Diet Thread

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CKinnard
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:45 pm

Patt0 wrote:I have stumbled upon another super food in disguise.

Gummy lollies. High in gelatine and glucose. Fuel and joint and bone support in a tasty little treat.



yes well, articles that say gelatin is a health food are like articles that say balding man should eat hair.

Patt0
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Patt0 » Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:33 pm

CKinnard wrote:
Patt0 wrote:I have stumbled upon another super food in disguise.

Gummy lollies. High in gelatine and glucose. Fuel and joint and bone support in a tasty little treat.



yes well, articles that say gelatin is a health food are like articles that say balding man should eat hair.


I don’t see your point.

Hair or keratin is not digested by humans. Whereas collagen...has a long history of bone and joint support in the form of bone broths.
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Baalzamon » Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:01 pm

You do realise you can make your own gummy bears just using gelatin & water with a non sugar sweetener... ie stevia, xylitol etc
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CKinnard
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sun Nov 11, 2018 7:41 am

Patt0 wrote:
CKinnard wrote:
Patt0 wrote:I have stumbled upon another super food in disguise.

Gummy lollies. High in gelatine and glucose. Fuel and joint and bone support in a tasty little treat.



yes well, articles that say gelatin is a health food are like articles that say balding man should eat hair.


I don’t see your point.

Hair or keratin is not digested by humans. Whereas collagen...has a long history of bone and joint support in the form of bone broths.


I'd love to see scientific studies of the benefits of gelatin. The only ones I've seen mention reduced osteoarthritis pain, but they don't say whether total Calorie intake remained constant when on broth or gelatin, an important point because OA and inflammatory pain reduces significantly on a Calorie deficit or fast.

Further, gelatin is broken down in the stomach and small intestine, and absorbed as amino acids. It's essentially 100% amino acids.
There's a cap on the rate that amino acids can be utilized or stored, which once exceeded, excess aa's are deaminated into very toxic ammonia. A significant stress is put on the liver to convert this to less toxic urea. Urea then puts a high stress load on the kidneys to be urinated out.

Chronic excess protein intake does degenerate renal function quicker, in those with renal insufficiency, and in normals. Some studies say people with normal renal function are not adversely effected by excess protein intake, but these fail to understand what renal function studies measure, and how the kidneys' reserve capacity masks damage, until reserve capacity is substantially reduced. BTW, renal reserve capacity is what determines someone's ability to do high intensity cardio exercise, along with the heart's reserve capacity for higher cardiac output. Renal function blood tests don't test reserve capacity, which makes as much as sense as testing an athlete's cardiac output at rest only.

There's a lot of non-science written about protein. I've never read a health, fitness, strength industry article that demonstrates an understanding of the highest source of protein for the body, >60% being recycled amino acids.

Some say excess amino acids are simply used as an energy source. An unqualified statement like this is bro-science, which is ignorant of how protein sparing works, and urea excretion rates on various macro ratios. The only time amino acids will be used as a significant energy source is after 2 days into a complete fast, or many days into a very low Calorie diet.

Further, circulating amino acids are ACIDS, and need to be buffered to maintain normal plasma pH. This puts a load on calcium, phosphorous, and potassium stores, which are also excreted in higher quantities via the kidneys.

Apart from that, the putative benefits of eating animals 'top to tail' is in great part due to eating less animal skeletal muscle and milk products.
One could get similar if not superior putative health benefits from just reducing the amount of animal produce eaten in a week. This is what the world's longest lived communities do. i.e. they all have much less animal produce than those on a standard western diet.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Patt0 » Sun Nov 11, 2018 10:38 pm

Coles snakes have More flour in them than Allen’s apparently. Might attempt to make my own.

Baalzamon wrote:You do realise you can make your own gummy bears just using gelatin & water with a non sugar sweetener... ie stevia, xylitol etc


I have no problem with sugar. Actually the only supplement I take these days is glucose.a bit worried about those sugar alcohols though. My understanding is they are not assimilated. That would mean they are passed to the bugs in the colon. I don’t feed freeloaders and I don’t want them playing with my brain chemistry.
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Patt0 » Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:37 pm

CKinnard wrote:.

