Sugar its like a poison

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mikesbytes
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Re: Sugar its like a poison

Postby mikesbytes » Fri Jun 03, 2016 7:16 pm

Constantheadwind wrote:Don't leave starches out either, not long in the alimentary canal before breakdown to simpler sugar molecules occur.
Ultimately everything [excess] gets converted to sugar and as you are pointing out switching from sugar to starch is simply delaying the enviable. I for one use to each too much carbs and have migrated to a more balanced diet.

From the viewpoint of this thread discussion, its sugar that is being loaded into manufactured foods to make them more tasty while limiting the manufacturing costs.
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Re: Sugar its like a poison

Postby Constantheadwind » Sat Jun 04, 2016 9:22 am

Agree

Mostly unnecessary excess energy intake that keeps you coming back for more, frequently.

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Re: Sugar its like a poison

Postby Howzat » Sun Jun 05, 2016 10:24 am

As for how a sugar tax will be applied for different kinds of sugar, I'm pretty sure the boffins at the ATO will be able to work out something. It's been done before.

Beer, wine, and other drinks are taxed for their alcohol volume at varying rates. Exemptions are made for industrial or medical alcohols, and for drunken diplomats. Petrol, diesel, LPG, ethanol, kerosene etc are all taxed at varying rates.

Really, that part is a legislative doddle. Various exemptions can be made say for honey and maple syrup, while cane sugar and similar industrial sweeteners can be taxed on sale at production and import. Imported foodstuffs can be taxed for their sugar weight.

With medical costs for diabetes and obesity climbing, a sugar tax rate of zero is effectively making the public dig into our pockets to subsidise sugar sales. That ought to be rectified.

CSR and Coca-cola won't be happy, so that's a problem, for what it's worth.

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Re: Sugar its like a poison

Postby mikesbytes » Sun Jun 05, 2016 2:31 pm

It would be interesting to see what the costs to society for [as an example] Type 2 diabetes and what the level of Type 2 should be in our society.

The cost example I'm aware of is Tobacco related health costs. Tax on Ciggies is $5B per year and the health cost is $25B per year which means that everyone in Aus is forking out $1K per year for ciggie suckers. [BTW I don't have a reference for the ciggie/health costs, let me know if you know of a reference]
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Re: Sugar its like a poison

Postby biker jk » Sun Jun 05, 2016 4:25 pm

A study on the costs of obesity in Australia (only direct costs were estimated).

http://www.obesityaustralia.org/files/Weighing-the-cost-of-obesity-Final.pdf

Mexico's tax on sugary drinks at 10% cut consumption by 12% (and by 17% among the poorest households).

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/12085408/Children-aged-five-eating-own-weight-in-sugar-every-year.html

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Re: Sugar its like a poison

Postby softy » Sun Jun 05, 2016 6:17 pm

Howzat wrote:
With medical costs for diabetes and obesity climbing, a sugar tax rate of zero is effectively making the public dig into our pockets to subsidise sugar sales. That ought to be rectified.


Well that statement is assuming sugar causes diabetes, or makes it worse. Not everyone is saying sugar causes diabetes, some actually say carbs (basically natural sugars) are the way to cure insulin resistance. They claim fats are the enemy by blocking the insulin from allowing the glucose to enter the muscles as glycogen.

I for one would want some significant science to support sugar is so bad before adding a tax???

So what about FAT? In most foods if you remove fat, sugar is added, remove sugar and fat will be added back. This will be cheaper and easier for manufactures to keep the price competitive.

Is this what we really want?

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Re: Sugar its like a poison

Postby RhapsodyX » Sun Jun 05, 2016 9:33 pm

softy wrote:
Howzat wrote:
With medical costs for diabetes and obesity climbing, a sugar tax rate of zero is effectively making the public dig into our pockets to subsidise sugar sales. That ought to be rectified.


Well that statement is assuming sugar causes diabetes, or makes it worse. Not everyone is saying sugar causes diabetes, some actually say carbs (basically natural sugars) are the way to cure insulin resistance. They claim fats are the enemy by blocking the insulin from allowing the glucose to enter the muscles as glycogen.

I for one would want some significant science to support sugar is so bad before adding a tax???

So what about FAT? In most foods if you remove fat, sugar is added, remove sugar and fat will be added back. This will be cheaper and easier for manufactures to keep the price competitive.

Is this what we really want?


