Plant Based Diet Thread

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big booty
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby big booty » Tue Aug 22, 2017 4:04 pm

Hmm really depends on how you interpret those papers. You ingest fat you store fat (in the liver and adipose). That's to be expected and is a good thing. Too much is another story. My personal take is that processed carbs in combination with fat is the problem. I eat lots of nuts and cheese. They are my go to snack food. My main meals are usually veggie/legumes based. Sometimes I will have protein when my body is screaming for it. Which is usually after strenuous physical activity.

My DEXA scan looks pretty good and is pretty lean around the liver area. Being overweight is the problem. The "poison" food choice that gets you there is completely up you. I know you've done those TrueNorth fasts in the past. You should incorporate fasting as a natural dietary cycle. Amazing how quickly your liver starts to utilise fats once its been trained. Ive been doing it for nearly 2 years now. Every Monday is my fast day. Im into ketosis within 24 hours. I do not eat a keto diet, however my carbs are dominated by veggie and legumes. Virtually no grains of any sort.

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CKinnard
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Tue Aug 22, 2017 4:44 pm

hmmm. if you ingest too much fat (or carbs), you store more fat!
if you ingest a eucaloric diet, your fat reserves should stay the same.

my personal take is if you are distressed (high cortisol) you tend to overeat, and the wrong stuff (simple carbs, excess fat).

have you ever considered the paradox that you desire fat laden snacks when you already have enough fat reserves?! :)
my take on that is you might not adequately circulate adrenalin to your fat tissue to mobilize your fatty acids. So I'd be revisiting your fluid intake throughout the day, and your general activity levels (just moving around a bit can shift blood flow and get adrenalin up a bit).

I've tried the one day fasting before, but had issues sustaining it beyond a month or so.
Skipping breakfast 4-5 days a week has been a bit more sustainable.

I got back 2 weeks ago from 6 weeks work at True North. THe weight melted off me. Lost 7kg in 6 weeks and cravings for the most part went away. I can only presume it was because I was on my feet a lot walking around++ tending patients, intellectually engaged, socially stimulated....and very hot during the days. Though there was still considerable stress, with night shift several times a week and lots of additional demands on my time and energy. I had been craving wine every night until I went away....and within 2 days of getting there alcohol wasn't an issue at all. It was quite amazing actually. I think in my case at least, cravings and overeating have a strong psycho-social component.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby big booty » Tue Aug 22, 2017 8:17 pm

Fully agree about the cortisol stress connection. I probably don't drink enough water. I eat my cheese and nuts after my meal like other people eat dessert. The difference I find is that it satiates me very quickly and the desire to go and have a second helping as would be the case for traditional sugary desserts really isn't there. I don't think there is any easy way to short cut fasting and feeling comfortable about it. It took me six months before I found it "easy". I don't think one month gets you there. Ive never tried an extended fast greater than 66 hours, rather I regularly fast for 36 hours once every week. Have you read any of the stuff by Valter Longo?

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CKinnard
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Tue Aug 22, 2017 8:34 pm

Have I read Valter Longo? hahaha. yes...and he was at True North for a few days when I was there so I shared a few meals with him. He's working with Toshia Myers there to do fasting studies on humans. He was pleasantly surprised that I knew a lot about Roy Walford, who he considered a mentor.

During my time at True North this year, I've consolidated on dysregulated appetite being very much driven by psycho-social issues for many people. I think it is a much bigger thing than most realize. Many patients' appetites fell through the floor while there, fasting or not, and a lot of it in my view was due to the social stimulation, and sense of being accepted, and in a....ahem....safe space! Nevertheless, we all have to live in the real world, and develop a robustness that doesn't dysregulate appetite. Easier said than done, but I am evolving ideas.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Tue Aug 22, 2017 9:37 pm

CKinnard wrote:The common finding is that one should avoid being overweight.


Well said

And from that point onwards its refinement
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby big booty » Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:47 pm

Going to have to wait for the English version of his longevity book. My Italian reading comprehension just isn't good enough unless its written for a 6 year old. I agree with you regards psycho-social issues and abnormal eating. I think it plays a big part. I think its easy to get to 90% (just a round figure I plucked out of thin air) of a really healthy diet, yet most of the population cant seem to be able to do it. Why is that?

