Diet Thread

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Thu Sep 27, 2018 6:57 pm

Just because you’re thin, doesn’t mean you’re healthy - The Conversation

Many people use low body weight to excuse unhealthy eating and physical inactivity. But body weight is not the best indicator of internal well-being. A much better indicator is your diet. When it comes to your health, it’s what’s on the inside that counts and you really are what you eat.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sun Sep 30, 2018 9:44 pm


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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sun Sep 30, 2018 10:27 pm

Interesting CK. Thanks for posting.

I've found a lot of bananas will add weight for me. Probably a combination of higher sugars with higher Cal density. I deliberately avoid Pink Lady apples as I think they are too sweet and I don't like their texture. I eat Royal Gala instead, which are probably still sweeter than apples years ago. The oranges I'm currently eating don't seem that sweet. Lately I only eat watermelon if someone else buys it in the household.
As usual, it appears the answer to many nutritional problems is green leafy. Too bad they are off limits for me (due to my excessive iron absorption of them and haemochomatosis problem).
Last edited by Nobody on Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:44 am


Interesting article, thanks for posting. I guess it bears the question why humans are exempt from this issue, true we have a different native diet to the other primates. I suspect that only 0.1% of the population eats too much fruit despite its increased sugar content

In regards to banana's, the article mentions wild banana's having more seed content. I had heard that wild banana's were inedible and the only reason we have edible banana's is due to breeding. Is that incorrect?
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:01 am

mikesbytes wrote:In regards to banana's, the article mentions wild banana's having more seed content. I had heard that wild banana's were inedible and the only reason we have edible banana's is due to breeding. Is that incorrect?


I can't say it any better than Christina
https://youtu.be/BMOjVYgYaG8 starting 9m40s

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:02 am

mikesbytes wrote:In regards to banana's, the article mentions wild banana's having more seed content. I had heard that wild banana's were inedible and the only reason we have edible banana's is due to breeding. Is that incorrect?


I can't say it any better than Christina
https://youtu.be/BMOjVYgYaG8?t=9m40s

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:09 am

mikesbytes wrote:

I guess it bears the question why humans are exempt from this issue, true we have a different native diet to the other primates. I suspect that only 0.1% of the population eats too much fruit despite its increased sugar content

Greger did a video showing that humans can't eat too much fruit. For health detriment over the short term anyway. More than half of my diet is fruit and I'm not exactly stacking on the weight with a BMI of 20.7. Despite the low amount of exercise I do by BNA standards. I find the higher the fruit content of my diet, the thinner I get. Even with more total calories. I just tend to restrict the types of fruit that may be more weight problematic for me, like dried fruit, or lots of bananas. To clarify, watermelon isn't a weight problem for me. But there are likely better food choices for reason of nutrition, considering I can get through 5 kg of watermelon a day.

I've seen that humans appear to be a match with fruit eating animals. So to me it's no surprise that we do better on fruit than most animals.
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:08 am

That was a failure, made vegetable fritters and they aren't up to scratch, have pounded them with pepper to make them edible. Lesson learned is to read a few recipes online prior to making your own recipe
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:42 am

mikesbytes wrote:That was a failure, made vegetable fritters and they aren't up to scratch, have pounded them with pepper to make them edible. Lesson learned is to read a few recipes online prior to making your own recipe


Jeff Novick Bean Burgers
Ingredients
2 cans Kidney Beans, Low Sodium (~400g)
1 cup Rolled Oats
1 cup Brown Rice (cooked)
1/4 cup Tomato Sauce
1/2 tsp Garlic Powder
1/2 tsp Onion Powder
1/2 tsp Mrs Dash Seasoning

Instructions
Rinse and drain the beans thoroughly and then place them in a large bowl.
Mash them well until you almost got refried beans. It’s ok to leave some chunks in.
Add the oatmeal, rice, sauce, and spices.
Hand mix
shape into patties.
put in fridge for 20 mins for ingredients to bind and firm up.
Grill both sides (5 min or so) to get those lovely grill marks

If you want to add more vege (carrot zucchini etc), then you usually need a binder like egg, or you can use 1 tablespoon of ground seeds left in 3 tablespoons of water for >=10 minutes to emulate an egg's binding properties.
i.e.

