Diet Thread

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Nobody
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Fri Apr 10, 2015 9:56 pm

warthog1 wrote:Crikey Nobody that there is reason enough to go on your diet.
:lol: I meant break it up in the toilet. But thanks for the laugh. :lol:

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby warthog1 » Fri Apr 10, 2015 11:14 pm

Thanks for clarifying that too
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piledhigher
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby piledhigher » Fri Apr 10, 2015 11:19 pm

casual_cyclist wrote:
CXCommuter wrote:
casual_cyclist wrote:Hmm. It looks like zinc supplementation needs to be carefully considered: "Zinc supplements must be used with caution in view of the dangers of zinc excess and zinc toxicity". Interesting reading: http://www.patient.co.uk/doctor/zinc-de ... ementation

Just drink water off an old iron roof will sort out zinc issues

:mrgreen:

It turns out not to be as complicated as I thought. For me, RDI is 11 mg and upper limit is 40 mg. My supplement is 25 mg. So if I take that 3 times a week, that will cover me without putting me into excess.


You also need to look at one of the key causes of zinc loss, my super quick google foo suggests up to 15mg at a time.

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casual_cyclist
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby casual_cyclist » Sat Apr 11, 2015 12:36 am

piledhigher wrote:You also need to look at one of the key causes of zinc loss, my super quick google foo suggests up to 15mg at a time.

Probably more like 3-5mg :wink:

But in my case it is that my dietary intake is inadequate. I could eat more legumes, nuts, seeds, and oatmeal. But another problem with eating mostly plant is this:

Phytates, which are commonly found in plant foods, can reduce zinc absorption, and some researchers have suggested that this increases the zinc needs of vegetarians by up to 50%

http://www.veganhealth.org/articles/zinc

Sigh. So I think it is necessary for me to supplement. I can live with that.
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Mon Apr 13, 2015 2:57 pm

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Above is the latest. I've fixed some things, simplified others and added fibre, which I'm getting enough of. :D

Still sweating how much seeds and nuts I should be eating. PCRM has a recommendation for ALA/omega-3 but none for LA/omega-6. The reasoning for the NRV LA values don't appear convincing to me at this stage. For both linseed (flax seed) and walnuts there are arguments for and against by credible reasoning and studies as to why I should take or limit both. Linseed has potential toxins in larger amounts and lignans which can act similar to female hormones in the body. While walnuts are relatively high in saturated fat. On the other hand there are various studies to show that they can both lower blood pressure and help you live longer and healthier. :?

At this stage I think I'll keep the linseed level where it is and may reduce the walnuts. That way my 6 to 3 ratio will drop further.

I've already lowered my chickpea intake slightly and may lower it more. I'm aware that others have had success with higher protein, lower carb, plant based diets with weight loss. But I've found reducing my beans in the past to work for me with weight loss, so I'm trying it again. No harm in trying. Reducing beans is not just lowering protein, but also lowering fat.

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singlespeedscott
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby singlespeedscott » Mon Apr 13, 2015 3:44 pm

Nice spread sheet but it just sounds all to hard for the average shmuck. It's definitely something that only a professional athlete or someone who is a bit OCD could do in the long term.
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby casual_cyclist » Mon Apr 13, 2015 4:44 pm

Nobody wrote:Above is the latest. I've fixed some things, simplified others and added fibre, which I'm getting enough of. :D

Oh yeah, smashing the fibre! :D

Still, you are saving money because you don't have to buy expensive fibre supplements. Have you seen how much those things cost? At a major super, Metamucil Smooth Orange is $20.79 425g!!! :shock:

Can you imagine how much real food you could buy for $20? I could buy 3 week of fruit for that much, and it would probably have more fibre too.
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby warthog1 » Mon Apr 13, 2015 5:22 pm

singlespeedscott wrote:Nice spread sheet but it just sounds all to hard for the average shmuck. It's definitely something that only a professional athlete or someone who is a bit OCD could do in the long term.