There is a metabolic state at the extreme end of "low fat", where insulin resistance decreases, but for mixed diets the foods which spike insulin (excessive protein, various carbohydrates) have consequences where excessive glucose and free fatty acids are hanging around in the blood stream. No-one is suggesting "no fat" or "no carbs" is a normal diet, and moving from processed rubbish to whole-foods is probably the best answer. And it's not only about manufacturers wanting cheap-to-produce foods on the shelf - removing fat and protein content increases shelf life. There are many shades of grey in the overall food industry and what constitutes "healthy". But softdrinks and food spreads (jams, Nutella etc.) are perfect examples of what should be targeted.

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Re: Sugar its like a poison

Postby johnfordau » Sun Jun 05, 2016 9:44 pm

.. there is any about of scientific evidence that sugar is destructive to our system .. add in the carbs that are consumed and lack of general exercise then you have a problem .. or an epidemic.

The overconsumption of sugar and carbs causes build up of insulin which try convert the oversupply into fat but keep multiplying as more and more sugar and carbs are taken in .. the elevated numbers of insulin in turn drives the feeling of consistently being hungry which inevitable leads to yet another intake of sugar and carbs .. and on .. and on it goes ..

Our bodies where not designed for such abuse.

The answer is simple .. cut out all known sugar .. including alcohol .. soft drinks .. power drinks .. or anything with over three grams of sugar per 100 gram serve .. fruits can replace the sugar effectively without triggering the addiction.

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Re: Sugar its like a poison

Postby Nobody » Sun Jun 05, 2016 10:52 pm

softy wrote:Well that statement is assuming sugar causes diabetes, or makes it worse. Not everyone is saying sugar causes diabetes, some actually say carbs (basically natural sugars) are the way to cure insulin resistance. They claim fats are the enemy by blocking the insulin from allowing the glucose to enter the muscles as glycogen.

Yes, there is enough evidence of this being the case.
viewtopic.php?f=49&t=83496&start=1375#p1352548
viewtopic.php?f=49&t=83496&start=1125#p1333015
http://nutritionfacts.org/topics/diabetes/
First 5 mins of video below.
https://youtu.be/KCnMd4Iwql0

softy wrote:I for one would want some significant science to support sugar is so bad before adding a tax???

There is also enough evidence of sugar being problematic. One of the biggest worries is that sugar is implicated in NAFLD.
http://nutritionfacts.org/topics/sugar/

Adding it to your diet as a liquid is even more problematic since the body doesn't meter it well.

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Re: Sugar its like a poison

Postby roosta » Sun Jun 05, 2016 11:31 pm

mikesbytes wrote:It would be interesting to see what the costs to society for [as an example] Type 2 diabetes and what the level of Type 2 should be in our society.

The cost example I'm aware of is Tobacco related health costs. Tax on Ciggies is $5B per year and the health cost is $25B per year which means that everyone in Aus is forking out $1K per year for ciggie suckers. [BTW I don't have a reference for the ciggie/health costs, let me know if you know of a reference]


RE: tobacco related health costs

The $25 billion (or $31.5B, depending on the source) was not the cost that smokers impose on the healthcare system. It was the "costs to society", which had some very interesting mathematics. The study was done by Collins & Lapsley and was an academic article, written for the Dept. of Health and Ageing back in 2005, and later used to justify the governments increases to tobacco tax in 2012-2013, and again in 2015-2016

Of that $31.5B:
$12B were considered tangible costs. In their report, the net burden on the healthcare system was $320 million. The cost in fighting smoking-related bushfires was $150 million. They attributed $8billion to workforce related costs (absenteeism, reduced workforce), and $3.5billion was attributed to 'abusive consumption costs' (the cost of purchasing tobacco, estimated at market prices, less taxes).

The remaining $19.5billion were defined as intangible costs: the sum of the psychological costs of premature death (incurred by family and friends) and the loss of enjoyment of life (incurred by the smoker) as a consequence of smoking-associated illness.


So just taking into account the tangible costs; the 'measurable' burden on society is around $8.5 billion (the $3.5B is spent by the smokers themselves). The direct 'measurable' burden on government is approx $470million, and they will see a smaller indirect cost in relation to the $8B estimated cost on the workforce.
Current tobacco-tax revenue is around $8billion.


Source:
The costs of tobacco, alcohol and illicit drug abuse to Australian society in 2004/05
http://www.health.gov.au/internet/drugs ... mono64.pdf


...now back to the sugar debate...
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Re: Sugar its like a poison

Postby Ross » Sun Jun 26, 2016 1:47 pm

johnfordau wrote:.. there is any about of scientific evidence that sugar is destructive to our system .. add in the carbs that are consumed and lack of general exercise then you have a problem .. or an epidemic.

The overconsumption of sugar and carbs causes build up of insulin which try convert the oversupply into fat but keep multiplying as more and more sugar and carbs are taken in .. the elevated numbers of insulin in turn drives the feeling of consistently being hungry which inevitable leads to yet another intake of sugar and carbs .. and on .. and on it goes ..

