Plant Based Diet Thread

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Nobody
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Mon Aug 07, 2017 4:34 pm

march83 wrote:My serum zinc levels were OK, but I've done some tracking in chronometer and I'm typically only getting 10-15mg of dietary zinc which seem OK by the RDIs, but from what I understand my absorption may be compromised by the phytates (lots of beans) and tannins (lots of tea and coffee) I'm eating. Additionally, my requirements may be amplified due to pretty significant sweat losses.

10 - 15mg is barely covering the basic 12mg required for a veg eater from the sources I've read. Having said that, your body can adjust to a degree. As said, I'm bringing in about 12mg extra a day which bring the zinc level up to match my iron intake. I typically find zinc is about half to two thirds the level of iron in most whole foods. Andrew Perlot did some videos on zinc. One of them suggested that tested serum zinc levels aren't a good reflection of the status of zinc in the cells.

march83 wrote:So, taking the simplest approach, I'm currently supplementing zinc with meals and I'll see what happens at the next round of blood tests.

Safe approach since one can get too much zinc. I take mine before a meal to increase absorption so far.

march83 wrote:
Nobody wrote:My previous specialist said diet didn't make any difference. Well so far I've proven it does in my case. :D


What an incredible statement from your specialist...

Surprising statement since she also said she was a vegetarian. I would have thought she would have come across someone with a similar diet before. But maybe not. Maybe they don't get the symptoms and I did because I was a late convert.

According to my spreadsheet, my diet's average iron density is only 0.6mg/100g. Peas are the only food I eat lately with more than 1mg/100g of iron. Adding some zinc for competition and you can see why I'm winning the iron absorption game.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:57 pm


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CKinnard
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:26 pm

I worked and dined with Anthony most days. He splits his time between Kaiser, McDougall, and TNH. He's a very nice guy though I found him a little unintuitive on rounds. I suppose med (and law) school knocks that out of people. i.e. I firmly believe most people who want to lose weight need portion guidance. Like Goldhamer, Anthony just thinks its a matter of filling your plate with PBWF, and he didn't have a lot to offer when patients said I've been doing that, and I am not losing weight! This just blankly denies that many chronically overweight people have dysregulated appetite mechanisms.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:35 am

CKinnard wrote:I firmly believe most people who want to lose weight need portion guidance. Like Goldhamer, Anthony just thinks its a matter of filling your plate with PBWF, and he didn't have a lot to offer when patients said I've been doing that, and I am not losing weight! This just blankly denies that many chronically overweight people have dysregulated appetite mechanisms.

The older and more experienced I get, the more I agree. For ad-lib, PFPB doesn't keep my weight under control to the extent I want it to. I've gained over 4 kg since March. Given enough time, the body adjusts. It worked for me initially, but years later I can consume large quantities of low density foods and still gain weight. For those who don't know my diet, it's a relatively simple one that avoids all processed foods, bread, sugars, salt, oils, spices and less than 35g of fat per day.

What I find helps is reducing protein to about 1g/kg of body weight and reducing fat to about 20g/day. For me that's about a macro ratio of C84:F6:P10 (currently about C79:F10:P11). In addition to that, with the usual dieting tricks like intermittent feeding/fasting (reduced daily feeding time window) I can get to what is considered by many observers to be an unhealthily low body weight. I'd personally rather do that than portion control. Like most people, having to stop eating before satiation Isn't something I enjoy. But for those that can tolerate it, it works well. A guy at my work does it relatively effectively considering he's still on a standard diet. His total cholesterol is still 5.5 though.

A guy at work implied that eating too many bananas was unhealthy and asked me what my cholesterol was. His was 4.4 and I think he genuinely thought my cholesterol would be higher. But he was surprised when I explained it used to be 6.5 and now it's 3.7. Just to drive home the point, I explained to him that hsCRP is a primary low level inflammation marker and told him mine was extremely low at 0.5. This is a guy with 3 stents after a heart attack 10 years ago. So the healthy diet message isn't getting to the majority of people yet. I could offer him my copy of Esselstyn's book, but he already indicated that he (like almost everyone) isn't open to dietary change.