Black bean and zucchini burger
1 cup cooked brown rice
2 x 400g cans black beans, drained & rinsed
2 eggs, large [substitute with 2x "seed eggs"
3/4 cup grated zucchini, liquid squeezed out
1 grated or finely chopped medium onion
2 large garlic cloves, crushed
1 cup oat flour (or blended rolled oats) or whole grain breadcrumbs
1 tsp salt
1 tsp cumin
1 tsp chili

Instructions:
mash beans roughly
add other ingredients
hand mix well
make patties
rest
store for use.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Tue Oct 02, 2018 9:21 am

Now that the weather is warming up, and after I put on a few kg when working in the cold, my diet has been influenced by the following:

I used to not trust Joel Fuhrman as much as other WFPB gurus. However, the more I listen to him the more I see he is genuinely well read and experienced in the field.
His general diet advice is,
- ensure at least 1 but preferably 2 meals a day include a large salad that is eaten FIRST.

He uses this acronym to highlight more desirable plants:
G BOMBS
Greens
Beans
Onions (some raw)
Mushrooms
Berries
Seeds

As I'm trying to cut a bit of weight, I am smashing the salads for lunch and dinner, and adding a vegan chili or a nut dressing.

Dressing (into blender until smooth-ish. This is enough for 2-3 salads)
1 cup cashews
2 oranges
1/4 cup of seeds (sesame, flax, or chia)
40-60 mls of vinegar (apple cider or balsamic)
water to thin

vegan chili
I have several recipes and fused into this roughly:
2 cups soaked overnight chick peas
2 cups red lentils
1/4-1/2 cup quinoa or teff (optional for thickening)
1 diced onion
1-2 diced medium sweet potato (depends whether you want the chili more as a protein base or rounded meal)
1 red capsicum
1 green capsicum
1-2 cups of celery
4 crushed garlic
1-2 chopped chili
2 400g cans crushed or diced tomatoes
2 tblspns tomato paste
60ml apple cider vinegar
spices (1 tspn each of seeds - cumin, coriander, mustard; 1 tspn each tumeric and curry powders, 1 ground cinnamon stick)

Instructions
heat saucepan saute onion garlic chili for 2-3 mins, add vege for another 2 mins stirring, add the rest of the ingredients with enough water to cover by about 2cm. bring to boil, then reduce to simmer. every 3-5 mins stir and ensure adequate water. Total cooking time should be no more than 20 mins. (I do mine in a pressure cooker for 8 minutes with slow release)

let rest for at least 15 minutes before eating. tastes better the next day.
serve with coriander leaves, avocado, and lemon juice....and your favorite carb and vege/salad.



My new breakfast, though I only have brekky 3-4x a week
1/4 cup (40g) buckwheat seeds
2 tblspns of ground flax or chia seeds
lemon and/or orange rind
1/2-1 cup of frozen berries
cinnamon powder

first 3 ingredients into saucepan with 3/4 cup water, bring to boil and simmer for about 10-15mins.
turn off. add other ingredients. put lid on and let rest for at least 5mins.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:27 pm

CKinnard wrote:I used to not trust Joel Fuhrman as much as other WFPB gurus. However, the more I listen to him the more I see he is genuinely well read and experienced in the field.

My trust of any of them is limited because the science is limited. IMO on the surface he appears on par with McDougall with the level of monetising of the message. That's just a very superficial observation. I agree that he appears well read and well practiced. He brings up the outlier cases in his interviews. The ones he believes that often fare better eating meat. Maybe that's why he appears to be a bit of a pariah among the WFPB gurus. I haven't read any of his books, but I still believe Greger's book is most likely the best out there currently.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Tue Oct 02, 2018 4:51 pm

Nobody wrote:My trust of any of them is limited because the science is limited. IMO on the surface he appears on par with McDougall with the level of monetising of the message. That's just a very superficial observation. I agree that he appears well read and well practiced. He brings up the outlier cases in his interviews. The ones he believes that often fare better eating meat. Maybe that's why he appears to be a bit of a pariah among the WFPB gurus. I haven't read any of his books, but I still believe Greger's book is most likely the best out there currently.