Chronic excess protein intake does degenerate renal function quicker, in those with renal insufficiency, and in normals. Some studies say people with normal renal function are not adversely effected by excess protein intake, but these fail to understand what renal function studies measure, and how the kidneys' reserve capacity masks damage, until reserve capacity is substantially reduced. BTW, renal reserve capacity is what determines someone's ability to do high intensity cardio exercise, along with the heart's reserve capacity for higher cardiac output. Renal function blood tests don't test reserve capacity, which makes as much as sense as testing an athlete's cardiac output at rest only.
.


Thanks for your insight. You should be educating these folk.

https://academic.oup.com/jn/article-abs ... m=fulltext
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CKinnard
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Tue Nov 13, 2018 6:38 pm

Patt0 wrote:Thanks for your insight. You should be educating these folk.

https://academic.oup.com/jn/article-abs ... m=fulltext


Yes I should considering
- their selection criteria below, which should be resolutely pilloried for the statistical errors it opens itself to.
"We conducted a systematic review and meta-analysis of trials comparing HP (≥1.5 g/kg body weight or ≥20% energy intake or ≥100 g protein/d) with normal- or lower-protein (NLP; ≥5% less energy intake from protein/d compared with HP group) intakes on kidney function."

- that 4 of 6 of the authors are in the "kinesiology" department of McMaster University,
- and this university being a major proponent of higher dietary fat:lower carbohydrate diets.
- this review fails to discriminate between standard renal tests with poor sensitivity (eGFR, Creatinine Clearance), and newer 'renal stress testing', which is more sensitive for early stage renal function loss (furosemide stress test, renal functional reserve).

Some other considerations
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30064987
https://www.cell.com/cell-metabolism/fu ... %2900062-X

Like I said initially,
- eating gelatin will probably effect your health positively, IF you use it as a partial substitute for skeletal muscle consumption.
- typical renal function blood tests are not sensitive to loss of reserve capacity.
- How do you think a person can donate a kidney and still lead a reasonably normal life?
Last edited by CKinnard on Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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mikesbytes
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:31 pm

Visited a friend who over the last whatever had been making slow but steady weight loss. This time she had made a much bigger improvement ie the weight loss has become faster. Chatting to her, she sighted that she was now food logging, which is a great way to better understand your eating habits. Now what was interesting that she is logging the food on her fitbit. I didn't even know that it did that and I have no idea how it does it and what it provides, however having the ability to log on your wrist is super convenient
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:10 pm

mikesbytes wrote:Visited a friend who over the last whatever had been making slow but steady weight loss. This time she had made a much bigger improvement ie the weight loss has become faster. Chatting to her, she sighted that she was now food logging, which is a great way to better understand your eating habits. Now what was interesting that she is logging the food on her fitbit. I didn't even know that it did that and I have no idea how it does it and what it provides, however having the ability to log on your wrist is super convenient


I am not up with the latest on tech gadgets in this respect.
Regarding food logging, the research definitely shows an advantage in dieters doing it. Why? because it is way too easy to conveniently underestimate or forget what we've eaten.
I prefer a Calorie specific diet plan though, that one rigidly sticks to. This means one doesn't have futz with logging everything eaten, week after week.
But the jewel in the crown is to overcome cravings when on a Calorie deficit, and that's another story.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:37 pm

CKinnard wrote:But the jewel in the crown is to overcome cravings when on a Calorie deficit, and that's another story.

Absolutely. If this was an easy one to crack, you would be out of a job. This is pretty close to my main interest in dieting.

The solutions are only a search away but having the solution doesn't mean you are going to resolve the problem

https://video.search.yahoo.com/search/video;?p=how%20to%20break%20food%20cravings
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby RhapsodyX » Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:32 am


RhapsodyX
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby RhapsodyX » Wed Nov 21, 2018 10:37 am

Low-carb diets cause people to burn more calories. Don't blame me - it's actual science.

