursing home”
Another possibility to look forward to.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Patt0 » Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:10 pm

When I wanted to try the Keto diet it seemed to be a little complicated for my simple nature. Could I find a simple path? Well I did. Carnivore. Five months now without bringing any harm to those or their offspring, which provide me oxygen.

So when I found this vid I thought I would share. Also justifies protein phobes as well.


https://youtu.be/z3fO5aTD6JU
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CKinnard
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:47 pm

Patt0 wrote:So when I found this vid I thought I would share. Also justifies protein phobes as well.


Hopefully within the next 20 years, Ben will move on from his obsession with two hormones, and consider the longevity aspect of diet....which will be the best metric of a health promoting diet, in our life times!

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Mon Apr 09, 2018 4:38 pm

CKinnard wrote:Hopefully within the next 20 years, Ben will move on from his obsession with two hormones, and consider the longevity aspect of diet....which will be the best metric of a health promoting diet, in our life times!

He's a scientist. So I doubt he'll ever get out of reductionist mode to see the bigger picture.

For those who haven't seen the video, Ben's message was to get 1 to 2 g/kg of BW which is nothing new. Andrew Perlot did a video on it recently which I posted in the PBD thread. Ben promotes meat, but I doubt the microbiome changes that occur because of this and their conversion of choline into TMA (then the liver oxidises to TMAO) are going to stop just because one is regulating carbs. IMO anyone who plays with an animal product and oil heavy diet should get their cholesterol and inflammation markers (like hsCRP) checked.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:15 pm

Nobody wrote:IMO anyone who plays with an animal product and oil heavy diet should get their cholesterol and inflammation markers (like hsCRP) checked.


add to that
F2-Isoprostanes
Oxidized LDL
asymmetric and symmetric dimethylarginine
Myeloperoxidase
Lipoprotein-associated phospholipase A2 activity
microalbumin

which Ben must be yet to hear of. Reductionist scientists just don't read outside their little boxes much.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sun Apr 15, 2018 11:05 pm

For those who want to know what to expect if they take their carnivorous tendencies to the extreme.



By the way, both my glucose and total cholesterol are significantly lower than Ryan's. We are about the same age. From his videos it looks like Ryan eats a fair amount of junk processed vegan food on occasion. IMO he would have made a better argument by comparing average vegan levels for BG and TC to Dr carnivore.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:09 am

Nobody wrote:By the way, both my glucose and total cholesterol are significantly lower than Ryan's. We are about the same age. From his videos it looks like Ryan eats a fair amount of junk processed vegan food on occasion. IMO he would have made a better argument by comparing average vegan levels for BG and TC to Dr carnivore.


In general I find US vegans (like Aussie) to follow WFPB principles poorly.
They are so into dining out that they often are into the SOS and refined carbs commercially prepared food favors.
If DurianRider and followers are any example... refined sugar, white rice, flour products, processed packets of instant food....rarely preparing meals from scratch at home... Though Ryan is not as bad.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:39 am

CKinnard wrote:....
In general I find US vegans (like Aussie) to follow WFPB principles poorly.
They are so into dining out that they often are into the SOS and refined carbs commercially prepared food favors.
If DurianRider and followers are any example... refined sugar, white rice, flour products, processed packets of instant food....rarely preparing meals from scratch at home... Though Ryan is not as bad.


Sounds like the typical Aussie diet, just add meat and booze
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby march83 » Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:57 am

As an anecdote, I only lose weight when I don't eat out. If I eat below maintenance for 5 days a week (Monday though Friday) and just do whatever I want on the weekends I typically just maintain weight despite doing lots of exercise. It's very easy to consume back the week's deficit in a weekend eating out when all the food is liberally dosed with oils and salt.

Satiety signals are distorted I think when A) you are accustomed to never being totally full and B) when you get used to getting full without salt, oils and fats.
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:57 am

march83 wrote:Satiety signals are distorted I think when A) you are accustomed to never being totally full and B) when you get used to getting full without salt, oils and fats.


No doubt satiety signaling is multi-factorial and not well understood.

I've been doing crazy workload for the last 2-3 months, and my appetite and energy are all over the place.
I have to accept age, stress, and CFS sequela (disrupted sleep) are combined influences.

Nevertheless, I know my situation would be much improved if, when stress and time pressure builds, I drop lower priority pursuits, and elevate health priorities dramatically....thereby meeting unsustainable scenarios with a reinforced sense of what is most important.