McDougall tells people that still aren't losing weight on his diet to walk around the block daily. It worked for one guy that lost 120 lbs with the advice, but I find exercise doesn't make a lot of difference to me. My appetite follows the amount of exercise.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby march83 » Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:07 am

CKinnard wrote:I firmly believe most people who want to lose weight need portion guidance. Like Goldhamer, Anthony just thinks its a matter of filling your plate with PBWF, and he didn't have a lot to offer when patients said I've been doing that, and I am not losing weight! This just blankly denies that many chronically overweight people have dysregulated appetite mechanisms.


Yep, totally. Just like Nobody, I don't just automatically lose weight or keep it off just because I eat WFPB. I still need to focus on portion size which means being OK with finishing my meals and not being full and/or employing dirty diet tricks to keep my calories under control. I also need to make a point to avoid a lot of foods which fall under the WFPB banner like seeds, nuts, grains, some fruits (dried and fresh) because there's simply no quantity of them that I can eat that makes me full or satisfied without eating incredible numbers of calories. The easiest option is to just not start eating them in the first place.

So i figure it's down to growing up in an environment where eating large meals was lauded for some reason, and stress (cortisol). I can and do actively address the latter (meditate, sleep, avoid skipping too many meals, supp ashwaganda, control caffeine) and I'm conscious of the former so just some things to work on.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Fri Aug 11, 2017 3:10 pm

Following up on why some don't lose weight eating to satiation.

1. How can one argue satiation is simultaneously signaled on a hypocaloric and eucaloric diet???
If one wants to debate that satiation will be reached earlier on a PBWF diet WHEN overweight, and right on time when ideal weight, hmmmm, don't know if I can buy into that per se. Maybe when one is young and comparatively healthy. I do know that's how McDougall, TNH, Esselstyn, et al tend to package their brands to all ages. I think they are just doing the best they knew how with the knowledge they had during their hay days. But I've seen enough people fail on that advice. I think we have to accept satiation signaling can get dysregulated with chronic stress and/or age, just like a lot of other systems.

2. I know quite well now at least 20 people who are repeat visitors to TNH. They have no trouble eating PBWF SOS at TNH, but when they go home, they have trouble sticking to it. I'd put myself in that category too. I think we have to accept life stressors (mental, emotional, physical) do dysregulate appetite more than we think. One of the most startling anecdotes I can relate is that before I went to TNH this year, I would get very strong cravings for a wine in the evenings. That built until I was having 3-4 glasses a night before going away. However, by my 2nd night at TNH, I wasn't even thinking about alcohol. I think my wine fix was due to me living alone, and being somewhat bored or craving a headspace shift. At TNH, I had lots of stimulating company to spend evenings with.

3. I think the stressor phenomenon is also a factor in PBWF people preferentially loading their plates with starches. I've seen it time and again that those struggling with weight control seem to downplay salad and steam vege, and upregulate starch intake. Hence, why I think portion control of each main food group is often needed.

4. Finally, I've trawled the literature looking for explanations on why people who overfeed to the same extent don't put on weight at the same rate. Variances in brown adipose tissue, sympathetic nerve and core body temp response to overfeeding, are the major factors explaining variable weight gain (when more apparent variables are controlled). These factors do tend to get dampened down with age such that there's less variance between overfeeders from middle age onwards.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:09 pm

CKinnard wrote:
Nobody wrote:Below is an update on my blood iron loading problem.

Well it took a while, but it appears I have achieved my goal of no longer needing venesections (bleedings). To be honest, I didn't know that someone with haemochromatosis could get to the level of ferritin I'm at of 31 ug/L (range: 30 - 300). The one thing I changed and got such a big drop in ferritin - from of 91 to 34 in 6 months - was by supplementing about 12mg of zinc daily before eating, since zinc competes with the absorption of iron. Something worth trying if you have the same problem.


Congratulations on that Nobody.
Personally and professionally, I think that is absolutely astounding.
You have motivated me to research haemochroma.... to see what conservative therapies are available.
If what you have done is unusual, I'll get your story to the TNH docs.
Your meticulous approach to data tracking will underscore the results, and maybe your GP could be enticed to write up a case study report.

It would be interesting to do a gene tracking study of haemo sufferers, and relate that back to their traditional diet.


