Plant Based Diet Thread

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:06 pm

An illustrative video, in general terms from PCRM's perspective on the associations between diet, microbiome and chronic disease.


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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:55 pm

Channel 9 showed first screening of Mosley's "The Truth about Sleep" 2 nights ago.
It's available here
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5oh1b9

Two nice insights:
- earlier they show that 3 hours delayed sleep significantly increases appetite.
- in the last 12 minutes, there's early evidence the galactooligosaccharides in legumes are digested by gut bacteria to produce metabolites including SCFAs, which have a significant effect on helping one sleep more soundly. Mosley took a prebiotic supplement with concentrated GOS (from legumes), and his sleep quality improved significantly.

Anecdotally, I thing gut pain or disturbance is a major cause of poor sleep.
Though what causes these symptoms is imv multifactorial....and therefore requires a total lifestyle solution.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:32 pm

Nobody wrote:
CKinnard wrote:hmmm....I am not a big fan of using libido as a health metric...Many people with 'healthy libido' in the West become owned by it, at the expense of cultivating intellectual power, empathy, responsibility to family and community, personal growth.

Agree. IIRC I think it was Campbell who wrote in one of his books that women in the US on average had a 50% longer fertility period compared with the rural Chinese women. That appears to suggest that western style diets are creating unnatural hormone levels. This will appear strange from the perspective of a normal westerner, but I find it's empowering to be largely free of the 'healthy libido'.

I saw the video from a different angle, he decided to test on himself what hormone changes would happen if he increased or decreased his fat intake and communicated it thru libido rather than a bunch of scientific numbers. I also saw that he adjusted his chosen diet to meet his objective rather than adjusting the objective to justify his diet.
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:38 pm

Edit: Removed as not relevant. Sorry.
Last edited by Nobody on Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:45 pm

CKinnard wrote:Channel 9 showed first screening of Mosley's "The Truth about Sleep" 2 nights ago.
It's available here...

Thanks. I saw at least some of it as my wife was watching it.

CKinnard wrote:Two nice insights:
- earlier they show that 3 hours delayed sleep significantly increases appetite.

No surprise to me as a 24 hour shift worker. Sometimes I'm surprised I can even keep ideal weight for height.

CKinnard wrote:- in the last 12 minutes, there's early evidence the galactooligosaccharides in legumes are digested by gut bacteria to produce metabolites including SCFAs, which have a significant effect on helping one sleep more soundly. Mosley took a prebiotic supplement with concentrated GOS (from legumes), and his sleep quality improved significantly.

I saw he subjectively gave it a 9 out of 10. The only legumes I eat now are green peas (about 150 to 200g/d) since they are are the only ones my gut appears to be able to handle well.

CKinnard wrote:Anecdotally, I thing gut pain or disturbance is a major cause of poor sleep.
Though what causes these symptoms is imv multifactorial....and therefore requires a total lifestyle solution.

I find another down side of 100g+ of fibre per day is having to urinate multiple times per night. This is why I prefer to eat more food earlier in the day if I can. But it's often not possible.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:40 am

Nobody wrote:I find another down side of 100g+ of fibre per day is having to urinate multiple times per night. This is why I prefer to eat more food earlier in the day if I can. But it's often not possible.


hmmm. that's not necessarily connected. I presume you know you can reduce water intake if you are smashing watery vege.

nocturia as you age is often due to spinal cord or nerve root irritation/compression due to degenerating discs, even if you have no other neuro symptoms.
and anxiety is another commonly overlooked one. some ppl stop experiencing it on extended holidays or when they retire.
other causes that are overlooked are bladder prolapse and enlarged prostate.

Hatha yoga stretches and breathing/abdominal exercises are the best therapy to trial for bladder/bowel issues.

