Plant Based Diet Thread

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CKinnard
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:00 pm

Nobody wrote:
CKinnard wrote:The overridnig criteria of this class is roughly 75g per serve.

I believe they made the serving size 75g because generally it's cooked. But like you and I, most are going to measure/weigh veg raw. I think they should have made the serving size 150g (measured raw) like fruit.


I experimented with energy densities years ago when messing with dumbing down energy consumption.
I found if you lightly steamed a cup of non leafy green mixed vege (carrot, beans, snow peas, capsicum, broccoli, etc, etc), they do not reduce in volume significantly if at all.
So the guidelines truism that a cup of raw vege equals a xed vege (carrot, beans, snow peas, capsicum, broccoli, etc, etc), they do not reduce in volume significantly if at all.
So the guidelines truism that a WHOLE cup of raw vege equals a HALF cup of cooked vege, is bogus imo.


Here's the guidelines on what constitutes a serve of vegetables, followed by my calcs on the av. energy content of each:

½ cup cooked green or orange vegetables (for example, broccoli, spinach, carrots or pumpkin) 13 Calories and an av. weight of 17g.
½ cup cooked dried or canned beans, peas or lentils (preferably with no added salt) 85-100 Calories wet wt 75g
1 cup green leafy or raw salad vegetables 25 Cals, 35g
½ cup sweet corn 65 Cals, 75g
½ medium potato or other starchy vegetables (sweet potato, taro or cassava) 60Cals, 75g
1 medium tomato 27 Cals, 150g

so a serve from the same food group varies thus:
Calories from 13 to 100.
weight from 17g to 150g.

When this is the best a gubmint committee can do, no wonder pplz are confused and fat.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sat Aug 04, 2018 6:18 pm

Another perspective on the consumption of oil.


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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:19 am

I think it is almost a universal truism that any food substance is better consumed closer to its natural form.

Concentrating and refining anything will accelerate its absorption.

It's only when you begin to really study digestion and absorption that you realize the human gut is optimized to digest and absorb food in its close to natural state.
The gut is optimized to deal with boluses (rounded masses) of food, which are reliant on lots of water soluble fiber, and a well hydrated system. These boluses are extemely important in slowing down the release of energy into the blood stream, and preventing glucose and insulin spikes (thereby not stressing or overworking the pancreas).

Rememberl, when you are next asked where do you get your protein, retort with where do you get your fiber.

I had a patient this week - who like most South Africans is a BIG red meat eater. She unfortunately doesn't eat adequate vege or fiber which compounds things terribly. Anyway, for several years she has been iron deficient. She finally had a GP motivated to investigate all angles, with a FOBT (fecal occult blood test) for signs of polyps or cancer or other disturbances of the colon wall. Her result is very positive, and now she is up for an express colonoscopy. The condition she saw me for may very well be secondary tumors.

Nevertheless, my opinion is we don't have to be extreme and eat everything raw and processed.
We appear to be able to tolerate small amounts of blending and refining, and moderate amounts of heating.

Either way, there's fat in most foods, even fruit and vegetables.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sun Aug 05, 2018 4:02 pm

CKinnard wrote:I think it is almost a universal truism that any food substance is better consumed closer to its natural form.

Concentrating and refining anything will accelerate its absorption.

Yes I keep this in mind.
Coincidentally I tried about a week or so of almost doubling my fat intake. I did this by increasing my nuts and doubling my oatmeal/porridge. In the end I felt more tired/lethargic so I stopped. So then I thought the oats are currently the most processed food I eat. So I'm trying a week or two with no oats to see if anything changes. I've kept my nuts up to 30 g/d to keep my fat around 30 g/d, or about 9% of energy, or about 0.45 g/kw BW.

CKinnard wrote:Remember, when you are next asked where do you get your protein, retort with where do you get your fiber.

Thanks, I do. Although I don't get many pointed questions these days about diet IRL because the regulars know it's a battle they won't win. They still try to mock me for being different. But that's to be expected. It stems from their insecurities about what they are doing to themselves. Cakes and biscuits are a regular shared item in the lunch room on top of the usual AU diet. This is where folding to peer pressure is dangerous, which they generally do.