This is a hard lesson for me, and no doubt most. It is like having had enough money never to really stick to a strict household financial budget, but then needing to do so. I am seeing a lot of Gen x,y,z's currently, f/t dual income households many with kids, who all commute around 2 hours a day. Relaxation and socializing revolves very much around eating out....

The time and energy demands on many these days are much more severe than when I was young, due very much to commute pressures and additional work hours.

Anyway, the only solution is to reflect more seriously on life meaning, pull back from the world a bit, and have the courage to do things better.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:42 pm

CKinnard wrote:In general I find US vegans (like Aussie) to follow WFPB principles poorly.
They are so into dining out that they often are into the SOS and refined carbs commercially prepared food favors.
If DurianRider and followers are any example... refined sugar, white rice, flour products, processed packets of instant food....rarely preparing meals from scratch at home... Though Ryan is not as bad.

DR can be laughable at times, so Ryan not being as bad is only relative. My point is if you have a YouTube channel called "Happy Healthy Vegan", then to some extent you are holding yourself up as an example to others. He is not doing that well in regard to overall health IMO.

In regard to Ryan having a TC last tested at 5.0 and typically 4.0. My son has a TC of 4.0 and he eats a standard diet and has a BMI of about 37. But he is only 19 yo. Mine is 3.4, but I started at 6.5, so I appear to have a higher set point. It looks like Ryan has a higher set point too, but when the the Framingham study says 3.9 is the upper limit before atherosclerosis affects those genetically disposed, 5.0 just doesn't cut it as healthy.

As for BG, I'm 4.3. Ryan's 4.7 is OK (5.5 is the limit of normal), but again I think he could do better.

If I was the worst example of health around then there would be relatively few people in need of medical care for chronic illnesses. I just think the standards for what is considered healthy should be higher. Ryan isn't helping to raise those standards as well as he could be IMO.

CKinnard
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:40 pm

Nobody wrote:If I was the worst example of health around then there would be relatively few people in need of medical care for chronic illnesses. I just think the standards for what is considered healthy should be higher. Ryan isn't helping to raise those standards as well as he could be IMO.


My point was to highlight vegans should not be mistaken for eating a healthy PBWF diet.
Dietitians and LCHF devotees attack PBWF by using vegan studies as representative of it.
Veganism does not equal PBWF.

And Ryan is familiar enough with the PBWF gurus to know what is a better diet.
As for DR, well it's likely he is currently causing more harm than good.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:26 pm

CKinnard wrote:My point was to highlight vegans should not be mistaken for eating a healthy PBWF diet.

Good point. He doesn't specify whole foods in his title, but does refer to them.

CKinnard wrote:Dietitians and LCHF devotees attack PBWF by using vegan studies as representative of it.
Veganism does not equal PBWF.

Yes, low blow. As usual, money compromises peoples' principles.

CKinnard wrote:And Ryan is familiar enough with the PBWF gurus to know what is a better diet.

Yes, he often delves into the science. Which makes it disappointing when they do so many junk food videos. Hence my criticism.

CKinnard wrote:As for DR, well it's likely he is currently causing more harm than good.

I'll take your word for it. It's been a fair while since I've watched his videos. I'm over the drama.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:01 pm



Mic does a vid on Dr carnivore with a bit more detail. What I like about some of these videos are the interesting studies they find. This recent study has two interesting graphs.

I found the one below particularly interesting because not only does it show the relative percentage of people who have problems at certain LDL-C levels. But it also shows how people at even low levels - lower than my 77 mg/dL or 2.0 mmol/L - can still be affected. A LDL-C below 60 mg/dL or 1.55 mmol/L appears to be the only truly safe level regardless of one's genetics. And we know that you usually don't know if you have bad genetics for something until the symptoms arrive.
The study shows that the current normal LDL-C minimum (1.7 mmol/L or 65.7 mg/dL) is higher than the maximum level for everyone to avoid atherosclerosis. Which should give some perspective on how out of touch the normal range levels are.
Cholesterol converter here for those who want to make some sense of it.
Image

I find the graph below interesting because it shows you can still have problems with a CAC (Coronary Artery Calcification) score of 1 or less.
Subclinical atherosclerosis was defined as the presence of atherosclerotic plaques by vascular ultrasound or CAC score >=1

Image

For those who want to know what ilio-femeral is:
https://medicinetoday.com.au/sites/default/files/cpd/MT2014-06-049-ROBINSON.pdf

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