Plant Based Diet Thread

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:59 pm

Perhaps a little off topic, this morning I had my retiree class, consisting of older ladies and they were talking about ladies who have the issue caused by excessive iron in their diet and they pointed out that most cases are with post menopause as pre menopause they are loosing blood each month with their periods
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:58 pm

mikesbytes wrote:Perhaps a little off topic, this morning I had my retiree class, consisting of older ladies and they were talking about ladies who have the issue caused by excessive iron in their diet and they pointed out that most cases are with post menopause as pre menopause they are loosing blood each month with their periods
excess animal produce in their diet!!! :)
raise "The Blue Zones" next time, or 'Whole Foods Plant Based'!

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:14 pm

Nobody wrote:
CKinnard wrote:Then again, I've met slim people who have trouble maintaining weight on WFPB.
Klaper advises these to eat nuts regularly.
Considering this post on the issue of nuts, I think it's dangerous blanket advice to give. Since in some it should be raising their markers for CVD. It would be better if he advised all he gave that advice to, to get blood tested before and after nuts to see if they were getting an adverse reaction.
I wish it was as simple as The Fruit Doctor's understanding, though Mayo Clinic and the balance of studies think not.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-con ... t-20045192

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20458092
Sabaté J1, Oda K, Ros E.
Nut consumption and blood lipid levels: a pooled analysis of 25 intervention trials.
Arch Intern Med. 2010 May 10;170(9):821-7

Bento APN, Cominetti C, Simoes Filho A et al. Baru Almond Improves Lipid Profile in Mildly Hypercholesterolemic Subjects: A Randomized, Controlled, Crossover Study. Nutr Metab Cardovasc Dis 2014;24:1330-1336.

Choudhary K, Clark J, Griffiths HR. An Almond-Enriched Diet Increases Alpha Tocopherol and Improves Vascular Function, But Does Not Affect Oxidative Stress Markers or Lipid Levels. Free Radic Res 2014;48:599-606.

Griel AE, Kris-Etherton PM. Tree Nuts and Lipid Profile: A Review of Clinical Studies. Brit J Nutr 2006;96:S68-S78.

Kris-Etherton PM, Karmally W, Ramakrishnan R. Almonds Lower LDL Cholesterol. J Am Diet Assoc 2009;109:1521-1522.

Phung OJ, Makanji SS, White W, et al. Almonds Have a Neutral Effect on Serum Lipid Profiles: A Meta-Analysis of Randomized Trials. J Am Diet Assoc 2009;109:865-873

_________________________

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3257681/
Ross, Emilio
Health Benefits of Nut Consumption
Nutrients. 2010 Jul; 2(7): 652–682.

"Abstract

Nuts (tree nuts and peanuts) are nutrient dense foods with complex matrices rich in unsaturated fatty and other bioactive compounds: high-quality vegetable protein, fiber, minerals, tocopherols, phytosterols, and phenolic compounds. By virtue of their unique composition, nuts are likely to beneficially impact health outcomes. Epidemiologic studies have associated nut consumption with a reduced incidence of coronary heart disease and gallstones in both genders and diabetes in women. Limited evidence also suggests beneficial effects on hypertension, cancer, and inflammation. Interventional studies consistently show that nut intake has a cholesterol-lowering effect, even in the context of healthy diets, and there is emerging evidence of beneficial effects on oxidative stress, inflammation, and vascular reactivity. Blood pressure, visceral adiposity and the metabolic syndrome also appear to be positively influenced by nut consumption. Thus it is clear that nuts have a beneficial impact on many cardiovascular risk factors. Contrary to expectations, epidemiologic studies and clinical trials suggest that regular nut consumption is unlikely to contribute to obesity and may even help in weight loss. Safety concerns are limited to the infrequent occurrence of nut allergy in children. In conclusion, nuts are nutrient rich foods with wide-ranging cardiovascular and metabolic benefits, which can be readily incorporated into healthy diets."