Our bodies where not designed for such abuse.

The answer is simple .. cut out all known sugar .. including alcohol .. soft drinks .. power drinks .. or anything with over three grams of sugar per 100 gram serve .. fruits can replace the sugar effectively without triggering the addiction.


So, I've just been diagnosed with T2 diabetes, probably caused from eating lots of sugar and carbs over the years. Doctor has me on a diet/lifestyle of where possible now not eating carbs and sugar and I have to go back in a week and have another blood test to see if staying off the bad food will allow me to control the diabetes without medication. This new "diet" (I hate to call it a diet, it's not some fad thing I do for a few weeks and then go back to bad food, I need to do this for the rest of my life) has badly effected my cycling. I have no energy or endurance, went for a 100km ride today with friends and struggled to stay with the group and they kept having to slow up and wait for me where a couple of weeks ago I was probably the strongest rider in the group.

I've also lost 3kg in a week, down to 70kg (5'11" tall). Previous to this my weight was stable for years, did loose a few kg when I started cycling but then maintained my weight but put on 3kg this year as I was off the bike for a while with injury and at the same time was loving chocolate way more than I should have.

I am struggling to find food that is suitable to eat, 90%+ of every food label I read at the supermarket has copious amounts of sugar in it. This includes (surprisingly, to me) frozen vegetables and wholemeal bread, both which the doctor recommended I eat more of (doc didn't specifically say frozen vegies but fresh vegies don't keep long enough so I need to buy frozen). Wholemeal bread has more sugar than white bread.

I don't drink alcohol, got on it a fair bit late teens/early twenties as you do going out clubbing etc but then eventually stopped that and slowed down on alcohol consumption because I preferred to get up early and go riding rather than stay in bed half the day hungover. Since the beginning of this year I have been off alcohol completely. Don't really feel any better (or worse) for it, would usually only have 3 or 4 drinks max per week anyway.

I have cut back considerably but not cut out completely hot chocolate. I only have one or maybe two a week post-ride social thing. I don't have any extra sugar so I guess (justifying this to myself) that it's not so bad. I don't drink coffee. I used to have 3 or 4 hot milos every day but now restrict HC consumption to after the ride.

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Re: Sugar its like a poison

Postby biker jk » Sun Jun 26, 2016 2:04 pm

Milo is 46g sugar per 100g and you were having 3-4 a day. There's part of your excess sugar problem.

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Re: Sugar its like a poison

Postby Ross » Sun Jun 26, 2016 2:16 pm

You don't say...

Image

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Re: Sugar its like a poison

Postby mikesbytes » Sun Jun 26, 2016 5:59 pm

That sucks Ross and what makes its more surprising is that you were only 73kg to start with

Captain Obvious - LOL. I'm guilty of that one all the time

I started this thread more from the viewpoint of a discussion about manufacturers lacing products with sugar, which makes them tasty and cheap to manufacture. What I just learnt from you is that frozen vegetables is yet another product with added sugar. I looked in my freezer and the only frozen vegetable I have is frozen corn, which has no added sugar, however its sugar content is 7.7%, so I suppose there isn't a need to add sugar.

I've gradually adapted my diet over the years and will continue to do so, which means that each change is not a big deal. For example my new years resolution was to change most of my coffees from cappuccino's to long blacks and this I achieved. It took about 3 weeks to get used to the coffee change. The benefit being that I cut about 175 calories a hit, leaving more room for beer :)

In your situation you have to make a big leap and that's tough, I feel for you
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Re: Sugar its like a poison

Postby Nobody » Sun Jun 26, 2016 7:36 pm

mikesbytes wrote:I looked in my freezer and the only frozen vegetable I have is frozen corn, which has no added sugar, however its sugar content is 7.7%, so I suppose there isn't a need to add sugar.

A normal person doesn't need worry about the amount of sugars in whole foods. A person with T2D needs to do a food search on the following database to find out how high the GI is. GL matters more though.

http://glycemicindex.com/
Last edited by Nobody on Sun Jun 26, 2016 7:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sugar its like a poison

Postby Ross » Sun Jun 26, 2016 7:43 pm

I was only 1 point over the highest recommendation for blood sugar level, but depending on what site pops up in Google about the matter I'm just under the high level.

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Re: Sugar its like a poison

Postby find_bruce » Mon Jun 27, 2016 9:50 am

That's a bugger Ross. At 70kg and 5'11" you are well outside the usual weight and exercise levels for someone with diabetes.