Sorry, I missed this post and just found it in regard to updating the information on the post below.
Thanks. :)

viewtopic.php?f=49&t=89413&start=725#p1413469
In regard to the post above, there is another factor of change I did unintentionally which also should have changed my iron absorption. When mandarins came into season this year and therefore got cheap, I decided to eat a lot of them. Like 1 to 2.2 kg gross per day. A kg gross works out to be about 800g net. According to my spreadsheet, even eating 800g/day makes my total calcium intake for the day close to 700 mg. Up from the 400 to 500 mg previously. As you likely know calcium also competes with iron for absorption and veg based calcium is well absorbed. So it looks like it may not be just the added zinc since some vegetarians have been known to get iron-deficiency anemia with their high dairy intake diets. Anyway, I'm going to continue with the dietary exercise until I get close to or below the deficiency point - which is < 12ug/L according to the science - to prove the point. I plan to get another iron studies blood test in about a month.

I'm now tracking both my iron:zinc and iron:calcium ratios:
iron:zinc = 0.86 (previously 1.7)
iron:calcium = 0.03 (previously 0.06)

CKinnard wrote:I don't know if I mentioned it to you yet, but while at TNH (got back to Oz last Friday), I did a lot of massage and mobilization of the viscera as an intervention for nausea and vomiting, reflux, distended gut, impacted intestines....(I had experimented with this in Oz years ago on spinal injuries patients with hypomotility issues, and great results. At TNH, I also had excellent results, and patients talked it up to the docs. It was really that work that led to the visa offer.

No, I haven't heard of it before. Congratulations. I hope you manage to continue your success with it. That should help many. Which brings me to the question, have you decided to permanently go back to TNH?

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:55 pm

Nobody wrote:Which brings me to the question, have you decided to permanently go back to TNH?


PM sent

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby march83 » Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:45 pm

Nobody wrote:I'm bringing in about 12mg extra a day


Out of interest, have you noticed any other changes as a result of taking zinc? My libido has skyrocketed, and being the inquisitive type I looked into it and found this: http://www.ergo-log.com/zinctest.html <- there are more sources out there and lots of anecdotal evidence to be found if you google "zinc megadose".

Personally, I'm taking in nowhere near the amount discussed in the study, but interesting that it can have such a significant impact on my body.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Wed Aug 16, 2017 9:54 pm

march83 wrote:
Nobody wrote:I'm bringing in about 12mg extra a day


Out of interest, have you noticed any other changes as a result of taking zinc? My libido has skyrocketed, and being the inquisitive type I looked into it and found this: http://www.ergo-log.com/zinctest.html <- there are more sources out there and lots of anecdotal evidence to be found if you google "zinc megadose".

Personally, I'm taking in nowhere near the amount discussed in the study, but interesting that it can have such a significant impact on my body.

According to the link below, 40mg/d is considered the upper total safe limit if supplementing. Symptoms of too much are "...suppression of immune response, decrease in high density lipoprotein (HDL) cholesterol and reduced copper status." I'm below average weight at about 66kg and my current total intake is 29mg. So for my weight I'm getting closer to the upper limit.
https://www.nrv.gov.au/nutrients/zinc

So to answer you question, I've barely noticed any increase in libido. However a low libido is welcome at my age and state of marital life. Both cycling and my diet lower my libido, which I'm content with. Also two of the many symptoms of haemochromatosis are loss of libido and sexual function. So I'm hardly a good candidate to give any kind of objective opinion on the subject.

As for any other changes, I haven't noticed any so far. I'm mainly taking it to help block iron intake.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Fri Aug 18, 2017 1:26 pm

One reason why this thread wasn't called the "Vegan Diet Thread" below. The other reason is to attempt to separate it from the animal rights issues. While I'm agnostic on animal rights, I find the hostility around the subject is a distraction from the main message here of improved health through improved diet.



More chance of depression from a poor lifestyle? It should be obvious to those that have already made the change away from a poor lifestyle.


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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Fri Aug 18, 2017 2:58 pm

Totally agree with the vids above.
I've known many vegans, as in those who take a philosophical stance on animal rights.
On the whole, I find them angry and elitist, and short on sound nutritional knowledge and practice.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Fri Aug 18, 2017 3:22 pm

I thought you wanted this thread to be about advice on eating a plant based diet and the diet thread to be where we debated
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Fri Aug 18, 2017 9:49 pm

mikesbytes wrote:I thought you wanted this thread to be about advice on eating a plant based diet and the diet thread to be where we debated


Unfortunately, much information about PBWF diet comes from vegans, who haven't necessarily schooled themselves in nutrition.
Further, studies of vegans can adversely effect public opinion about PBWF diets due to most thinking the two diets are the same.

