Plant Based Diet Thread

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warthog1
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby warthog1 » Sat Sep 02, 2017 10:08 pm

Nobody wrote:I agree that both types of diabetes require a genetic susceptibility to surface. But IMO too many people use their genes/condition as an excuse so they can continue their lifestyle unchanged when they could have gained some level of benefit from changing it. That applies to both types of diabetes.

Thanks for the reply :)
He was having a dig at a bloke he disagrees with there I think. You are correct about lifestyle I reckon

Nobody wrote:Chelation? I can only assume this person is not in AU. I haven't known chelation to be practiced in AU for haemo.

In Perth. I wouldn't know about chelation.


Nobody wrote:
But mainly I drink a lot of milk and eat a lot of hard cheese and yogurt.

There are better ways to get a lot of calcium without the hormones, cholesterol, high saturated fat, bio-accumulated toxins and puss of dairy. Almonds, linseed, celery, oranges, mandarins and beans, to name just some.


Dairy is chit I agree. We are not cloven hoofed, 4 legged babies, that grow to 800kg.
It is the baby food of another species.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:47 pm

Thanks WH1. So it looks like WA does chelation. I'm glad I don't live there because I'd much prefer bleeding. Less side effects.

_____________________________________________

Dr Oz on the benefits of eating vegan. He probably really means eating WFPB since he's talking about the health benefits.
From 04:15 to 07:00:

https://youtu.be/Q4CSm_Es7NI?t=4m15s

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CKinnard
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Mon Sep 04, 2017 8:59 pm

you guys probably have heard of all this stuff by now, but from my Loma Linda and Cornell Uni, and TNH notes:

to increase iron absorption:
- consider heme iron sources (meat and dairy)
- include with iron containing meals, foods high in vitamin c, beta carotene, simple sugars.
- less endurance exercise

to decrease iron absorption and reserves:
- include phytates (especially legumes and bran), oxalates (spinach), tumeric, tannins, caffeine, and lots of absorption competing minerals Ca, Cu, Mg, Zn (low oxalate leafy greens are good for this).
- don't cook in iron pots or knock your liver around further by drinking alcohol.
- more moderate to high intensity endurance exercise

for both
- ensure a healthy microbiome and good stress mgt so as to normalize GIT digestion and absorption.
- don't overeat = higher iron intake.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:40 am

last night's block of tofu. a tad softer than the firm commercial blocks but fine for soups and frying.

this was moulded in one of those takeaway food containers
It is the yield of :
200 g of raw soy bean = 80 cents worth.
The final block weighs 405g, and volume is 420ml.

firm organic commercial tofu blocks from Aldi are 450grams for $3.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby march83 » Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:45 am

CK, can you briefly describe the labour required to make it? Is it worth considering doing?

For reference, I regularly make my own soy yoghurt, coconut yoghurt, etc. I'm not adverse to putting in a bit of work, but I'm just not sure if its justifiable to save $2 a week...

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:09 pm

soak beans overnight. drain and rinse.
add 3-4cups water to 1cup beans.
blend.
bring to boil and simmer for 10-30 mins.
filter through muslin cloth.
you now have pure soy milk!
bring up to 80C then turn off heat.
(separately, add 7grams Epsom Salts/100g raw beans to a cup of boiled water, dissolve by stirring.)
sprinkle the mixture in 3 goes to the hot milk stirring a little after each. usually 2mins between each addition.
put lid on pot and leave to stand for 30 minutes.
curds will form, gently pour off water, or ladle out curds gently.
dump curds in muslin cloth, and place into moulds to shape.
apply a 2-3kg pressure on top of the mould to drive out excess water...takes about 20-30 minutes.
remove from mould, take off muslin cloth, put in suitable storage container (the mould containers will do), store in fridge covered in cold water.
change water every 1-2 days....keeps for about a week.

Is it worth it from a financial point of view? not for me, due to time labor heat.
For a low income Asian family of 4 that ate a kg or more a week, and could source beans for $2-3/kg, it would probably be worth it. But it is definitely a product that would benefit from being produced in bulk.
But the goal of life isn't to sit around idly. Some things are done and enjoyed for education, self reliance, and satisfaction of consuming something home made. :)
I don't think most realize how tenuous a position Australia is in regarding food security, due to how critically dependent we are on oil imports. I know it is prepper mentality, but I tend to think self reliance is going to become more important in the next 25 years, unfortunately.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:38 pm

CKinnard wrote:you guys probably have heard of all this stuff by now, but from my Loma Linda and Cornell Uni, and TNH notes...

Thanks CK.