You might want to print the captain obvious card out - one of the symptoms of diabetes is unsolicited & conflicting advice

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Re: Sugar its like a poison

Postby RhapsodyX » Mon Jun 27, 2016 2:00 pm

And there are so many "cures" out there, you would expect that T2D would be an annoyance like catching a cold. Ditto cancer and obesity.

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Re: Sugar its like a poison

Postby mikesbytes » Tue Jun 28, 2016 10:48 pm

Nobody wrote:
mikesbytes wrote:I looked in my freezer and the only frozen vegetable I have is frozen corn, which has no added sugar, however its sugar content is 7.7%, so I suppose there isn't a need to add sugar.

A normal person doesn't need worry about the amount of sugars in whole foods. A person with T2D needs to do a food search on the following database to find out how high the GI is. GL matters more though.

http://glycemicindex.com/
Perhaps the conversation has got itself a little lost, its more about how food is being laced with sugar to improve its sale-ability and as ridiculous as it is, the adding of sugar to frozen vegetables
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Re: Sugar its like a poison

Postby mikesbytes » Thu Jun 30, 2016 2:42 pm

I noticed that there's been a little bit of talk about sugary based drinks in the election and increasing the tax on them. While its unlikely to happen, if it was based on the % of sugar in the drink, then it would discourage manufacturers from lacing their drinks with copious amounts of added sugar
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Re: Sugar its like a poison

Postby find_bruce » Thu Jun 30, 2016 6:20 pm

The only complication with a sugar tax is substitution of sucrose with glucose, fructose, lactose etc. Dairy farmers, fruit growers etc will bleat long & hard if their products are subject to tax. I have seen some products which include high-fructose corn syrup to bring sugar down the list of ingredients. Similarly you will see tinned fruit with "no added sugar" prominently printed on the label. The fine print ingredients show that they have used a high fructose fruit juice.

Both still show up on the nutrition panel however, assuming they are are accurate, unlike ribena.

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Re: Sugar its like a poison

Postby Nobody » Fri Jul 01, 2016 8:47 am

find_bruce wrote:Similarly you will see tinned fruit with "no added sugar" prominently printed on the label. The fine print ingredients show that they have used a high fructose fruit juice.

The use of fruit juice in tinned fruit isn't a problem if you drain it. The main advantages of fruit juice over sugar syrup IMO is that the fruit tastes more natural and it's generally easier on your teeth.

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Re: Sugar its like a poison

Postby Nobody » Sat Jul 02, 2016 2:11 pm

The below quote is in reference to the US population.

Sugar has long taken the blame for our growing waistlines. But over the past two decades, sugar consumption has actually dropped by 14 percent, while sales of sugary, full-calorie sodas have dipped by 25 percent. Still, obesity rates continue to surge.

A study released this week in the Journal of the American Medical Association found that more Americans than ever are now obese. By the end of 2014, obesity prevalence stood at 35 percent for men and an all-time high 40 percent for women.


93% of the US diet consists of grains and animal products. By calories, their average diet has a carb/fat/protein ratio of 40:40:20. So yes, sugar is a problem, but arguably not the main one.

Warning: The link below promotes a vegan diet. Some may find this offensive.
Quote above from here.

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Re: Sugar its like a poison

Postby RhapsodyX » Sat Jul 02, 2016 4:48 pm

Nobody wrote:The below quote is in reference to the US population.

Sugar has long taken the blame for our growing waistlines. But over the past two decades, sugar consumption has actually dropped by 14 percent, while sales of sugary, full-calorie sodas have dipped by 25 percent. Still, obesity rates continue to surge.

A study released this week in the Journal of the American Medical Association found that more Americans than ever are now obese. By the end of 2014, obesity prevalence stood at 35 percent for men and an all-time high 40 percent for women.


93% of the US diet consists of grains and animal products. By calories, their average diet has a carb/fat/protein ratio of 40:40:20. So yes, sugar is a problem, but arguably not the main one.

Warning: The link below promotes a vegan diet. Some may find this offensive.
Quote above from here.


Possibly faulty research along the lines of the Australian Paradox Controversy? (There's more detail here). I find it interesting that all of the obvious research in the United States is around consumption of "soda beverages", not overall "added sugar" consumption. Drink consumption might be down, but what about the sugars added to everything else these days : tomato sauce, most baked goods etc. etc. It's pretty hard to find products that *don't* have sugar added unless you make everything from scratch.

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Re: Sugar its like a poison

Postby mikesbytes » Sat Jul 02, 2016 7:44 pm

That's what I'm discussing, about sugar being added to pretty much everything. When you make those things yourself you most likely to add a lot less sugar or no sugar at all
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