What are you saying? :lol:
It's too tough for me, but if I had a decent health scare I could see myself giving it a crack.
Still, I enjoy reading Nobody's exploits as it is encouraging me to make healthier choices through improved understanding and hopefully that will help me avoid the big health scare. :)

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Mon Apr 13, 2015 6:30 pm

i can understand Nobody's spreadsheet schtick. Been through it myself, and it was a powerful learning process in understanding the energy content of food.

Most struggle with their bodyweight their whole lives, and will spend thousands on quick weight loss fixes, and tens of thousands on the consequences of not managing their bodyweight better.

There are few things more important to get clear in your head than how much energy (and nutrient) is in various foods.

What I am surprised at is that Nobody can eat exactly that same menu, day after day, week after week.

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singlespeedscott
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby singlespeedscott » Mon Apr 13, 2015 6:57 pm

CKinnard wrote:What I am surprised at is that Nobody can eat exactly that same menu, day after day, week after week.

+1

Don't get me wrong I admire the efforts he's taking I just cant see me or the average punter taking steps like that.
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Tue Apr 14, 2015 9:53 am

CKinnard wrote:What I am surprised at is that Nobody can eat exactly that same menu, day after day, week after week.
It's a sample diet. It's certainly typical of what I eat in a day. The only changes are usually lunch, which the minority of times will be sweet potato or potato with a table spoon of soy sauce used as a dipping sauce. Energy content of that lunch is about the same. Fruit can vary a bit too.

singlespeedscott wrote:I just can't see me or the average punter taking steps like that.
Agree. You usually can't be passionate about food and also win the waist battle over the long term. I have the advantage of not being passionate about food. I like it, but it doesn't rule my life.

I have a colleague at work who did the CHIP program last year and his diet was plant based, but is now eating a bit of meat again to fit in with the family. He has learned lots of ways to prepare plant based food so it tastes good. He has lost weight but can't lose the last 5Kg he wanted to lose. He is currently 10Kg heavy than me but shorter. I can only put it down to too much animal product and/or too much of a love for good tasting food. Both reasons are related anyway.

For those interested in maximum weight loss, the video below might help. It has a page displayed from the book The Starch Solution about it. I could probably lose more weight if I followed it all, so my diet isn't that extreme.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OkMiK2lxBY

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Tue Apr 14, 2015 10:13 am

Nobody wrote:I have a colleague at work who did the CHIP program last year and his diet was plant based, but is now eating a bit of meat again to fit in with the family. He has learned lots of ways to prepare plant based food so it tastes good. He has lost weight but can't lose the last 5Kg he wanted to lose. He is currently 10Kg heavy than me but shorter. I can only put it down to too much animal product and/or too much of a love for good tasting food. Both reasons are related anyway.


Nobody, as you know the CHIP program is what I am involved with. One of the areas I think they could do better is in portion control. Their attitude is that if people just eat whole foods plant based, the weight automatically comes off. This is wrong for a large portion of attendees, well over 50%, ime. People who have been chronically overweight, with multiple morbidities, usually get that way due to eating to quell psychoemotional stress. So they need guidance on energy in/out, and how to create a deficit. If you asked your mate at work who did the course roughly how much energy he burned in a day, and how much he was eating, my guess is he wouldn't have a clue about either. Incidentally, the other area they could do better in is not recommending everyone try to walk 10,000 steps every day. The chronically morbid invariably break down (knees, hips, back) doing so.

Re your diet, I am relieved to hear the spready is a sample...and as we've discussed before, that's why I use averaged data for food sub groups. Over the course of a week or month, it evens out very very reliably, even more so when making healthy food choices regularly. That way I don't have to enter how much cucumber, radish, spinach, etc I eat every day. :) Nevertheless, I appreciate you are trying to keep a closer eye on various micronutrients at the moment.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Tue Apr 14, 2015 12:31 pm

CKinnard wrote:Nobody, as you know the CHIP program is what I am involved with. One of the areas I think they could do better is in portion control. Their attitude is that if people just eat whole foods plant based, the weight automatically comes off. This is wrong for a large portion of attendees, well over 50%, ime. People who have been chronically overweight, with multiple morbidities, usually get that way due to eating to quell psychoemotional stress. So they need guidance on energy in/out, and how to create a deficit. If you asked your mate at work who did the course roughly how much energy he burned in a day, and how much he was eating, my guess is he wouldn't have a clue about either.
I think you're right about lack of energy monitoring, because I don't remember him mentioning it once. Also from what I've observed, he seemed to consume a lot of cooked food. From what I've heard, eating more of a raw food diet would lose weight quicker (if that's the goal) like you are. Mine is a approx 50:50 raw/starches by energy where the standard McDougall diet is 70 to 90% starches. So what warthog1 says is true, mine is more of a weight loss diet.