And... very pleased to discover that for trackies, the recommended diet these days is LCHF with 2g/kg of protein. One of my 13-yr-old identical twins has been talent-scouted as a future track sprinter... and it's the one who has trouble controlling his weight when he eats junk food. As opposed to his twin, who has food texture sensitivities and is now 7cm shorter. :|

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Patt0 » Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:52 am

CKinnard wrote:- that 4 of 6 of the authors are in the "kinesiology" department of McMaster University,
- and this university being a major proponent of higher dietary fat:lower carbohydrate diets.


If you have an axe to grind, confirmation bias is the stone to use.



Epidemiology is not the way I science.

CKinnard wrote:Like I said initially,
- eating gelatin will probably effect your health positively, IF you use it as a partial substitute for skeletal muscle consumption.
- typical renal function blood tests are not sensitive to loss of reserve capacity.
- How do you think a person can donate a kidney and still lead a reasonably normal life?


Thanks again for your insight. If I get kidney pain, I will know to cut back on the gummy lollies.
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Wed Nov 21, 2018 3:36 pm


Video on their site with associated links here.

I've read a comment in this thread in the past that dairy fat is protective. According to the video above, that is only true in comparison to "Other animal fat". Another successful marketing ploy by the dairy industry. See this image from this study.

While dairy fat being relatively unhealthy for humans was no surprise. What I found interesting was how beneficial n-6 PUFA (mainly found in nuts & grains) was for arterial protection by comparison, for most people. Yes it's typically reductionist, like most science. But even reductionism can at times help paint a picture if you're willing to gather the pieces together.

Earlier related video here.

CKinnard
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Wed Nov 21, 2018 6:18 pm

Patt0 wrote:
CKinnard wrote:- that 4 of 6 of the authors are in the "kinesiology" department of McMaster University,
- and this university being a major proponent of higher dietary fat:lower carbohydrate diets.


If you have an axe to grind, confirmation bias is the stone to use.



Epidemiology is not the way I science.

CKinnard wrote:Like I said initially,
- eating gelatin will probably effect your health positively, IF you use it as a partial substitute for skeletal muscle consumption.
- typical renal function blood tests are not sensitive to loss of reserve capacity.
- How do you think a person can donate a kidney and still lead a reasonably normal life?


Thanks again for your insight. If I get kidney pain, I will know to cut back on the gummy lollies.



Confirmation bias is less likely the more familiar one is with all of the literature, over decades. The low carb movement is a new thing, most popular with those least practiced in nutrition...and epidemiology, the value of which you'd realize if you appreciated nutrition research complexities.

By the time you get kidney pain, the damage is extensive and irreversible.
Happy trails after 60!

CKinnard
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Thu Nov 22, 2018 7:44 am

Patt0 wrote:Epidemiology is not the way I science.


Doing science this way more appealing to you?


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Re: Diet Thread

Postby warthog1 » Thu Nov 22, 2018 10:36 am

CKinnard wrote:



:lol: Love it :mrgreen:
He is great the way he points out the BS.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Patt0 » Thu Nov 22, 2018 1:04 pm

CKinnard wrote:
Patt0 wrote:Epidemiology is not the way I science.


Doing science this way more appealing to you?



industry funded scientific studies, subliminal and biological marketing, cash for comment, active measures etc. Does that really stuff really exist?

CKinnard wrote:
nutrition research complexities.


Yea its a tough nut. My current view on nutrition is to leave science, religion, politics and economics out of it. Results is where i am at. Which actually goes back to the application of core scientific principles, rigorous experiments, observe, record and retest.

I actually am well read on popular, alternative and holistic nutrition and previously applied all the natural wholefood principles in my meals. 18 months ago, 80% of my diet and increasing, was whole fresh fruit and veg. Mostly home grown without pesticides and petroleum fertilizers. The ailments that were increasing in severity, I assumed, were a result of my debauches prior life, my increasing age and the two hrs of riding I was doing for my commutes.