Image


_____________


Fruit Doc should have controlled her 2 blood sample experiment by monitoring tightly her Calorie intake, weight, and intake of multiple other foods that influence cholesterol absorption in the gut i.e. fiber.

Also, it would have been more meaningful for her to get at least 3 blood tests as a baseline, to indicate what would be a significant change from one particular diet's baseline. And controlled for the average 19% variation of cholesterol over the menstrual cycle.

https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-re ... rual-cycle
https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/95/9/E80/2835175

Nevertheless, nuts have a lot of Calories, and as I said, if one struggles to keep weight down, then nuts are probably one of the first plant foods to eliminate.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sun Dec 16, 2018 7:45 pm

The Conversation has an article blaming vegan diets for malnutrition in wealthy countries. Plant Based News' response here.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Mon Dec 17, 2018 10:52 am

Nobody wrote:The Conversation has an article blaming vegan diets for malnutrition in wealthy countries. Plant Based News' response here.
Some pertinent points brought up in the article, but the tone is inexcusably biased, and counters the bulk of scientific findings.
It's clickbait, leveraging the popularity of veganism, and the naivety of those attracted to it.

The conversation has had some good articles in the past, but more and more it is 9 parts social engineering and 1 part genuine unbiased informative insight.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:31 pm

Found this on the PCRM news feed.

We need to talk about meat - The Lancet

It concludes with:
So what is a healthy amount of red or processed meat? It's looking increasingly like the answer, for both the planet and the individual, is very little. Saying this is one thing. Getting the world to a place where we have the ability to balance the desire to eat whatever we want with our need to preserve the ecosystem we rely on to sustain ourselves is quite another. The conversation has to start soon.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:54 am

Nobody wrote:Found this on the PCRM news feed.

We need to talk about meat - The Lancet

It concludes with:
So what is a healthy amount of red or processed meat? It's looking increasingly like the answer, for both the planet and the individual, is very little. Saying this is one thing. Getting the world to a place where we have the ability to balance the desire to eat whatever we want with our need to preserve the ecosystem we rely on to sustain ourselves is quite another. The conversation has to start soon.
Not playing whiny contrarian, but I note in the original paper, it says
"However in several large studies from Taiwan a vegan diet was not associated with favourable cardio-metabolic risk factors compared to the control diets."

This highlights that it is important to know what is being compared. As we know 'vegan' is often a lifestyle choice for ideological or religious reasons, and it isn't implicit a vegan diet is balanced, planned, and healthy.
Further, if the omnivore diets being compared to vegan are on average lower in animal produce, then that's going to effect outcomes.

I've watched a few of this guy's videos of why vegans kicked the diet.
https://www.youtube.com/user/sv3rige/videos
It's insightful into how naive people are who adopt the diet, and never consider seeing a health professional for guidance...preferring instead the advice of Freelee and DurianRider.
It also highlights that many young people try a vegan diet because they have health issues, including psychological....and this explain why some vegans have issues planning and adhering to a healthy balanced vegan diet.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Tue Jan 01, 2019 12:17 pm

CKinnard wrote:I've watched a few of this guy's videos of why vegans kicked the diet.
https://www.youtube.com/user/sv3rige/videos
It's insightful into how naive people are who adopt the diet, and never consider seeing a health professional for guidance...preferring instead the advice of Freelee and DurianRider.
For young people, seeking a health professional's advice may be about the cost when they think the information is freely available online. It might be free, but it's going to take a considerable amount of sifting/wading time to get an accurate overall picture. Even in these threads. I've personally started to get more of the whole picture over the last year.
CKinnard wrote:It also highlights that many young people try a vegan diet because they have health issues, including psychological....and this explain why some vegans have issues planning and adhering to a healthy balanced vegan diet.
Agree. Getting it right isn't as intuitive as some would have us believe. There is a healthy overall structure that needs to be adhered to and then an individual often needs to tune the diet for themselves to some extent. I believe that psychological issues aren't necessarily going to improve with a vegan diet that is very low in fat and may get worse over the long term. I've recently had depression like symptoms when my n-6 fat got below 2% of calories, or about 6g/d. This highlights the importance of following the WHO guidelines of their 2% n-6 minimum.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:00 pm