Obviously I'm not going to be eating animal products. Of all that's left I've found that to avoid iron, I can't eat green leafy veg. Everything else doesn't appear to make enough difference to me.
Of the competing minerals, Ca appears to be the most useful since it can be taken in larger amounts, focusing on whole plant based foods without concern of overload. I've found 700-1000mg/d very effective so far, which is nowhere near the upper limit of 2500mg/d.
https://www.nrv.gov.au/nutrients/calcium

Considering how long I've known about this and how much self study I've done on it, I'm surprised I've only found the above to apply in my case. Everything else I've tried didn't appear to make much difference.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby warthog1 » Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:36 pm

CKinnard wrote:soak beans overnight. drain and rinse.
add 3-4cups water to 1cup beans.
blend.
bring to boil and simmer for 10-30 mins.
filter through muslin cloth.
you now have pure soy milk!
bring up to 80C then turn off heat.
(separately, add 7grams Epsom Salts/100g raw beans to a cup of boiled water, dissolve by stirring.)
sprinkle the mixture in 3 goes to the hot milk stirring a little after each. usually 2mins between each addition.
put lid on pot and leave to stand for 30 minutes.
curds will form, gently pour off water, or ladle out curds gently.
dump curds in muslin cloth, and place into moulds to shape.
apply a 2-3kg pressure on top of the mould to drive out excess water...takes about 20-30 minutes.
remove from mould, take off muslin cloth, put in suitable storage container (the mould containers will do), store in fridge covered in cold water.
change water every 1-2 days....keeps for about a week.

Is it worth it from a financial point of view? not for me, due to time labor heat.
For a low income Asian family of 4 that ate a kg or more a week, and could source beans for $2-3/kg, it would probably be worth it. But it is definitely a product that would benefit from being produced in bulk.
But the goal of life isn't to sit around idly. Some things are done and enjoyed for education, self reliance, and satisfaction of consuming something home made. :)
I don't think most realize how tenuous a position Australia is in regarding food security, due to how critically dependent we are on oil imports. I know it is prepper mentality, but I tend to think self reliance is going to become more important in the next 25 years, unfortunately.




Sent that to an Adventist colleague.
Thanks :)

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:15 am

warthog1 wrote:
Sent that to an Adventist colleague.
Thanks :)


something I didn't make clear.

you add 3-4 cups of water to every 1 cup of beans after they have been soaked overnight (or 8 hours).
I'd recommend about 250 grams of dry beans to yield a 450 gram block of tofu, which is the size of the larger blocks in supermarkets.

from memory, 1 cup of dry beans is almost 200g

I used MgSO4 (epsom salts) as the coagulent, but the commercial blocks I buy use MgCl2, which I haven't tried yet. It's possible this will get a firmer tofu. I believe beer brewer shops stock it, and health food stores might stock it as Nigari, a Japanese fluid form of the product.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby warthog1 » Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:43 am

Thanks CK I'll pass it on :)

This was a interesting
http://www.vietworldkitchen.com/blog/20 ... guide.html

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:29 am

warthog1 wrote:Thanks CK I'll pass it on :)

This was a interesting
http://www.vietworldkitchen.com/blog/20 ... guide.html


yep, that's one of very few good resources re tofu making.
here's another I felt helped.
http://www.mrtempeh.com.au/tofu-coagulants.html

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby warthog1 » Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:22 pm

Thanks :)

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sun Sep 10, 2017 10:46 pm



If you listen to all the comments, it becomes clear that the answer isn't as simple as it may first appear. I've certainly put on weight eating a near perfect, high carb, low fat, no SOS, WFPB diet. So it can be done. It's just harder to do.

Some comments that resonated with me is that people talk less about foods and more about macronutrients. So people are generally glorifying protein and blaming carbs. It's too simplistic.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:32 am

Yeah I saw that vid today.
I am afraid not all doctors, even PBWF doctors can know everything....and I think the ones that hold out saying carbs are not stored signficantly as fat if at all.....well, they are wrong. And that includes Michael Klaper who said on many occasions while I was there that the fat you eat is the fat you wear, and that you burn off excessive carbs via heat. It just isn't true though. But these guys are older and have been at it a long time, and started when a lot less was known.
One of the foreign doctors nailed it in saying excess carbs are stored as fat, but 15% of the carbs are lost in the conversion reactions.

And as someone said in the comments of that vid, if the typical respiratory quotient indicates 50% of energy expenditure at rest is fat, and 40-50% with light to moderate activities, then a diet of 20% fat and 70% carbs must involve some carbs being converted to fat.