I pulled about 100 Cals out of breakfast and lunch, mainly from fat and protein. I then compared 84% of my intake (16% of energy used for digestion of plant food) to an energy calculator on Calculator.net to find they almost match. So I learned if you pull the fibre out and the 16% for digestion out of the intake assessment, a plant based intake does actually match the average energy consumption.

CKinnard wrote:Incidentally, the other area they could do better in is not recommending everyone try to walk 10,000 steps every day. The chronically morbid invariably break down (knees, hips, back) doing so.
I also noticed my colleague wearing a pedometer and discussing with someone else about how many steps per day they were doing. They will probably get a weight loss bounce out of it. Some may keep it off, but exercise didn't do a lot for me in regard to long-term weight loss. I agree that many are probably better off losing much of the weight and inflammation (often caused by animal products) before getting into larger volumes of exercise. The Biggest Loser TV show doesn't seem to care too much about it though. Most survive, but I wouldn't like to be one of the ones who didn't. Although they probably screen out people with joint problems for their contestants. I think that show may be doing as much harm as good for the general population if bigger people think they need to do 5 hours a day of (often intense) exercise to lose weight with the diet not appearing as a major player.

CKinnard wrote:Re your diet, I am relieved to hear the spready is a sample...and as we've discussed before, that's why I use averaged data for food sub groups. Over the course of a week or month, it evens out very very reliably, even more so when making healthy food choices regularly. That way I don't have to enter how much cucumber, radish, spinach, etc I eat every day. :) Nevertheless, I appreciate you are trying to keep a closer eye on various micronutrients at the moment.
Thanks. :)
I could keep the spreadsheet to myself and avoid judgements, but I share it so people can compare different diets with the results for those diets. By us sharing, hopefully we can make informed decisions about our health and I get some feedback. So thanks to you and thanks to everyone that has posted feedback. :)

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby kb » Tue Apr 14, 2015 1:50 pm

Exercise vs diet is interesting and I expect varies person to person. I haven't done calorie counting but found gym 3 x a week got me from 100kg to 80kg. Cutting out cakes for morning and afternoon tea brings me to 74-5kg. That's around .5 WHTR but I suspect I'll need to actually pay attention to diet to get much further.
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby casual_cyclist » Tue Apr 14, 2015 3:46 pm

Nobody wrote:Some may keep it off, but exercise didn't do a lot for me in regard to long-term weight loss.

I agree with this regarding exercise and weight loss. For 12 weeks I am on a program of: riding to work and home 4 times a week (1/2 hour each way), running 2 times a week (1/2 hour each time), resistance training 2 times a week (~1/2 hour), pilates once a week for 50 minutes plus miscellaneous walking that adds up to about an extra 2 hours a week or more. You would think that with all that exercise, I should be 'losing a lot of weight', except I'm not. Last time I weighed myself I had not lost a single gram (although I am losing fat, which is my goal). For my fitness level, I physically can't fit in more activity because it would eat into my recovery time, which I need to complete the next week. From my perspective at this time, my weight is 100% about what I am eating and drinking and 0% about exercise. That said, if you want to preserve lean muscle while you are losing weight then it is best to exercise. Otherwise your weight loss could be up to 50% muscle. That's not good either.