And I look to trust them to know the limits of the science.

Where Greger and his books disappoint - his Daily Dozen is not inclusive of a 130kg diesel mechanic working out back of Bourke.
The Dozen has about 1200 Calories with the serves recommended.
If I was going to elevate myself to a WFPB authority, I wouldn't be excluding manual worker males.

As a matter of fact, there's probably a 50,000+ sales book in presenting WFPB specifically to men.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:38 pm

CKinnard wrote:Where Greger and his books disappoint - his Daily Dozen is not inclusive of a 130kg diesel mechanic working out back of Bourke.
The Dozen has about 1200 Calories with the serves recommended.
If I was going to elevate myself to a WFPB authority, I wouldn't be excluding manual worker males.

My understanding is that the daily dozen are just items to include in your diet. It doesn't spell it out (which is maybe where it falls down) but assumes you just fill it in with whatever whole food calories you need/want. Where it also might fail for the Burke mechanic is presenting optimal foods (with few alternatives) that might not be available in remote towns. One reason why I would try to avoid living in such places. It's also likely a factor in the obesity rates in those towns. I lived in Ceduna, SA about 24 years ago, for some months. At the time it had 3 places that sold fresh food. The selection wasn't vast, or particularly cheap IIRC. Most likely because it had to be transported about 800 km by road.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:13 pm

Nobody wrote:My understanding is that the daily dozen are just items to include in your diet. It doesn't spell it out (which is maybe where it falls down) but assumes you just fill it in with whatever whole food calories you need/want. Where it also might fail for the Burke mechanic is presenting optimal foods (with few alternatives) that might not be available in remote towns. One reason why I would try to avoid living in such places. It's also likely a factor in the obesity rates in those towns. I lived in Ceduna, SA about 24 years ago, for some months. At the time it had 3 places that sold fresh food. The selection wasn't vast, or particularly cheap IIRC. Most likely because it had to be transported about 800 km by road.


hmmmm, yes I think making a list of serves such as the Daily Dozen as stuff to 'include' in your daily diet, probably looked good on paper, but it confuses.

Most people attempting a new diet are trying to lose weight, and cannot use this as a portion guide.

Further, the bigger and more active you are, these serves represent less and less of your total Calorie intake.
i.e.
1200 Calories is a typical energy expenditure for many women, so these serving inclusions are going to leave little room for discretionary Calories for most women

OTOH, these serves could represent less than 50% of a manual worker's total intake.
So the health supporting effect theoretically will not be equal for men and women!

It would be no trouble for Greger to include on the website/app a vital stats and physical activity input page that spits out no. of serves required for wt loss, maintenance, and even wt gain. It honestly isn't that hard.
And something like that would have been a good foundation for doctors all over the world to refer patients to for portion guidance for weight mgt.

Anyway, he's no doubt doing more good than harm!

Re healthy food in the bush, things might have changed since then Nobody.
When in Mildura, Bendigo, West Wyalong, Narrabri, and Moree, the grocery stores had very good fresh fruit and vege.
In Mildura, I got regular fresh picked permaculture vege from a lady who set up a stall in the local mall every Sunday morn. She told me how a low carb diet had helped her lose 35kg and keep it off!
Last edited by CKinnard on Tue Oct 02, 2018 9:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:29 pm

CKinnard wrote:
Nobody wrote:My understanding is that the daily dozen are just items to include in your diet. It doesn't spell it out (which is maybe where it falls down) but assumes you just fill it in with whatever whole food calories you need/want. Where it also might fail for the Burke mechanic is presenting optimal foods (with few alternatives) that might not be available in remote towns. One reason why I would try to avoid living in such places. It's also likely a factor in the obesity rates in those towns. I lived in Ceduna, SA about 24 years ago, for some months. At the time it had 3 places that sold fresh food. The selection wasn't vast, or particularly cheap IIRC. Most likely because it had to be transported about 800 km by road.


hmmmm, yes I think making a list of serves such as the Daily Dozen as stuff to 'include' in your daily diet, probably looked good on paper, but it confuses.