I think it is wise to remember a vegan is someone who is philosophically against exploitation of and cruelty to animals, and there is no 'vegan' diet. Even if I 100% refrained from animal produce, I would not identify as a vegan. Why? because I don't agree with the aggressive use of violence and intimidation by vegan action groups.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Sat Aug 19, 2017 9:07 am

CKinnard wrote:
mikesbytes wrote:I thought you wanted this thread to be about advice on eating a plant based diet and the diet thread to be where we debated


Unfortunately, much information about PBWF diet comes from vegans, who haven't necessarily schooled themselves in nutrition.
Further, studies of vegans can adversely effect public opinion about PBWF diets due to most thinking the two diets are the same.

I think it is wise to remember a vegan is someone who is philosophically against exploitation of and cruelty to animals, and there is no 'vegan' diet. Even if I 100% refrained from animal produce, I would not identify as a vegan. Why? because I don't agree with the aggressive use of violence and intimidation by vegan action groups.
Yes unfortunately some people treat their cause almost as a religion and then go about trying to beat people into submission rather than winning them over.

I guess that if one doesn't want to use the 'V' word, then they could say they don't eat animal products and when asked why, which would happen all the time, they can say "I feel much more healthy as a result" or the like
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Top_Bhoy » Sat Aug 19, 2017 12:59 pm

I don't eat much in the way of red meat these days unless there is little else on the menu but I do have an over-reliance on chicken which I'd like to try and change. Is there a good recipe book or website which can be recommended to help increase my plant content?

I understand there is a plethora of books and sites out there but when I browse through them, many seem complicated eg time-consuming. I'm looking for a reference source which, living in a single person household, will provide me with main meals that I can prepare reasonably quickly. I also currently eat a portion or two of green veg daily but increasing this content, whilst likely to be nutritionally good, I suspect will be bland. Whilst I can 'cook', I don't have the experience or imagination to experiment or cook without instruction.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Sat Aug 19, 2017 6:11 pm

I make a nachos recipe that could be easily converted from vegetarian to vegan. More importantly it exhibits how a popular mainstream recipe can be altered to improve its nutritional content, in this case I have added a sizeable assortment to the bean mix and its hardly noticeable incorporated into the spice mix. The quantity of corn chips has been drastically reduced by having a simple line on each side (square plate) rather than having the plate covered in them and the mixture on top. I'm guessing that is the sort of thing you are looking for, not too hard to make, tasty and loaded with the right stuff
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sun Aug 20, 2017 4:55 pm

I've got heaps of recipes that could help you out.
If I read you right, you are transitioning to more plant based and want minimum work.
I suggest you triple the portions below, and make a stack of bean burgers, and throw them in the freezer, and take out as required. Serve with mashed or baked potato and steamed vege or salad. Squeeze mustard, or tomato or sweet chili sauce on if too bland.

Get back to me after you've tried this recipe, and I'll drip feed you more.

___________________________________________________________________________________________

Jeff Novick Bean Burgers

Homemade vegan burgers using just four ingredients. No meat, no fat, no cholesterol, no dairy, no eggs, no weird science project chemicals – just whole foods – and they happen to be plant-based too. Recipe by Jeff Novick.

Image


Ingredients
2x ~400 gram cans Kidney Beans
1 cup of raw Rolled Oats
1 cup of cooked Brown Rice
¼ Cup of Tomato Sauce (or for more flavor, replace with tomato paste to taste)
½ tsp Garlic Powder
½ tsp Onion Powder (you can replace garlic and onion powders with the raw ingredients or bottled product)
½ tsp mix of herbs that appeals i.e. mixed Italian

Instructions
- Rinse and drain the beans, stick them in larger saucepan, and mash well with potato masher.
- Add the oatmeal, rice, sauce, and spices....and mix with your hands.
- form and shape into patties.
- Place the patties in the fridge and forget about them for at least 20 minutes. This allows them to set up and get firm.

use some straight away by grilling or frying. separate the rest with glad wrap or paper and freeze.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sun Aug 20, 2017 5:16 pm

Here's something else that should be safe as houses.
Hanna is high carb hanna on utube.
She's a pretty sensible girl imho, whose life transition story is remarkable and authentic as f...!
https://www.youtube.com/user/Rawkaholics

I've been doing dahls and vego chillis for 30+ years and this one is pretty simple.
If you don't have a pressure cooker, just cook it for 30-45 minutes with lid adjar so steam can escape as simmering. stir every 5-10 minutes to ensure not sticking to bottom.