CKinnard wrote:I had a patient this week - who like most South Africans is a BIG red meat eater.

Yes I know a family from there and they fit right into the AU culture of lots of animal products. RX posted an article on page 124 of the Diet Thread which was about the diet history in AU over the last 150 years. In summary, the diet was mainly meat and sugar.

CKinnard wrote:Anyway, for several years she has been iron deficient.

I was told about some 20 years ago by a guy who had bowel cancer to check for iron anaemia with a blood test annually. Of course I didn't do it until I changed my diet to find it was too late (with too much iron). :roll:

CKinnard wrote:The condition she saw me for may very well be secondary tumors.

So she probably doesn't have long to live then. If so, likely another victim of the food industries and the western countries' food culture.

CKinnard wrote:Nevertheless, my opinion is we don't have to be extreme and eat everything raw and [un]processed.
We appear to be able to tolerate small amounts of blending and refining, and moderate amounts of heating.

Either way, there's fat in most foods, even fruit and vegetables.

Yes, I agree. Fat is necessary and processing has its advantages. I may have been getting/absorbing too little fat, which may have been contributing to my eczema symptoms. I think McDougall's influence still affects me somewhat.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:00 pm

The lady with the secondary tumors. In addition to what you have done with her diet, tell her that cancer patients increase their chances of survival if they do regular exercise.

My pancreas cancer friend was diagnosed in Jan 2017 and is still with us where most with pancreas cancer are dead within 6 months. There's numerous other examples.
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sun Aug 05, 2018 10:13 pm

Popper had the same sentiment but didn't elaborate. Goji has elaborated a bit more.


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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Wed Aug 22, 2018 7:48 am

The BMJ continuing to open its mind to the benefits of water fasting and WFPB SOS.
Here, they publish a 3 year follow up.

Follow-up of water-only fasting and an exclusively
plant food diet in the management of stage IIIa, low-
grade follicular lymphoma
http://casereports.bmj.com/content/2018 ... 0.full.pdf

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Wed Aug 22, 2018 10:44 am

Thanks for posting CK.
Nice to see a case study published in a journal that's more likely to be read. Hopefully there will be more in time. Enough for some to consider water fasting then a WFPB diet change, instead of, or in addition to the standard medical treatment. As you know, I live my life in such a way that I hope to never have to face such an illness. But if I do, I think I'll try the supervised water only fasting first to see what results I get. Subscribe to Popper's Wellness Forum Health. Then decide from there how to proceed.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Wed Aug 22, 2018 12:08 pm

Coconut Oil.

The American Heart Association advised against consuming too much of it in June 2017, after a study found that all saturated fats — regardless of the source — are damaging to heart health.


Harvard professor slams coconut oil as ‘pure poison’

I've posted previously about coconut products, saturated fat and arterial health. So the above is no surprise. But it did give me pause for thought on how much saturated fat I'm currently consuming daily and whether I could trim it.
I take linseed (flax) for omega-3 ALA. Oats and almonds for omega-6 LA. Brazil nuts for selenium. But the side effect is I still consume about 4 to 5 grams of saturated fat per day. Looking at what I'm looking for in regard to omega fats as a ratio to saturated fat, I find linseed the best, followed by almonds, then oats. Brazil nuts are very high in saturated fat with 15.1 g/100g. So it looks like I'll back off on the Brazil nuts and oats to reduce the saturated fat intake.

Yes, I realise that the above is considered reductionism by the likes of Campbell and it plays more to McDougall's teachings on fats. But until there is a lot of science telling me that the saturated fat in nuts & seeds isn't harmful at all, I'll keep it to the minimum required to get my essential fats for now. It's one of those, if you can't afford to lose, don't play, scenarios.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Wed Aug 22, 2018 9:20 pm

Nobody wrote:Coconut Oil.

The American Heart Association advised against consuming too much of it in June 2017, after a study found that all saturated fats — regardless of the source — are damaging to heart health.