Most people attempting a new diet are trying to lose weight, and cannot use this as a portion guide.

Further, the bigger and more active you are, these serves represent less and less of your total Calorie intake.
i.e.
1200 Calories is a typical energy expenditure for many women, so these serving inclusions are going to leave little room for discretionary Calories for most women

OTOH, these serves could represent less than 50% of a manual worker's total intake.
So the health supporting effect theoretically will not be equal for men and women!

It would be no trouble for Greger to include on the website/app a vital stats and physical activity input page that spits out no. of serves required for wt loss, maintenance, and even wt gain. It honestly isn't that hard.
And something like that would have been a good foundation for doctors all over the world to refer patients to for portion guidance for weight mgt.

Anyway, he's no doubt doing more good than harm!
Is it a case that he is trying to keep it simple but has got to too simple, so leaving too much margin for [uneducated] error?
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Tue Oct 02, 2018 9:34 pm

mikesbytes wrote:Is it a case that he is trying to keep it simple but has got to too simple, so leaving too much margin for [uneducated] error?


yeah that's the case.
The issue is in my view that doctors and scientists are not necessarily highly experienced or equipped to understand the minds of people who need dietary clarification most, nor do they know how to 'communicate' simply, clearly, effectively.

Coming from advertising, and having lived across all demographic groups, I am acutely aware of poor comprehension and communication between the professional classes and others.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:22 pm

CKinnard wrote:She told me how a low carb diet had helped her lose 35kg and keep it off!

Yeah, but for how long? I'd say by the time she gets to 5+ years she'll be having trouble keeping it off. The body adapts for whatever reason. It appears to be the typical low-carb way. Speaking of low-carb, the latest "Hugh's Fat Fight" has a low-carb feel to it. They're still concentrating on reducing sugar, while overlooking the fat intake problem. Both the show and the UK government. Apparently the answer to obesity is mainly sugar reduction and exercise.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:15 am

Nobody wrote:
CKinnard wrote:She told me how a low carb diet had helped her lose 35kg and keep it off!

Yeah, but for how long? I'd say by the time she gets to 5+ years she'll be having trouble keeping it off. The body adapts for whatever reason. It appears to be the typical low-carb way. Speaking of low-carb, the latest "Hugh's Fat Fight" has a low-carb feel to it. They're still concentrating on reducing sugar, while overlooking the fat intake problem. Both the show and the UK government. Apparently the answer to obesity is mainly sugar reduction and exercise.


Yes I was going to attempt to explain that her energy expenditure is so low that even if she was on a WFPB high carb low fat diet, her carb intake would still be low.....but I sensed she was too emotionally invested and dependent on her misconceptions.

Incidentally, by any standards she was still obese....what stuns me about rural areas is the pervasive delusion about health and bodyweight.

Nevertheless, she has at least made the move towards eating more fresh produce, and I was grateful for the quality of the stuff they provided. Best beetroot I've ever seen, tastiest broccolini and snow peas, cucumbers with a rich taste similar to what I grew when younger.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Wed Oct 03, 2018 11:31 am

CKinnard wrote:...but I sensed she was too emotionally invested and dependent on her misconceptions.

So the cognitive dissonance caused by a challenge to her illusion of knowledge which is currently guiding her way of life. Probably the one of the biggest barriers to knowledge in diet for most. That and the pull of the addiction to their current foods. It has taken decades, but the various food industries have done a great job of marketing their products by methods of deception. Thereby creating this illusion.

CKinnard wrote:Incidentally, by any standards she was still obese....

If she was average height and only BMI 30, then she would have been 116 kg with the added 35 kg. Or a morbidly obese BMI of 43. So still being obese after losing more than half a (female) person. People claim and usually get some notoriety by telling people how much weight they have lost. But I wonder if they reflect on how that might be seen by others as a lack of self control to get that big in the first place. If I was once morbidly obese, I don't know if that would be information I'd want to advertise.

CKinnard wrote:...what stuns me about rural areas is the pervasive delusion about health and bodyweight.