I decreased all the bad things and increased all the good things, but to no avail. I was at the point I couldnt look at another salad. Looking for answers, I saw somewhere that the keto diet gave relief to the joint inflammation I was experiencing. Bought some different oils, nuts, seeds and a fillet of rib eye and gave it a go. I did have some reservations, as I had been through the nut and seed thing in an attempt at vegan many years ago. And steak was never my thing and I never had any growing up. So that lasted all of a week. Stomach upsets were just too big a red flag for my small mind and will. I languished in despair for a couple of weeks, not eating much and not knowing where to turn.

I resigned to the fact I would have to give up all meat and dairy and cut back on the riding. I took out of the fridge, the fillet of rib eye. I was going to throw it out as it had been then there for a few weeks. Instinctively I took a sniff. What I experienced was profound. I felt like I had to eat it. I was like a zombie waking from the dead. My whole body was electrified. It was definitely not spoiled. So I cut a steak and cooked it in the pan and sat down to eat it. From the very first bite, it was pure ecstasy, my taste buds danced and my mind was intoxicated. I couldnt believe what I was experiencing.

That day I googled euphoria, tingling from eating beef, rare beef etc etc. Stumbled upon carnivore diet and thought these people are out of their mind. How could dead flesh, the very source of that is bad, acid forming, toxin laden,constipating, heart attack inducing and cancer causing etc have this positive effect on me? Beginning oct '17 I took the plunge and cut out everything except beef and dairy. Joint pain and chronic crohns disappeared in days. The only downside was recovery from intense efforts. Added in ice cream and that issue went too. Body re composition has been positive. 14 months later and still pain free. Nothing really else to say in regards to observations. My blood work results probably wont make the girls blush when I show them, but I will make an appointment now and get them done anyway. So that is how I science.

I admit I am not very smart and have done many things back to front. Like taking retirement from 15-30yrs, starting career and family at 36(yea I got some spare kidneys). I live in the now. ya no, recoil from pain, move towards reward. Failed at many things, some multiple times, including veganism. One day I might work it all out. :)
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CKinnard
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Thu Nov 22, 2018 2:04 pm

Patt0 wrote:The ailments that were increasing in severity, I assumed, were a result of my debauches prior life, my increasing age and the two hrs of riding I was doing for my commutes.

I decreased all the bad things and increased all the good things, but to no avail. I was at the point I couldnt look at another salad. Looking for answers, I saw somewhere that the keto diet gave relief to the joint inflammation I was experiencing.


The first thing to sort out for joint pain is get your hydration and vege up, weight down, review your sleep quality - I have no idea what your BMI or waist/height ratio is. That pain reduces on ANY calorie deficit, low carb or WFPB.

If it persists, then it's a good idea to get investigations for inflammatory arthritises and gut diseases including gluten sensitivity.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Thu Nov 22, 2018 4:37 pm

CKinnard wrote:If it persists, then it's a good idea to get investigations for inflammatory arthritises and gut diseases including gluten sensitivity.


When it comes to gut diseases/health, GojiMan has a number of videos on what tests to get and how one can correct the problem(s). Since he has gone through the process himself and corrected his problems.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Thu Nov 22, 2018 5:40 pm

Nobody wrote:
CKinnard wrote:If it persists, then it's a good idea to get investigations for inflammatory arthritises and gut diseases including gluten sensitivity.


When it comes to gut diseases/health, GojiMan has a number of videos on what tests to get and how one can correct the problem(s). Since he has gone through the process himself and corrected his problems.


and how could I have forgotten iron overload as a cause of general joint pain!? :)

autoimmune diseases can also cause general joint pain. .. though the more common ones are categorized under inflammatory arthritis and gut disorders.

and I left out viral arthritis though these don't tend to persist severely for years. i.e. ross river virus, and barmah forest virus.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby RhapsodyX » Fri Nov 23, 2018 9:31 am

warthog1 wrote:
CKinnard wrote: :lol: Love it :mrgreen:
He is great the way he points out the BS.