And below follows from one of the most widely used medical texts in the world, the explanation of how carbs are converted to fat.
__________________________________________________________

From Guyton and Hall : Textbook of Medical Physiology 12th edition


Synthesis of Triglycerides from Carbohydrates
Whenever a greater quantity of carbohydrates enters the body than can be used immediately for energy or can be stored in the form of glycogen, the excess is rapidly converted into triglycerides and stored in this form in the adipose tissue.
In human beings, most triglyceride synthesis occurs in the liver, but minute quantities are also synthesized in the adipose tissue itself. The triglycerides formed in the liver are transported mainly in VLDLs to the adipose tissue, where they are stored.
Conversion of Acetyl-CoA into Fatty Acids
The first step in the synthesis of triglycerides is conversion of carbohydrates into acetyl-CoA. As explained in Chapter 67, this occurs during the normal degradation of glucose by the glycolytic system. Because fatty acids are actually large polymers of acetic acid, it is easy to understand how acetyl-CoA can be converted into fatty acids. However, the synthesis of fatty acids from acetyl-CoA is not achieved by simply reversing the oxidative degradation described earlier. Instead, this occurs by the two-step process shown in Figure 68-3, using malonyl-CoA and NADPH as the principal intermediates in the polymerization process.

Combination of Fatty Acids with α-Glycerophosphate to Form Triglycerides
Once the synthesized fatty acid chains have grown to contain 14 to 18 carbon atoms, they bind with glycerol to form triglycerides. The enzymes that cause this conversion are highly specific for fatty acids with chain lengths of 14 carbon atoms or greater, a factor that controls the physical quality of the triglycerides stored in the body.
As shown in Figure 68-4, the glycerol portion of triglycerides is furnished by α-glycerophosphate, which is another product derived from the glycolytic scheme of glucose degradation. This mechanism is discussed in Chapter 67.
Efficiency of Carbohydrate Conversion into Fat
During triglyceride synthesis, only about 15 percent of the original energy in the glucose is lost in the form of heat; the remaining 85 percent is transferred to the stored triglycerides.


Importance of Fat Synthesis and Storage

Fat synthesis from carbohydrates is especially important for two reasons:
The ability of the different cells of the body to store carbohydrates in the form of glycogen is generally slight; a maximum of only a few hundred grams of glycogen can be stored in the liver, the skeletal muscles, and all other tissues of the body put together. In contrast, many kilograms of fat can be stored in adipose tissue. Therefore, fat synthesis provides a means by which the energy of excess ingested carbohydrates (and proteins) can be stored for later use. Indeed, the average person has almost 150 times as much energy stored in the form of fat as stored in the form of carbohydrate.
Each gram of fat contains almost two and a half times the calories of energy contained by each gram of glycogen. Therefore, for a given weight gain, a person can store several times as much energy in the form of fat as in the form of carbohydrate, which is exceedingly important when an animal must be highly motile to survive.

Failure to Synthesize Fats from Carbohydrates in the Absence of Insulin
When insufficient insulin is available, as occurs in serious diabetes mellitus, fats are poorly synthesized, if at all, for the following reasons: First, when insulin is not available, glucose does not enter the fat and liver cells satisfactorily, so little of the acetyl-CoA and NADPH needed for fat synthesis can be derived from glucose. Second, lack of glucose in the fat cells greatly reduces the availability of α-glycerophosphate, which also makes it difficult for the tissues to form triglycerides.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sun Sep 17, 2017 6:35 pm

BB, you might appreciate this questionnaire, from the book The Edge Effect by Eric Braverman

It types people who are struggling with cravings into various neurotransmitter disturbances, and recommends how to refind balance.

I heard about it at True North, but found it surreptitiously this weekend.
Some health clinicians say it is amazingly accurate.

https://romeomilea.wordpress.com/2014/0 ... erman-m-d/

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:56 am

I've been trawling through low carb resources for the last 2 months, trying to understand the guts of their belief. They've got some excellent presentations that are aiding my understanding of pathophysiology of insulin resistance and DT2 dev't, weight gain, NAFLD

Some interesting snippets:

- on newer more sensitive dx tests, 35-40% of Westerners have elevated insulin, meaning they are insulin resistant.

- insulin resistance leads to non alcoholic fatty liver disease (NAFLD), metabolic syndrome, T2D, CVD.

- anyone with insulin resistance will convert more carbs to fat via denovo lipogenesis, even on a eucaloric diet, because fat cells cannot adequately uptake fat and glucose from the blood. This is a depth of understanding I've never heard from the PBWF team, some of whom deny DNL exists.