Harvard professor slams coconut oil as ‘pure poison’

I've posted previously about coconut products, saturated fat and arterial health. So the above is no surprise. But it did give me pause for thought on how much saturated fat I'm currently consuming daily and whether I could trim it.
I take linseed (flax) for omega-3 ALA. Oats and almonds for omega-6 LA. Brazil nuts for selenium. But the side effect is I still consume about 4 to 5 grams of saturated fat per day. Looking at what I'm looking for in regard to omega fats as a ratio to saturated fat, I find linseed the best, followed by almonds, then oats. Brazil nuts are very high in saturated fat with 15.1 g/100g. So it looks like I'll back off on the Brazil nuts and oats to reduce the saturated fat intake.

Yes, I realise that the above is considered reductionism by the likes of Campbell and it plays more to McDougall's teachings on fats. But until there is a lot of science telling me that the saturated fat in nuts & seeds isn't harmful at all, I'll keep it to the minimum required to get my essential fats for now. It's one of those, if you can't afford to lose, don't play, scenarios.


On the odd occasion when I eat at a Thai restaurant I steer clear of the coconut curries however I'm sure there's a fair bit of saturated fat in the other dishes.

I beg the question is there an acceptable level or formula or whatever calculation for saturated fat? Yes I'm sure there's studies out there that say one thing while another study says another thing. I'm thinking more along the lines of the point where the negative goes ramping up rather than going for zero negative
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Wed Aug 22, 2018 10:53 pm

Congrats to True North Health....for their second report published by the BMJ (a three year follow up)
http://casereports.bmj.com/content/2018 ... 0.full.pdf

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Thu Aug 23, 2018 2:10 pm

mikesbytes wrote:I beg the question is there an acceptable level or formula or whatever calculation for saturated fat? Yes I'm sure there's studies out there that say one thing while another study says another thing. I'm thinking more along the lines of the point where the negative goes ramping up rather than going for zero negative

This video should cover it.


Associated link:
https://nutritionfacts.org/video/trans-fat-saturated-fat-and-cholesterol-tolerable-upper-intake-of-zero/

Just like sugar, there is no sweet spot for saturated fat. It is a sliding scale from zero. The upper limits are usually there for unhealthy components because the authorities know that a large majority of the population haven't got the willpower and/or circumstances to get down near zero. So to answer your question about what is acceptable/tolerable by the WHO:
WHO wrote:...the total intake of SFA not exceed 10% E.

http://www.who.int/nutrition/topics/FFA ... lusion.pdf
So <= 10% of total calories, or 22 grams of saturated fat for a 2000 Cal diet. By comparison my 4 grams is about 1.3% of my nominal 2700 Cal.

As said, I'd prefer as close to zero as possible for saturated fat. I can get it down to 4 grams/day without compromising the omega 3 & 6 intake too much. AFAIK my intake is zero for both cholesterol and trans, and the oats and almonds are said to have a LDL cholesterol lowering effect. But compared to what? I'm taking a reductionist view at the moment, but a person with a whole food view wouldn't care. Trusting that the whole foods have enough in other components in that particular food to counter the saturated fat. But that clearly doesn't work for whole coconut. The video below shows that those eating a lot of whole coconut have high cholesterol.
https://youtu.be/vCHPhIzOUOw?t=46s
Associated link:
https://nutritionfacts.org/video/what-about-coconuts-coconut-milk-and-coconut-oil-mcts/

All I know is my LDL has been dropping very slowly for years. To my knowledge the nuts, seeds and oats haven't appeared to hinder that.
Last edited by Nobody on Thu Aug 23, 2018 2:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

march83
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby march83 » Thu Aug 23, 2018 2:54 pm

Currently eating 10-15g of saturated fats but I'm making a conscious effort to eat more fat than I would if I just ate what I'm used to. I'm adding 2 avocados and a teaspoon of coconut oil to my dinner somewhere (cooking in it, or adding it to hot carob+almond milk).

If I don't make a conscious effort to eat fat I eat as little as 30g a day, maybe 5g saturated but it's not ideal for my mood and libido. I definitely feel more fatigue too - when I'm eating 80/10/10 i have periods of notable fatigue, but at 70/20/10 (C/F/P) I can tolerate higher exercise workloads.