I've had an OAB since my late 20s. It came on suddenly during a strong viral illness that started CFS. It no doubt contributes to the CFS due to the interrupted sleep I've had every night since.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:02 am

CKinnard wrote:
Nobody wrote:I find another down side of 100g+ of fibre per day is having to urinate multiple times per night. This is why I prefer to eat more food earlier in the day if I can. But it's often not possible.


hmmm. that's not necessarily connected. I presume you know you can reduce water intake if you are smashing watery vege.

nocturia as you age is often due to spinal cord or nerve root irritation/compression due to degenerating discs, even if you have no other neuro symptoms.
and anxiety is another commonly overlooked one. some ppl stop experiencing it on extended holidays or when they retire.
other causes that are overlooked are bladder prolapse and enlarged prostate.

Hatha yoga stretches and breathing/abdominal exercises are the best therapy to trial for bladder/bowel issues.

I've had an OAB since my late 20s. It came on suddenly during a strong viral illness that started CFS. It no doubt contributes to the CFS due to the interrupted sleep I've had every night since.


Fair enough. I noticed first at 39 yo about 6 years before I started this and about the same time I developed Menere's Disease. However it could still also be related to the long list of symptoms of Hemochromatosis, prostate issues and disc degeneration problems. I probably have them all. But I still believe diet is a contributing factor than when more dehydrated on a western diet. Probably every 1.5 to 2 hours on average. Water intake varies with diet and activity but is not that much thirst driven as I don't have a good thirst mechanism. I probably drink at least 1L/d on average and far more before/after cycling. Far less if I eat 3/4 of a watermelon. But I find that just water can go through me in less than an hour.

I never stated I was the healthiest person to start with. If I was healthy, I probably wouldn't have changed - like most people who know of the benefits - but I'm obviously improved on what I would have been due to lifestyle choices. Otherwise I might be one of those difficult cases by now in regards to health. I didn't start with the best genetics or upbringing having a lower vertebrae which is sloped and spinal facet joint problems since I was 14 yo. Then I've had a lot of bicycle, skate board and quite a few motorcycle accidents. To say I'm probably fortunate to still be alive is probably accurate considering how some of the accidents could have gone. Almost all of us have issues to deal with. Just usually there is no point bringing them up.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:26 am

In regards to the guy who tested out fat levels in his diet to see the effect, he is customising his diet to meet his objectives. Whether those objectives are good or not is for him to determine.

In regards to the Australian diet having fat making up 30% of calories I see a couple of points on that;
1. This figure matches what was being recommended in the 90's. I'm not sure what is currently being recommended but that recommendation does sound a little high.
2. A better recommended calculation would probably entail a breakdown on the types of fat.
3. If the average Australian diet has say 130% of daily calorie needs [I don't know the actual figure] then the average Australian diet in this example would be consuming 39% of the needed calories from fat

Over exercise can also contribute to insufficient sleep, which can also contribute to fatigue eating caused by the combo of being tired by not sleeping

Weak pelvic floor and bowl irritation are also contributors to having to go to the bathroom too many times. Excess water consumption as you mentioned, its difficult to get water needs right as there are so many variables. I don't consume enough water, I'm aware of that but that's one of my imperfections :(

Historically we all probably had bad diets, back in my youth I thought chinese food was the healthy alternative to western food. No logic in it at all, simply ignorance
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:34 am

I think it's fair to say most of us are damaged goods, even by the age of 30.

Re the way my OAB started (during an acute flu like viral illness), the most parsimonious explanation is that viruses can change neural sensitivity, or firing thresholds, either directly or by autoimmunity. THis is the case with shingles and myasthenia gravis, to name a few. I like to think these things can resolve, but it's not something well understood, by a long shot.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby march83 » Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:59 pm

We are all a bunch of invalids, aren't we?

I think OAB is far far far more prevalent than men are willing to admit. Mine is activated by stress, dehydration (and the compensatory over-hydration), fatigue and carbonated drinks. The fact that I had an 8.5mm herniated disc at L5-S1 at 29 (now 34) almost certainly doesn't help. Considering that I'm always a little stressed (work), a little dehydrated (riding too much) or over-hydrated (drinking lots to catch up), a little fatigued ~15hr training weeks) and I rehydrate with mineral water or kombucha far too often, I've just had to come to terms with the fact that I need to pee pretty much all the time. Waking at night to pee mainly occurs on nights that I've ridden/trained late in the day - if I ride home from work I'll typically eat a fibre heavy dinner plus drink a few litres of fluid in the hours before bed so I'm invariably up at 2am to drain the tank.