- a significant driver of IR is as adipocytes become more full of fat (triglycerides), the intra- and inter- adipocyte pressure compromises blood flow (hypoxia and reduced insulin delivery), macrophage attraction/inflammation/cytokine production, reduced angiogenesis (capillary sprouting) compromises capacity to create new adipocytes in a timely manner, leaky and reduced fat storage leading to spillover into circulation of triglycerides and FFAs, decreased insulin sensitivity and ability to take in glucose, elevated blood glucose. The higher circulating TAGs (triglycerides) and glucose go back to the liver and increase DNL, storage (NAFLD) and production of VLDL. Fat also gets stored ectopically in inappropriate tissue. On this basis, the most powerful strategy to reverse the process is weight loss, via a fast or significant Calorie deficit, and cardio exercise to increase blood flow through fat tissue. There is some substance to easing the work of a NAFLD liver by decreasing carbs, especially refined and fructose, of the weight loss diet. But on 1000 Cal deficit for most of us, low carb (<100g) should happen automatically.

So what starts insulin resistance?
Excess Calorie intake. doesn't matter what the macros are in my view, but they believe all carbs compound the problem. Once it starts, there's a lot of positive feedback making it difficult to reverse.

So the solution is : lose weight, move more. and secondarily get good sleep, manage stress.

Even though this guy recommends a very low carb ketogenic diet, I still think his presentation of the pathophysiology is excellent:


Dr. Worm is a highly respected nutrition researcher and author in the German speaking world.
___________________________________________________________

Another topic I've been fleshing out is how fiber contributes to appetite control. Here's a brilliant chart summary:

https://www.nature.com/ijo/journal/v39/ ... 1584a.html
International Journal of Obesity (2015) 39, 1331–1338; doi:10.1038/ijo.2015.84; published online 9 June 2015
The role of short chain fatty acids in appetite regulation and energy homeostasis
C S Byrne1, E S Chambers1, D J Morrison2 and G Frost1
Image
An overarching model for the beneficial effects of colonic SCFA production on appetite regulation and energy homeostasis. FCs, fermentable carbohydrates; FFA, free fatty acids; FFA2, free fatty acid receptor 2; FFA3, free fatty acid receptor 3; GLP-1, glucagon like peptide-1; IGN, intestinal gluconeogenesis; PYY, peptide YY; SCFAs, short chain fatty acids; TG, triglyceride.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Patt0 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:07 am

I was somewhat amazed to find that I was very close to being on a ketogenic diet (<50g carbs)just through cutting calories, junk food and sugar. If I wanted to give up the cow mucous in my coffee it would be easy.
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:29 am

Patt0 wrote:I was somewhat amazed to find that I was very close to being on a ketogenic diet (<50g carbs)just through cutting calories, junk food and sugar. If I wanted to give up the cow mucous in my coffee it would be easy.


Yes Pat, I think a lot of this low vs high carb diet arguing suffers from not defining terms.
Many authorities consider anything less than 150grams of carbs is a low carb diet. Though a detail often lost is that is supposed to apply to a 2000 Calorie intake.

Nevertheless, an unarguable goal of comfortable weight loss is to more efficiently burn fat reserves, which requires avoiding high insulin spikes or background levels. That's very achievable by favoring fibrous carbs and other high fiber low insulin index foods (legumes) which slow absorption of glucose, fructose, and galactose (if you have dairy).

Many think glycogen is our only store of glucose.....however, it helps to also think of healthy high fiber high carb meals sitting in the gut as glucose storage, with a slow release valve.

Dietary fat on the other hand is absorbed very quickly, driving up triglycerides earlier than a high carb meal, even more so if one is overweight and insulin resistant. Triglycerides and cholesterol will bang and bump around in the circulation for longer in the insulin resistant, and will more likely be stored in ectopic loci, including atheromatous plaques.

The one glaring oversight I see in the low carb view is they ignore the dangers of post prandial hyperlipidemia (elevated post meal triglycerides and cholesterol). They think it is all about addressing elevated glucose and insulin spikes, which is certainly important but easily done with a low fat diet.

This paper has a nice explanation for why post prandial hyperlipidemia cannot be ignored as a significant risk factor for CVD.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 8715003834

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:55 pm

Interesting writeup CK. So to put it in simple terms that the general public can understand, if one has insulin resistance for example the diabetics then carbs are impact you to a greater extent than those who don't have insulin resistance, for example unwanted weight gain.