Don't take this as a complaint, because my goal is to build muscle while maintaining my weight. My only point is that it all comes down to food. I eat the exact amount I need to maintain my weight while building muscle and completing that volume of exercise. If I decide to lose weight I will have to eat less, that's my only option. I can't exercise more without compromising my training program.
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby casual_cyclist » Tue Apr 14, 2015 3:49 pm

Nobody wrote:I could keep the spreadsheet to myself and avoid judgements, but I share it so people can compare different diets with the results for those diets. By us sharing, hopefully we can make informed decisions about our health and I get some feedback. So thanks to you and thanks to everyone that has posted feedback. :)

That's Nobody. I have found the info you provide really useful. It really highlighted for me that my diet is deficient in zinc but more than that, helped me work out how much I need to supplement. I have calculated 3 times a week, which is a whole lot better than supplementing every day if I don't need to.
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Tue Apr 14, 2015 3:59 pm

I regularly average 250-300km per week, and don't lose weight. I've also ridden 700+km/week and not lost weight.
So exercise isn't my weight loss go to.

As for supps, I recommend everyone take a quality multivitamin most days of the week. Plants don't have the nutrient density they had 50 years ago.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Wed Apr 15, 2015 11:42 am



https://www.drmcdougall.com/2014/06/30/food-poisoning/

Those who know of McDougall's work know what to expect. Those who don't may learn something.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby warthog1 » Thu Apr 16, 2015 9:43 am

I'm having trouble swallowing the exercise doesn't lose fat line here. I am only basing my opinion on my own personal experience and that I cycle with some pretty high mileage cyclists, none of whom are overweight and don't appear to have much OCD about what they eat :?
I dropped from low 90's to mid 70's kg by simply taking up cycling. I have never eaten a lot of fast food and don't have a real sweet tooth. If I want to drop weight further, yes I need to watch my diet, but to maintain a relatively healthy weight, w/h ~.46, I don't really need to do much but exercise.
Again I don't see obese people who exercise regularly, I'm talking running and cycling here.
Last edited by warthog1 on Thu Apr 16, 2015 10:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby warthog1 » Thu Apr 16, 2015 9:50 am

CKinnard wrote:I regularly average 250-300km per week, and don't lose weight. I've also ridden 700+km/week and not lost weight.
So exercise isn't my weight loss go to.



You need to do it on more than a one week basis. Incorporate it into your lifestyle. I do 300 km every week, 15k km last year 17k km the year before. That's only about 10-11 hrs a week. Commuting and bunch riding socially.
It would need a pretty crud diet to stack the weight on with a reasonable amount of exercise IMO.
That said exercise and diet would have to be far more effective than exercise alone.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Thu Apr 16, 2015 1:19 pm

warthog1 wrote:
CKinnard wrote:I regularly average 250-300km per week, and don't lose weight. I've also ridden 700+km/week and not lost weight.
So exercise isn't my weight loss go to.



You need to do it on more than a one week basis. Incorporate it into your lifestyle. I do 300 km every week, 15k km last year 17k km the year before. That's only about 10-11 hrs a week. Commuting and bunch riding socially.
It would need a pretty crud diet to stack the weight on with a reasonable amount of exercise IMO.
That said exercise and diet would have to be far more effective than exercise alone.


Well it depends. People overlook that the autonomic, endocrine, digestive, and absorption systems are impervious to ageing, like the rest of the body.
As you age, and/or are subject to stress, these systems can be dysregulated. i.e. metabolic syndrome, hypothyroidism, adrenal exhaustion (which for decades was considered new age rubbish). Give me 30 seasoned cyclists who work full time and have a family to provide for, and they'll have a wildly varying cortisol response to HIIT exercise....and their appetites will be effected accordingly.

edit:
what do you mean "do it more than a one week basis". I do pretty much the same weekly k's you do. I'd wouldn't be able to work if I was going to do 700km/week due to the extra recovery time I'd need.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CXCommuter » Thu Apr 16, 2015 1:51 pm

warthog1 wrote:I'm having trouble swallowing the exercise doesn't lose fat line here. I am only basing my opinion on my own personal experience and that I cycle with some pretty high mileage cyclists, none of whom are overweight and don't appear to have much OCD about what they eat :?
I dropped from low 90's to mid 70's kg by simply taking up cycling. I have never eaten a lot of fast food and don't have a real sweet tooth. If I want to drop weight further, yes I need to watch my diet, but to maintain a relatively healthy weight, w/h ~.46, I don't really need to do much but exercise.
Again I don't see obese people who exercise regularly, I'm talking running and cycling here.