While on holiday at Taree NSW I met 2 vegan power lifters on holiday from WA, one a nutritionist wasn't currently competing but the other one was and had to find a gym to do a 3 hour session (no holiday from preparing for a comp). Anyway it highlighted a benefit in the vegan diet in that because there is few places that cater for vegan's, it forces them to prepare their own food saving them from the lower standards of eating out compared with eating at home.
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:09 am

The achilles heel of the low carb and carnivore diets is that they have absolutely no place in geriatrics.
And to get an idea of what is a health supporting diet, it helps to apply the same approach as you would to any engineering, construction, or biological system. And that approach is to compare diets for extreme ends of the system.

So for diets, that means which diet has better outcomes for
- weaned infants
- geriatrics especially with multiple morbidities
- chronic disease states
- acute disease states

True North recently had this geriatric case report published.

https://www.truenorthhealthfoundation.o ... narian.pdf

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:18 pm

mikesbytes wrote:While on holiday at Taree NSW I met 2 vegan power lifters on holiday from WA, one a nutritionist wasn't currently competing but the other one was and had to find a gym to do a 3 hour session (no holiday from preparing for a comp). Anyway it highlighted a benefit in the vegan diet in that because there is few places that cater for vegan's, it forces them to prepare their own food saving them from the lower standards of eating out compared with eating at home.
True. It's interesting what a positive spin they put on it. I would call it both a benefit and problem. As the regular readers would know, I pre-cook and take with me all the food I think I'll need for that day if I'm working, visiting, or just out of the house all day.
Being vegan and a nutritionist should go together as those who are aware of the literature, should know what action they need to take to be as healthy as possible. Which brings me to a recent "flashback" video from nutritionfacts.org on the healthiest foods.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:45 pm

CKinnard wrote:]True North recently had this geriatric case report published.

https://www.truenorthhealthfoundation.o ... narian.pdf
Thanks for posting. Interesting case report in that they turned everything around, but I'd guess most cases wouldn't work out as well at that age. He was still on a couple of medications at the end and it looks like he was planning to continue taking aspirin.
A quick look through the case report in "Learning Points" found "An exclusively plant, whole-food, SOS--free diet" . You and I understand what SOS free is (sugar, oil and salt free), but it would be nice if they elaborated so many of the general medical audience could clearly understand what they meant. They elaborated in the treatment section, but many may not read that far.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:15 pm

Nobody wrote:
CKinnard wrote:]True North recently had this geriatric case report published.

https://www.truenorthhealthfoundation.o ... narian.pdf
Thanks for posting. Interesting case report in that they turned everything around, but I'd guess most cases wouldn't work out as well at that age. He was still on a couple of medications at the end and it looks like he was planning to continue taking aspirin.
A quick look through the case report in "Learning Points" found "An exclusively plant, whole-food, SOS--free diet" . You and I understand what SOS free is (sugar, oil and salt free), but it would be nice if they elaborated so many of the general medical audience could clearly understand what they meant. They elaborated in the treatment section, but many may not read that far.
At his age after decades of poor lifestyle choices, he is lucky to be able to come as many meds as he did.
His body will be very fragile.
The best diet will be that which takes the most stress off his failing systems.
As I alluded earlier, a fragile state of health is a more sensitive testing ground for comparing diets.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:01 pm

I thought this was worth posting as a warning example of why one shouldn't ignore symptoms of food intolerance and/or gut issues.



I had some food intolerance issues develop after some years. Mine were seasonal so I figured out that it was likely a lack of vitamin D. Started taking vitamin D daily and my symptoms slowly decreased.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:45 pm

Nuts and Heart Disease - Dr. Esselstyn (Part 4 of Nuts)

The three previous videos are linked in the comments of the above video.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:34 pm

Nobody wrote:I thought this was worth posting as a warning example of why one shouldn't ignore symptoms of food intolerance and/or gut issues.