Going back to the libido thing, I've found myself in some "interesting" situations over the past year or so which have led me to consider the role that diet plays in libido and ability to perform. I definitely experienced a big drop in libido when I went vegan/pbwf and at my age I considered that to be a problem rather than a benefit. That directed me to find ways to restore it somewhat which I've largely achieved by some combination of zinc supplements, stress management techniques, eating >10% fat (chia, flax and avocados daily) and sleep. Interestingly, I now find that cravings and impulsives which would previously have been focused on sex are now more likely to be directed at food - kinda weird, but whatever.
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:21 pm

march83 wrote:We are all a bunch of invalids, aren't we?

Well at least I am. :) The problem for me is I find as I look much healthier than I am, so others expect me to be fully functioning. Hearing loss from Menere's is my main functionality problem, among others. It's hard to hear over the tinnitus with the one good ear.

march83 wrote:...combination of zinc supplements...

Thanks for posting. That should help as others who are having problems they want to resolve.
I was watching one of the YouTube vids from "Heathy Crazy Cool" who is a dietitian or whatever they're called. He said if you're supplementing 25mg of zinc or more, to be also supplementing copper. Otherwise you can be copper deficient which he said IIRC has some major implications like nerve or neurological problems. Anyway you can find it in one of his more recent Q & As if you want the info. I'm currently supplementing 12mg/d to offset my hemochromatosis. When I stopped supplementation (some months ago), my ferritin climbed.
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:29 pm

CKinnard wrote:I like to think these things can resolve, but it's not something well understood, by a long shot.

I think most of us are "circling the drain" pretty hard by 50 yo on. From 50 to 60 is usually the period we lose most of our muscle mass IIRC. So I'm not expecting anything to resolve itself. Just limiting the added damage from this point. :)

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:44 am

Starts before 50 but more obvious as you age. Not just muscle mass to consider but bone density as well. Add to that balance
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:28 am

mikesbytes wrote:In regards to the Australian diet having fat making up 30% of calories I see a couple of points on that;
1. This figure matches what was being recommended in the 90's. I'm not sure what is currently being recommended but that recommendation does sound a little high.

In the end, what the WHO recommends is probably worth listening to over the AU recommendations. 31% is what AU people actually eat on average.
Carbohydrate contributed the largest proportion of total energy, supplying 45% on average with the balance of energy coming from fat (31%), protein (18%), alcohol (3.4%) and dietary fibre (2.2%).
http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf ... 4.0.55.007

WHO wrote:Less than 30% of total energy intake from fats (1, 2, 3). Unsaturated fats (e.g. found in fish, avocado, nuts, sunflower, canola and olive oils) are preferable to saturated fats (e.g. found in fatty meat, butter, palm and coconut oil, cream, cheese, ghee and lard) (3). Industrial trans fats (found in processed food, fast food, snack food, fried food, frozen pizza, pies, cookies, margarines and spreads) are not part of a healthy diet.
http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs394/en/

For more in-depth articles on the WHO nutrition specifics:
http://www.who.int/nutrition/publications/nutrient/en/


mikesbytes wrote:2. A better recommended calculation would probably entail a breakdown on the types of fat.