I used to live on a farm for about 3.5 years in my teenage years, back in the early '80s. Our neighbour died of a heart attack I'd guess in his 60s. He was borderline obese when I knew him. He and my father were both lamb producers. So obviously big believers in animal products. I believe my father for the most part still is. Although having a son, a son-in-law (yes, my brother-in-law is recently back on the wagon) and now a grand daughter as vegans should be having some influence.
In general, against trying to make a living in a harsh environment. Health doesn't really rate. Which is evident by the obesity stats. They also appeared to be more community focused and less competitive. Which should be a good thing, but obviously isn't when it comes to obesity. Modern farm machinery has also made the job far less physical that it used to be.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby RhapsodyX » Wed Oct 03, 2018 12:12 pm

Nobody wrote:
CKinnard wrote:She told me how a low carb diet had helped her lose 35kg and keep it off!

Yeah, but for how long? I'd say by the time she gets to 5+ years she'll be having trouble keeping it off. The body adapts for whatever reason. It appears to be the typical low-carb way. Speaking of low-carb, the latest "Hugh's Fat Fight" has a low-carb feel to it. They're still concentrating on reducing sugar, while overlooking the fat intake problem. Both the show and the UK government. Apparently the answer to obesity is mainly sugar reduction and exercise.


Fat intake problem? Nothing's that simple.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Wed Oct 03, 2018 12:29 pm

Perception is often based on what's around you.
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby RhapsodyX » Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:09 pm

mikesbytes wrote:Perception is often based on what's around you.

... which is why it's important to keep an open mind. For example, buried in the discussion of the Guthrie sacking was :
Ms Guthrie claimed the issues had been discussed “extensively” at board meetings and the “real issue” was that Mr Milne could not be convinced a reasonable person didn’t mean “everyone he knows”

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Wed Oct 03, 2018 3:37 pm

Low carbohydrate diets are unsafe and should be avoided - European Society of Cardiology

Compared to participants with the highest carbohydrate consumption, those with the lowest intake had a 32% higher risk of all-cause death over an average 6.4-year follow-up. In addition, risks of death from coronary heart disease, cerebrovascular disease, and cancer were increased by 51%, 50%, and 35%, respectively.

The results were confirmed in a meta-analysis of seven prospective cohort studies with 447,506 participants and an average follow-up 15.6 years, which found 15%, 13%, and 8% increased risks in total, cardiovascular, and cancer mortality with low (compared to high) carbohydrate diets (see figure for total mortality).

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby RhapsodyX » Wed Oct 03, 2018 3:44 pm

Nobody wrote:Low carbohydrate diets are unsafe and should be avoided - European Society of Cardiology

Compared to participants with the highest carbohydrate consumption, those with the lowest intake had a 32% higher risk of all-cause death over an average 6.4-year follow-up. In addition, risks of death from coronary heart disease, cerebrovascular disease, and cancer were increased by 51%, 50%, and 35%, respectively.

The results were confirmed in a meta-analysis of seven prospective cohort studies with 447,506 participants and an average follow-up 15.6 years, which found 15%, 13%, and 8% increased risks in total, cardiovascular, and cancer mortality with low (compared to high) carbohydrate diets (see figure for total mortality).


... for which the lowest quintile intake was around 40+% of energy from carbohydrate, and the studies were mainly lowER-carb-high-protein. Certainly not anywhere near ketogenic levels of carbohydrate intake as inaccurately reported by many of the "tabloid quality" reports.

Edit: Not trying to be an arse, but the use of the term "low carb" is often misused and the "fat is always bad" position is not backed by research. Diet quality is far more important than food macros, IMHO.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Wed Oct 03, 2018 7:34 pm

The ESC published results are relevant to my comment, as my comment was in reference to the video I posted. Maybe watch it (if you haven't already) to see what I'm commenting about. Those people are often eating the worst kinds of fat and some were also reducing their carb intake an unspecified amount, which tends toward low-carb. This appears to be the intuitive action to take these days if one wants to lose weight. Regardless of one's medical conditions/history. A big change from the '80s. But there is no mention of fat being a problem in any of Hugh's three videos so far IIRC. Probably unintentional, but IMO the third video ends up appearing like a bit of a subtle ad for the weight loss benefits of low-carb eating. At least the second video had a comedian showing the benefits of eating veg.

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