I had some food intolerance issues develop after some years. Mine were seasonal so I figured out that it was likely a lack of vitamin D. Started taking vitamin D daily and my symptoms slowly decreased.
Thanks for this. Goji Man just keeps getting better and better.
Excellent quality commentary and insight.
The quality content of Youtubers like he, Mic the Vegan, and Popper, will hopefully extinguish the DurianRiders and Freelees of the world.
and broadcast sensible interpretation of the science.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:17 pm

More on, are nuts & seeds better or worse for one's long term health? Both sides appear to have compelling arguments. The opposing view is in videos listed just 2 posts up. "Mr & Mrs Vegan" have an interesting reply in the comments of the video below.


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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:57 pm

Nobody wrote:More on, are nuts & seeds better or worse for one's long term health? Both sides appear to have compelling arguments. The opposing view is in videos listed just 2 posts up. "Mr & Mrs Vegan" have an interesting reply in the comments of the video below.
Regarding the comments about fasting, it is a severe thing to put the body through.
It is not something to be done lightly.
This is why I think anyone intending a fast for its therapeutic benefits must be screened by doctors experienced with fasting.
The majority of people with serious chronic health issues would not be appropriate for an extended water fast (>5-7 days).
And those attempting 21 or more days might test healthy enough at the start, but develop issues during the fast...hence the need for daily monitoring of critical markers by an experienced team of health pros.

So why even subject oneself to an extended fast?
If one has tried every other form of health care without results, then a fast can break down connective tissue (adhesions, scars, tendinopathies, calcific plaques, etc) and it suppresses the immune system long enough to rest tissue or organs that have been chronically inflamed which creates a lot of scar itself.
I've met many people who have had indisputable and permanent relief from intractable pain via an extended fast, or multiple, and the explanation lies with the catabolism of extraneous tissue and metabolites held within that tissue (calcium hydroxyapatite).

At 3:15, Joel Fuhrman said he had a "health professional" who recommended a fast to help reduce painful calcifications in his heel after a foot fracture. IMHO, that was reasonable advice, however, by all accounts the fast was misguided and excessively long (Joel implied 1 year, but that needs clarification as he could not have possibly done an unbroken water fast that long). One can more safely break down problem tissue with multiple shorter fasts.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:06 pm

In the same video at 5:35, Blue Zones are raised.
I have to disagree with the logic Joel uses to support that a vegan diet is better than Blue Zones.
He says the science backs the vegan diet.
I would contend that there has been no community that has adhered to a balanced and optimal vegan diet for multiple generations.
So we don't know what effects vegan diets have on genetic expression or pregnancy, generation after generation....whereas we do for Blue Zones.

We cannot be certain soils around the world have adequate nutrients or bacteria.
Soils in Finland will be significantly different to Somalia.

I say this just to highlight that we should be careful not to read things into the science that don't exist.
It could very well turn out that optimally planned vegan diet over multiple generations has advantages that blows all alternatives away....but that is not in the science currently.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:22 pm

where I absolutely agree with Joel is that nuts and seeds are totally reasonable in the diet, in small to moderate amounts.

I say this because I think we have to respect how homo sapien sapiens have lived over millennia and what they ate...because this will have helped select human metabolic pathways.

And from my studies, there's ample evidence homo SS has eaten nuts and seeds in communities across the world.

But it must be remembered our ancestors weren't obese.
The question of fats and seeds for those who have serious chronic disease is a separate issue.

I am sure if Joel was asked the nut and seed question with the right nuance, he'd give a very reasonable answer.

The point is many people need to lose weight, and that takes precedence over whether one includes nuts and seeds.
Once one has lost weight, then there's no reason why nuts and seeds cannot be reintroduced.
It must also be considered that when losing weight and experincing catabolism, many nutrients including DHA are being released from tissue, and may very well meet the body's needs in the absence of dietary omega 3s.