AU recommendations on the specific types of fat:
https://www.nrv.gov.au/nutrients/fats-total-fat-fatty-acids

WHO recommendations on the specific types of fat:
http://www.who.int/nutrition/topics/FFA_summary_rec_conclusion.pdf

I'm only concerned with getting the essential ALA and LA (which I get enough of). To me all the other fats are just baggage at this stage. Some time in the future I'll get my omega-3 Index checked and then act from there. I may have to take an algae derived DHA/EPA supplement as I get closer to 60 yo.
There is a lot of contention surrounding this topic. From one side saying the whole thing is an unnecessary scam, to the other saying either supplementation or at least testing is essential for responsible health management.

mikesbytes wrote:Starts before 50 but more obvious as you age. Not just muscle mass to consider but bone density as well. Add to that balance

I must sound like a health fanatic, but I already work on bone density and balance. I do sprints and lifting for bone density and specific exercises to train balance, since I've started poor in both. Balance because of Menere's. I'm not sure of the why of bone density (other than eating too much meat in my early years of life), but every time I get an X-ray I get comments about low bone density. Oh well, starting behind encourages me to work harder.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:10 pm

How diet can decrease bone density:

- excess protein (especially animal sourced) leads to excess sulfates which leach calcium from bones
- 4 or more coffees a day is associated with increased risk of spine and hip fractures.
- phosphorus in carbonated drinks
- high intake of the animal derived form of Vitamin A (retinol) is associated with increased hip fractures. the plant derived form beta carotene is not.
- high sodium intake increases calcium losses via urine and sweat.
- wheat bran reduces calcium absorption of foods eaten at same time.
- alcohol reduces absorption of Vit D and calcium
- a diet low in vege and fruit has an acidifying effect on serum, which will leach calcium to buffer.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:19 pm

Must admit I haven't put a lot of thought into bone density. By the nature of my work my bones are getting the workout they need. However a few years back my Mum had problems with excess calcium in her body, which I think she fixed by reducing calcium in her diet. I'll ask her next time I talk to her

Balance, the difference I see between young people and old people is dramatic. Has anyone researched balance from a nutrition viewpoint?
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:37 pm

Mike, your Mum might have misunderstood what the doctor said.
Serum calcium is tightly controlled, otherwise your heart stops working!
Though it can be caused by hyperparathyoidism though this is rare.
Some drugs and calcium supplements can elevate it.
I would hazard a guess that she was told she has calcified plaques or calcium deposits in joints, and she has misunderstood the significance of that.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:44 pm

CKinnard wrote:How diet can decrease bone density: ...

Another one is dairy.
https://nutritionfacts.org/video/is-milk-good-for-our-bones/

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:47 pm

Nobody wrote:
CKinnard wrote:How diet can decrease bone density: ...

Another one is dairy.
https://nutritionfacts.org/video/is-milk-good-for-our-bones/


ah yes. how remiss of me!
the one dietitians particularly don't like.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:16 pm

Similar to a previous video I've posted on him. There were some bits I found interesting. As it's about 1.5 hours, I found it best value playing in the background while I was doing something else.


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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:16 pm

Tried to get some annual blood tests requested since I'm 50yo and have hemochromatosis. I tried to get homocysteine, hemaglobin A1C, hsCRP but my GP refused. Asked me if I had a specific reason. Even after explaining why, he still refused. He said something about people getting on the internet and requesting stuff. So I think I'll end up with cholesterol, Vit B12 & D, thyroid function and some other general stuff.

He also tested blood pressure which was 100/60. But that was after no breakfast and a morning ride, so sodium was likely low. GP said it was on the low side and asked if I had a history of low BP. Which I found slightly amusing since I used to be 120/80 in the bad old days. At least I achieved my goal of ideal blood pressure or lower. The results seemed to have appeared quite quickly once my ferritin got under 50.

__________________________________________________________

I found parts of this interesting. But like most McDougall webinars, it's fairly long winded.



Popper's is similar (which I've posted before).

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Thu Jan 25, 2018 5:32 pm

Did you offer to pay for the blood tests out of your own pocket?
GPs get concerned about billing Medicare unnecessarily.
At least this is available in the USA where Nanny doesn't interfere.

Oh Gawd.... I've had several conversations with Gustavo when he's been at TNH.... if I can be blunt, he bores my socks off! Nevertheless, because he's a reknowned pianist, he got entre into the inner circle there and at McDougall's.

edit:
just did my BP, 106/73 HR 48 not too bad considering an hour ago I shot off 100 rounds at the pistol club, then into heavy traffic to pick up a stack of fruit and vege for the long weekend. :D

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:54 pm

CKinnard wrote:Did you offer to pay for the blood tests out of your own pocket?