Watched the vid, tracked down the research... once again (not really surprised), it's spin. When the research is making points about effects on LDL-C and HDL-C and Greger claims "Cholesterol went down" then shows LDL-C data... that's deliberate, and there's no peer review to keep Greger honest.

Anyway - for all of those studies the aim & conclusions do not match what Greger claimed. Useful science? Yes and no - it provides data for question the general public has no need to know. But just because the money for research is provided by food industry players didn't mean they were involved in the research... although in one of the studies (USA, no suprise) I would call it at least a perceived conflict of interest despite it being declared.

Try reading this instead : Essays on health: how food companies can sneak bias into scientific research. (And the paper is Association of Industry Sponsorship With Outcomes of Nutrition Studies). Sorry - there's no video version to dumb it down.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Patt0 » Fri Nov 23, 2018 9:59 am

CKinnard wrote:
Patt0 wrote:The ailments that were increasing in severity, I assumed, were a result of my debauches prior life, my increasing age and the two hrs of riding I was doing for my commutes.

I decreased all the bad things and increased all the good things, but to no avail. I was at the point I couldnt look at another salad. Looking for answers, I saw somewhere that the keto diet gave relief to the joint inflammation I was experiencing.


The first thing to sort out for joint pain is get your hydration and vege up, weight down, review your sleep quality - I have no idea what your BMI or waist/height ratio is. That pain reduces on ANY calorie deficit, low carb or WFPB.

If it persists, then it's a good idea to get investigations for inflammatory arthritises and gut diseases including gluten sensitivity.


BMI is 25.1, waist/height is 82/183cm.

I suspect that I do have a gluten sensitivity. It was something that I minimised long ago. Not only that, I appear to be sensitive to fruit and veg too. I guess I am just a snow flake.
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CKinnard
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Fri Nov 23, 2018 10:33 am

Patt0 wrote:BMI is 25.1, waist/height is 82/183cm.

I suspect that I do have a gluten sensitivity. It was something that I minimised long ago. Not only that, I appear to be sensitive to fruit and veg too. I guess I am just a snow flake.


I sense you are a man of superfluent exuberance, in which case I might suggest you just focus on striking a calm nutritional middle ground, and mind:
- weekly, a maximum 600g animal bits, 3-4 cups of legumes (chickpeas, soy products, lentils, 3 bean mixes, etc)
- at least 6 cups of salad or vege daily
- 1-2 fruit daily
-starches : as required for isocaloric intake - sweet potato and gluten free (rice, buckwheat, corn) whole grains (reduce products made from flour)
- really cut back on health destroying gastronomic and appetite stimulation - salt, sugar, oils/fats
- give yourself a break from alcohol, dairy, and junk for at least 30 days.....then review how you feel...

your weight and waist circumference are not too bad, but I note you are trying to get to 75kg, which I don't think is an unreasonable goal.
And if one has health issues, it's always worth aiming for the narrowest waist, with reasonable muscle mass.
Being lighter reduces the work of all vital systems - kidney, heart, lungs, lymphatics, immune system - and therefore makes a significant contribution to longevity.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Fri Nov 23, 2018 10:56 am

Patt0 wrote:Not only that, I appear to be sensitive to fruit and veg too.

Probably good idea to check your serum vit-D level then. I get sensitive to certain veg as my vit-D drops over winter, if I'm not supplementing. If you decide to supplement, it may take a month or so to improve your sensitivity situation. It also could take a higher dose than you thought necessary. But be careful, as you can overdose with toxic consequences.

CKinnard wrote:and how could I have forgotten iron overload as a cause of general joint pain!? :)

Yeah. It looks like I may not escape the particular arthritis caused by haemo. Of the four joints of the two primary fingers on each hand - which are specific to haemo and the specialist tests for - one joint has been giving intermittent trouble on my left hand. But not recently, so it could have been low vit-D related. Anyway we'll see what happens over the next 10 years. I'm due for another bleed in less than 2 weeks.

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