Edit, haven't had blood tests in a while which I should do now before I start dieting got summer racing...
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Nobody's Supplement List, Winter 2018

Postby Nobody » Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:38 am

Nobody's Supplement List, Winter 2018:

New readers please note - The following is a list is specific to me and my particular age (50 yo), sex, problems, plant only diet and absorption rates. I recommend that everyone continue to do their own research, get blood tests and figure out what they individually do or don't require long term. Which depends on their age, sex, diet and genetics. The only essential on the list below for plant only eaters is B12. The research and tests are worth the effort - especially if eating a plant only diet - to avoid long term problems and therefore failure to continue on a healthier eating path.

Below is the list of what I'm currently taking. It will probably change toward the end of the year due to blood test results and other factors.

Code: Select all

TYPE               DAILY AMOUNT      RECOMMENDED (ADULT, MALE)

B12 Methyl           1 mg            1 to 2 mg for methyl   - VH
Calcium             ~300 mg          0 for > 500 mg/d from food - WHO
D-3                  2000 IU         400 IU, UL 3200 IU - NRV | 600 IU, UL 4000 IU - VH
DHA                  200 mg          200-300 mg every 2-3 days - VH
Iodine               225 ug          150 ug, UL 1100 ug - NRV   
Linseed ground       12 g            7+ g, or 1 to 2 tbsp - Esselstyn, Greger, various
Zinc                 12 mg           14 mg - NRV


VH = Vegan Health / Jack Norris
NRV = Nutritent Reference Values (AU)
WHO = World Health Organization
UL = Upper Limit
ug = mcg = micro grams

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sun Aug 26, 2018 12:19 pm

I've been working with a large multinational HR group for a few months.
I met with their national OH&S director during the week to discuss my experience and views on reducing workplace injuries.

I was surprised at his low exposure to the science re human tissue degeneration, and what keeps it healthy. There's still a lop sided focus on exercise being the OH&S cure all, with essentially no thought given to other lifestyle factors like diet and hydration.

He asked if I could back my more inclusive views with science references. As a starter, I referred him to the following:

Greger's video re low back pain and diet
https://nutritionfacts.org/video/back-i ... olesterol/

https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/49/15/984
Lipids, adiposity and tendinopathy: is there a mechanistic link? Critical
review

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:54 pm

CKinnard wrote:There's still a lop sided focus on exercise being the OH&S cure all, with essentially no thought given to other lifestyle factors like diet and hydration.

Exercise as a ubiquitous cure-all, stands in the way of people getting the message about diet and will probably do so for decades to come.

A good example was at work a while ago. My manager was talking about his 80+ yo father in a nursing home with Alzheimer's disease that couldn't recognise his own son anymore. When I tried to mention the impact of diet on such an illness, he outright dismissed it saying it's not that. But was because his father didn't get exercise after his last operation, as was recommended by his son. His son said it was his father's own fault because of this. I wonder what his attitude would have been if the father still got Alzheimer's after he did the recommended exercise. I believe there have been a reasonable number of Esselstyn's patients who did get exercise and still had atherosclerotic problems. I remember one being a marathon runner previous to his problem.
We've seen examples on these forums of people being puzzled because they think they are "super healthy" because they exercise a lot. But still get DVT or some other vascular disease. Not that I'm saying I'm immune from problems. But at least I'm trying to cover the all bases, so to speak.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sun Aug 26, 2018 8:53 pm

Nobody wrote: Not that I'm saying I'm immune from problems. But at least I'm trying to cover the all bases, so to speak.


Yes, as Lord Gautama said, "decay is inherent in all living things, seek your own salvation with diligence".

re the body, crap is going to happen....so it pays not to accelerate it with poor lifestyle choices.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:52 am

I was watching Greger's video below and I now better understand Greger's stance on why he says cyano is preferable to methyl B12. Not only does he say more studies have been done on cyano. But the main reason is that methyl has poor stability and therefore a poor shelf life. So if you take methyl every day like I do, that's not as much of a problem since even lower doses daily may suffice. But if you're only taking 1 to 3 times a week and you don't know what the real dose is, then that can lead to trouble. Which it did in my case at 3 times a week. So what I get from his video, is if you are going to use methyl:
  • Store it in the fridge
  • Take a higher dose and take it daily
  • Don't buy too much at once
  • Get a blood test occasionally to see how you're going. Change brands and up the dose if you're going backwards.