No, but I should have. Thanks for the tip. Next time...

CKinnard wrote:Nevertheless, because he's a reknowned pianist, he got entre into the inner circle there and at McDougall's.

I don't understand why that should matter. He doesn't appear to be a shining weight loss star either.

CKinnard wrote:just did my BP, 106/73 HR 48 not too bad considering an hour ago I shot off 100 rounds at the pistol club, then into heavy traffic to pick up a stack of fruit and vege for the long weekend. :D

Looks like we're doing well then. :D

I hope you were wearing a mask and gloves at the pistol club. One of Greger's vids said shooters have significantly higher lead levels. I can't remember which video.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:07 pm

Nobody wrote:I don't understand why that should matter. He doesn't appear to be a shining weight loss star either.

CKinnard wrote:just did my BP, 106/73 HR 48 not too bad considering an hour ago I shot off 100 rounds at the pistol club, then into heavy traffic to pick up a stack of fruit and vege for the long weekend. :D

Looks like we're doing well then. :D

I hope you were wearing a mask and gloves at the pistol club. One of Greger's vids said shooters have significantly higher lead levels. I can't remember which video.



Re my diet, yeah no nasty cravings at all and am finding it easy to do 14 hours without Calories. losing about 3/4-1 kg a week. I get very busy next week, so will have to micromanage the transition. Still not back at the comfort levels that came within 2 days at TNH last year, but that was a more stimulating environment for me.

Re the pianist, the one thing the US and Oz vary significantly on is status worship.
There's a lot of superficial judgment in the US, which is why I often surprise people with my clinical skill and experience! :wink:
Money, status, and good looks open doors there, more so than here.....but I've noted Oz is going that way.
There was a guest there last time who owns one of the most prestigious mens clothing stores in the US ($10,000+ tailored suits with the best Euro fabrics, etc). He was easy enough to talk to, didn't particularly look like a sophisticated thinker or dresser (he was fasting).....and he shot an underhanded comment about my attire one day....when it was approaching 40C. I was wearing Columbia multi pocketed shorts and a polo shirt. The docs tend to wear long trousers and long sleeved shirts. I was tempted to tell him in Australia many people are still getting wealthy via manual labor, including me!.....but thought he'd either not have the subtlety of mind to get my point, or think I was being a smart ass. (There's still a lot of wisdom in "The client is ALWAYS right!")

Related to that, many of the younger physios in Oz amuse me by wearing business attire. My priority is to wear scrubs tops that I change every 4-5 patients (hygiene), and some form of stretch pant (to permit manual therapy and exercise demos). Function first!!

Re shooting, it's an infrequent thing at an indoor range with a/c and fans blowing down range. I thought the fans were there to clear the smoke, but it's probably just as much the lead! Will bring it up with the owner next time....and you've prompted me to search for studies into lead levels in defense personnel.
It's amazing the range of people that go. I go during business hours, and always run into these old retirees with their own hand guns. :) They keep me very amused with stories from colorful lives.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sat Jan 27, 2018 12:46 pm

Had a brief look for omega-3 index tests in AU and came across the following statement from one test company. It is from the sample test results below.
It should be noted that omega-3 fatty acids from flaxseed oil (alpha-linolenic acid, or ALA) will have little to
no effect on your Omega-3 Index. Therefore, ALA is not an effective substitute for EPA and DHA


I suppose that depends on what you call adequate levels of omega-3. [Edit] 4.4 % is considered adequate according to Greger's video in a later post [/Edit]. I don't subscribe to the "more is better" approach as I believe that most of the problems with the standard western diet are related to excess.

I'm willing to supplement DHA derived from algae for insurance of my brain health, if my omega-3 index is shown to be low. But it will be a waste of money otherwise. The first step is a test. I may not even be considering this test if the science surrounding EPA/DHA with aging brain health - particularly of plant only eaters - was more solid.

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