Cooking using legumes is not complicated. There's only a few variations on a theme.
- you end up with a stew like consistency, or burger patties, or a soup. The only diff is qty of water and thickeners like grains.
- honestly, you can replace any bean with another. It isn't going to spoil the dish.
- and there are only so many 'base' flavors you can create. The most popular are Mediterranean, Mexican, Indian subcontinent.

https://www.rawtillwhenever.com/spicy-r ... stant-pot/

Image

And keep in mind there's a scientifically validated longevity advantage to eating more legumes, and less animal flesh.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Top_Bhoy » Sun Aug 20, 2017 6:32 pm

CKinnard wrote:I've got heaps of recipes that could help you out.
If I read you right, you are transitioning to more plant based and want minimum work.
I suggest you triple the portions below, and make a stack of bean burgers, and throw them in the freezer, and take out as required. Serve with mashed or baked potato and steamed vege or salad. Squeeze mustard, or tomato or sweet chili sauce on if too bland.

Get back to me after you've tried this recipe, and I'll drip feed you more.

___________________________________________________________________________________________


Yes, thanks. You read right.

Whilst I rarely eat red meat, the over-reliance on chicken is something I would like to reduce and get a better balance into my diet as I get older. Currently, tossing some chicken with some bean type and various spices into a slow cooker or a stir fry gives me easy to prep meals which can be frozen. Flavour beats presentation and once defrosted, I take them to work because unless absolutely necessary, I prefer not eat to eat my main meal of the day in the evening. I'd like to do the same for non-meat based meals.

Thanks for the burger recipe,t hey look awesome. Once I have bought the food materials, I'll have a go at making them during the week.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Sun Aug 20, 2017 7:21 pm

Looks real yummy CK.

Top_Bhoy I've made the Nachos tonight. I've put it on the diet thread as its vegetarian

http://bicycles.net.au/forums/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=83496&p=1415414#p1415414
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Tue Aug 22, 2017 9:22 am


https://nutritionfacts.org/video/do-the-pros-of-brown-rice-outweigh-the-cons-of-arsenic/


https://nutritionfacts.org/video/coconut-oil-and-the-boost-in-hdl-good-cholesterol/

What I got from the video above is that there is evidence that higher HDL is not protective. I've heard of this previously as well.



https://nutritionfacts.org/video/what-about-coconuts-coconut-milk-and-coconut-oil-mcts/

It was pretty obvious that coconut oil was going to be bad for atherosclerosis. But I found it interesting from an island that ate mainly coconuts, that even whole coconuts appear to be bad for cholesterol levels.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Tue Aug 22, 2017 12:55 pm

re arsenic and rice, I would like to see arsenic content in Australian rice. If it is a concern, I'd look at organically certified if such exists. I don't eat a lot of rice anyway so can afford to pay a premium for black and red rice. I might have had 2-3 cups of cooked rice a month on average over the last year.
Since getting back though I have been having more Asian soups with rice, broad bean, or wheat noodles.

as for coconut, I don't buy it. just doesn't come on the radar when I am at the f&v shop.
I used to love Thai curries with coconut cream or milk, but don't enjoy the fattiness as much these days.
I think as people get older their gall bladder and liver appreciate less fat.

I'd like to see how the low carb high fat diet is tolerated by people over 60 years old.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby big booty » Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:28 pm

I think sugar/glucose/fructose in the diet is going to stress your liver more than fat. Unless you are having obscene amounts of fat? I love my cheese, although Im not quite in the 60 age bracket yet. Cheese is my dessert after dinner. I thought it was easy to see if you are having too much fat. Do your stools float or sink? Or is that too simplistic a measurement?

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Tue Aug 22, 2017 2:24 pm

big booty wrote:I think sugar/glucose/fructose in the diet is going to stress your liver more than fat. Unless you are having obscene amounts of fat?


hmmm.....the jury is still out on that I think.

https://www.jci.org/articles/view/89444
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3633701/

The common finding is that one should avoid being overweight.

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