The reasons I persist with methyl is that it's the natural form found in the body and I have a problem with consuming small amounts of cyanide if I don't have to. Especially as a cyclist because it deprives one of oxygen absorption.
How Cyanide Poisons
In a nutshell, cyanide prevents cells from using oxygen to make energy molecules.

https://www.thoughtco.com/overview-of-cyanide-poison-609287

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:02 am

Vegan Big Mac. Wouldn't the phrase "Big Mac" be copyrighted?

https://thebrag.com/vegan-big-mac-cronulla/
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:29 am

Looks like it's not officially on the menu. That might be how they're getting around it so far.
Note: When I visited the Dogma the Vegan Big Mac wasn’t on the menu...


Products like these are only of great value to vegans mainly interested in animal rights and/or the environment. Such a product would only be marginally healthier than an animal product burger IMO.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sat Sep 01, 2018 6:37 pm

Raw Food Diet? Wonder no more. Or wonder less, anyway.



I learnt from it that I'm eating a "high-raw diet". What I do cook is no more than 100 deg C and the only legumes I eat are peas. So my diet is pretty safe. It looks like supplementation is essential, which is no surprise to me. Particularly, B12, D and omega-3s.

At the end I thought her exercise program was over the top. But I agree with her that people that are WFPO are on display to the rest of the world, so it's a good motivator for us to set at least a reasonable example. I regret having so many issues along the way as it hasn't painted a good picture. But I hope to do better moving forward from this point, since the extra vit-D appears to have almost eliminated the eczema so far. I hope it becomes a distant memory as the months pass. At this point I not only blame myself for the problems, but also the books I read that were too "sugar coated". Or not thorough enough about the potential problems and suggested supplementation.

5 years vegan comes up on 10th Oct this year. A milestone for me.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:26 am

The bill treats access to healthy food as 'a basic human right

https://www.plantbasednews.org/post/california-bill-proposes-vegan-prison-and-hospital-meals

I've wondered how I'd cope if I needed to go to hospital. If this passes, then hopefully and eventually it will spread throughout the world.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby jaythefordman » Tue Sep 04, 2018 3:21 pm

Nobody wrote:
How Cyanide Poisons
In a nutshell, cyanide prevents cells from using oxygen to make energy molecules.

https://www.thoughtco.com/overview-of-cyanide-poison-609287


That's a complicated way of explaining it, particularly with respect to oxygen uptake in cells, but I also understand that CN- is also complexed with Haemoglobin, thus preventing oxygen transport to the cells in the first place. This is why in Cyanide poisoning is accompanied by going blue (Cyanide complexes are blue ;) )

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Tue Sep 04, 2018 3:29 pm

Nobody wrote:
The bill treats access to healthy food as 'a basic human right

https://www.plantbasednews.org/post/california-bill-proposes-vegan-prison-and-hospital-meals

I've wondered how I'd cope if I needed to go to hospital. If this passes, then hopefully and eventually it will spread throughout the world.

It's probably going to be an improvement on what they currently provide and I have this image of people who never eat vegetables actually eating vegetables but it still boils down to what they actually provide, chips and baked products laced with trans fats isn't going to cut it.

For a small % of people in prison/hospital it will improve their lives as this small % will return to the community with better eating habits. I'm sure I'm only a google search away from documents that state that released prisoners are less likely to re-offend if their diet is improved
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Fri Sep 14, 2018 4:32 pm

does anyone use an online shop for whole foods?
I want to get some organic oat groats, buckwheat, and various legumes, preferably Australian grown.
I don't particularly like doing business with Woolies or Coles.

I just put an order in with this mob (cos I liked their website :roll:
https://www.affordablewholefoods.com.au/contact-us/

They have physical stores in Lismore and Coffs Harbour so presume they legit.

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