Almost exactly my observations too Warthog, and I do similar km's on a good diet but nowhere near ideal. In fact I can struggle to maintain weight (i.e. losing weight) if I don't eat enough.
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby casual_cyclist » Thu Apr 16, 2015 1:54 pm

warthog1 wrote:
CKinnard wrote:I regularly average 250-300km per week, and don't lose weight. I've also ridden 700+km/week and not lost weight.
So exercise isn't my weight loss go to.

You need to do it on more than a one week basis. Incorporate it into your lifestyle. I do 300 km every week, 15k km last year 17k km the year before. That's only about 10-11 hrs a week. Commuting and bunch riding socially.
It would need a pretty crud diet to stack the weight on with a reasonable amount of exercise IMO.
That said exercise and diet would have to be far more effective than exercise alone.

I average 11 to 12 hours exercise a week including HIIT and resistance training. With recovery time, I have pretty much maxed out my hours. Any additional hours are going to compromise my recovery and my ability to train hard next week. I am very careful how I eat, so I'm not gaining weight, but I'm not losing weight either. My only option to 'lose weight' is to eat less. It is 100% about food for me. Exercise can help with body composition but to control your weight you need to control what goes into your mouth. I like to say 'eat for your waist and exercise for your heart'.
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby warthog1 » Thu Apr 16, 2015 5:50 pm

CKinnard wrote:Well it depends. People overlook that the autonomic, endocrine, digestive, and absorption systems are impervious to ageing, like the rest of the body.
They certainly do age, at a slower rate than some other organs in the body perhaps, but nonetheless they age. :|
http://www.merckmanuals.com/home/digest ... ive-system
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency ... 004000.htm
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15948378

CKinnard wrote:As you age, and/or are subject to stress, these systems can be dysregulated. i.e. metabolic syndrome, hypothyroidism, adrenal exhaustion (which for decades was considered new age rubbish). Give me 30 seasoned cyclists who work full time and have a family to provide for, and they'll have a wildly varying cortisol response to HIIT exercise....and their appetites will be effected accordingly.


Give me 30 seasoned cyclists who do 300 km a week and you will have 30 people who are in much better health than the median for their age and with a better BMI or W/H. I cycle with people who do that as par to stick with the bunch and they are not carrying an obvious high percentage body fat. They are wearing lycra so it's pretty hard to hide.
Those who do that much exercise and manage to stack weight on through an increased appetite will be outliers imo.
I agree that diet is very important and for me to lose more weight I need to modify that but exercise is still an effective way to lose fat to a certain point.
Perhaps we are just discussing different targets with respect to weight loss?

CKinnard wrote:edit:
what do you mean "do it more than a one week basis". I do pretty much the same weekly k's you do. I'd wouldn't be able to work if I was going to do 700km/week due to the extra recovery time I'd need.


When you wrote "regularly average 250-300km a week" I took that to mean from time to time, not as a matter of course. My mistake :)

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby warthog1 » Thu Apr 16, 2015 5:57 pm

casual_cyclist wrote:I average 11 to 12 hours exercise a week including HIIT and resistance training. With recovery time, I have pretty much maxed out my hours. Any additional hours are going to compromise my recovery and my ability to train hard next week. I am very careful how I eat, so I'm not gaining weight, but I'm not losing weight either. My only option to 'lose weight' is to eat less. It is 100% about food for me. Exercise can help with body composition but to control your weight you need to control what goes into your mouth. I like to say 'eat for your waist and exercise for your heart'.



That is about what I average. I should have said fat. I am aware muscle tissue is denser than fat so weight can be unchanged as fat decreases.
However I am comparing us to the median population and I expect our BMI's, W/H are better than the median and must be better than if we didn't exercise. It sounds like we are at the same point. I have plateaued too and will need to tackle diet to lose more weight, but I have lost significant fat through exercise alone and kept it off, which is the point I am trying to debate.

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