Appropriate amounts of dietary fat from nuts and seeds is not going to be deposited in arterial plaques if one is on a Calorie deficit, or maintaining healthy bodyfat %.

So much confusion about diet is caused by the disconnect between what is appropriate to eat when and when not at a healthy bodyweight....and when and when not in good health....and when young vs old, or active vs unnaturally sedentary.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:03 pm

CKinnard wrote:I say this just to highlight that we should be careful not to read things into the science that don't exist.
It could very well turn out that optimally planned vegan diet over multiple generations has advantages that blows all alternatives away....but that is not in the science currently.
Good point.
That science is not going to exist in my lifetime. So I'm left with piecing together a potential ideal diet from the science on individual foods, rather than a whole. IMO Fuhrman is extrapolating. Greger is doing similar. We are all trying to fill the gaps. Popper did a video recently on eating at night, where she reasoned similar to Lisle's, "people major in minor things". I'd like to know the answer for nuts, but it looks like a definitive answer is going to allude me. All I know for sure is that nuts & seeds don't raise my cholesterol with what I've been eating.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:03 am

Nobody wrote: she reasoned similar to Lisle's, "people major in minor things".
Yes, there's a lot of truth in that.
And I have an example of a patient today....a highly experienced Occupational Therapist, who could reasonably expected to have a stronger interest in all aspects of her health. She spends most of her time dealing with stroke victims.

When we started talking diet, she sounded like she was informed by the Women's Weekly, and that she was low on this and that, and needed supplements. blah blah.

She also wants to enjoy her food, and can't imagine enjoying salad and vege.
I have to say this work is like cult deprogramming.
It's hard to imagine that people can be so owned by cravings for what any reasonably minded person would know is not healthy food.

Anyway, to break it down for her, I said how about you focus on just getting the portions right, so we can get your Calorie intake down.
And we'll get more specific with the elements of the diet once your appetite eases, hopefully in 3 weeks.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:29 pm

CKinnard wrote:<snip>
Anyway, to break it down for her, I said how about you focus on just getting the portions right, so we can get your Calorie intake down.
And we'll get more specific with the elements of the diet once your appetite eases, hopefully in 3 weeks.
That's excellent CK. Step 1 -...., Step 2 -...., Step 3 -.... etc
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:23 pm

mikesbytes wrote:
CKinnard wrote:<snip>
Anyway, to break it down for her, I said how about you focus on just getting the portions right, so we can get your Calorie intake down.
And we'll get more specific with the elements of the diet once your appetite eases, hopefully in 3 weeks.
That's excellent CK. Step 1 -...., Step 2 -...., Step 3 -.... etc
MIke, I guess some people have never experienced anything but cravings....and have no concept of what it is to be free of them.

And for those whose lives are pretty challenging, I suppose the satiation of hunger with tim tams or whatever is one of the only pleasures they can get without effort. Nevertheless, it is still cult-ish! :)

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:28 pm

CKinnard wrote:...She spends most of her time dealing with stroke victims.
You would think that her exposure would be a wake up call. Nothing like confronting the results daily to make one think about avoiding it. But if she doesn't equate that directly with diet...
CKinnard wrote:When we started talking diet, she sounded like she was informed by the Women's Weekly,...
:lol:
She probably is.
CKinnard wrote:...and that she was low on this and that, and needed supplements. blah blah.
Interesting that they know they may have problems but don't think of the option of changing their diet to compensate.
CKinnard wrote:She also wants to enjoy her food, and can't imagine enjoying salad and vege.
I have to say this work is like cult deprogramming.
Her previous comments sounded more like "the illusion of knowledge", but now it sounds like the addictions talking. The combination of the two make sure almost everyone is owned by the food industries. The food industries have done their marketing job well. It's hard to deprogram addicted people who already think they have most of the answers. I haven't managed to deprogram anyone yet. The best I can say is I've scattered some elements of truth among the ubiquitous deception.

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