Is the carbs being referred to sugar or starch or both, ie all carbs?
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Thoglette » Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:43 pm

CKinnard wrote:So the solution is : lose weight, move more.

So far, so good
CKinnard wrote:and secondarily get good sleep, manage stress.

Ah, well, that's me b&ggered!

(Other half just rang up to say "the car just died" :shock: )
Last edited by Thoglette on Wed Sep 20, 2017 2:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:32 pm

mikesbytes wrote:Interesting writeup CK. So to put it in simple terms that the general public can understand, if one has insulin resistance for example the diabetics then carbs are impact you to a greater extent than those who don't have insulin resistance, for example unwanted weight gain.

Is the carbs being referred to sugar or starch or both, ie all carbs?


Re what is referred to as carbs, it varies in control between studies. But it is disingenuous to compare low carb diets with a diet loaded with refined carbs. And as I've said, I am eating PBWF at the moment but due to the Calorie deficit am eating 'low carb'. These terms are inadequate.

Mike, there's newer more sensitive measures of insulin resistance that posit 35-40% of the adult population of industrialized Western nations are insulin resistant. i.e they have an abnormally elevated insulin response to meals. They say metabolic syndrome and pre-diabetes progress over decades before they are picked up by less sensitive tests.

On that basis, 40% of the population at least will have insulin resistance, and be more sensitive to carbs, which means more will have more TAGs, cholesterol and carbs via DNL stored in the liver and outside of fat cells.

However, we are talking about a population who average a SAD, which is usually highly deficient in whole starchy and fibrous carbs. The take home message is, to avoid insulin resistance or reverse it, understand how important it is to slow absorption of nutrients from the gut.... and that is done via a lower fat very high fiber diet.

After trawling dozens of LCHF diet studies, I note few if any have used a PBWF SOS inspired diet to represent the comparative low fat diet. So they are essentially comparing their low carbs to something more like a SAD, which doesn't prove a lot.

Exceptional insulin spikes and hunger pangs diminish on a PBWF SOS type diet, just as much as for low carb diets, for the insulin resistant and overweight, and normals. More often though, overweight IR's are conditioned to eating less vegetables and higher animal produce loads, and therefore feel more comfortable on that stuff. Further, many who have been obese for many years, are very sedentary and unlikely to increase activity dramatically.

I have been trying to understand whether the low carb movement has some significant overlooked advantage. To date, I haven't found anything. What I have found is they are ignoring the research regarding low carb hyperlipidemia, and a very high fiber diet (as can only be had on a PBWF diet.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Patt0 » Wed Sep 20, 2017 5:34 am

CKinnard wrote:
Patt0 wrote:
This paper has a nice explanation for why post prandial hyperlipidemia cannot be ignored as a significant risk factor for CVD.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 8715003834


That is an eloquent review. Looks like we can push fat, along with the carbs and muscle off the plate. Oh my goodness, what is left? :wink:

In my youth I actually had meals that included ~kilo of animal fat. I can clearly remember thinking now is not the time for heavy exertion lest I suffer a heart attack or something fatal. My search for the perfect diet is a long story, but the conclusion was such. It is not so important what you put in your mouth, but when.

Have you found any papers/studies done on location of CVD in the body? Preferably with populations eating a homogenous diet.
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:12 pm

The cram circuit. New information on another reason why we overeat.


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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:51 am

Small RCT on WFPB vs "normal care".

The BMI difference was 3.9 over 6 months, which was achieved without added exercise or food restriction.

Conclusions: This programme led to significant improvements in BMI, cholesterol and other risk factors. To the best of our knowledge, this research has achieved greater weight loss at 6 and 12 months than any other trial that does not limit energy intake or mandate regular exercise.


https://www.nature.com/nutd/journal/v7/ ... 0173a.html

The participants' adherence to what they were encouraged to do doesn't appear to be very high from their limited cholesterol change of 0.7 mmol/L over 6 months. My change was 2.8.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:13 pm

Nobody wrote:The cram circuit. New information on another reason why we overeat.


Was just thinking about Doug's ideas here after seeing your new post.

I can't agree with the cram thing.
If you look at Aussie Aboriginals or any traditional primitive tribal community, I would argue communal food sharing pressure trumps opportunity to indulge in abundance....and that our ancestors were just better adapted to accessing fat reserves for several days without eating, or eating minimally.

At this point I think a less rushed lifestyle (and not developing insulin resistance and high bodyfat) makes us more efficient at accessing bodyfat reserves.

I think something profound could be learned from Aus Aboriginals having a low tolerance for refined carbs, in that when they have them regularly, they quickly develop insulin resistance and T2D.

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