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby big booty » Wed Aug 23, 2017 2:18 pm

@CK. Your two cents worth please. With reference to a eucaloric diet, how different would the calorific value of that diet be depending on what it was that you actually ate? Also do you know of any papers that have looked at T3 T4 and TSH levels during periods of pre fasting, fasting and post fasting?

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Wed Aug 23, 2017 3:33 pm

big booty wrote:@CK. Your two cents worth please. With reference to a eucaloric diet, how different would the calorific value of that diet be depending on what it was that you actually ate? Also do you know of any papers that have looked at T3 T4 and TSH levels during periods of pre fasting, fasting and post fasting?


1. eucaloric diets. hmmm I presume your angle/s are: not all foods are equal in 'thermic effect of food' i.e. the energy required to absorb celery vs saturated fat Calories....or that Calories absorbed from nuts is dependent on how much you chew them, or whether you blend them into a nut milk....green smoothies vs raw ingredients....and the variability in individual brown adipose tissue and its stimulation after eating.

ok, some facts:
- 'average' TEF for Pro = 27%, CHO = 10%, Fat = 10%. If you are eating a substantially plant based diet, at eucaloric levels, you are not going to vary protein percent significantly while retaining optimal nutrient density....so TEF is not going to vary much.
- if you want to drink Calories rather than eat them by consuming mainly blended soups and smoothies, then you have to accept the adverse consequences that this is not how the GIT is designed (or evolved). Solid food boluses stimulate - the opening and shutting of various sphincters and hence are protective against several hernias; enteric blood flow; enterocyte protective mucus production; healthy peristaltic waves; the release of digestive enzymes, pH balancers, bile; the reabsorption of water and electrolytes, the formation of stools requiring less straining; etc.

2. regarding TSH, T3/T4, I don't know of any dietary intervention that reverses abnormal thyroid function. There's more than enough BS on the internet about such things, but it is gobbledegook when you consider thyroxine is supposed to be taken on an empty stomach, and diet should not effect thyroid function if you have healthy dietary iodine (this esp applies to soy products). Thyroid issues I feel are related to all life stressors, not just those associated with a sub par diet. I know too many people who have always eaten very healthily who have developed abnormal thyroid function. That's not to say a crap diet won't accelerate abnormal thyroid conditions though. In saying that, I have one GP friend who believes patients should transition to a healthy PBWF diet before taking thyroxine (when they have normal T3/4 levels but elevated TSH). And at True North, when patients go on a weight loss intake or water fast, they recommend halving thyroxine dose. Thyroxine is one of very few meds True North does not cut out completely when water fasting. From that, I think it is probably worth searching the literature to see what effect intermittent fasting or calorie restriction has on thyroxine medication needs.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Thu Aug 24, 2017 10:32 am

The legume sprouting process

pic one is dry beans (ord river chick peas, dark kidney beans, and faba beans) straight out of packaging.
pic 2 is after 24 hours of water immersion, and 2 days of sprouting (with twice daily resoaking).

The chick peas appeared to begin sprouting within 24 hours and have the highest portion sprouting.
The faba beans are a little less sprouted in proportion (the lighter of the two non chickpea beans).
And the dark kidney beans have minimal if any sprout formation, to date.

I've been reading the literature over the last few nights re anti-nutrient neutralization re legumes. It's not an easy subject to develop a balanced overview on, and it lends itself to people drawing strong for and against stances.

Red kidney beans have the highest level of the lectin phytohemagglutinin, which is the most toxic lectin.
It may be that the dark red kidney beans I am using are even higher in concentration, and therefore need to be processed more carefully.
White kidney beans have 1/3 the toxin of the red, and broad beans have <10% of the red.

Legumes have been used as staples in every major culture on the planet, and there's no doubt they offer a dose related health advantage.
I think we need to be mindful that our ancestors would have prioritized foods that stored well to get them through the food scarcity of drought and winters. This is certainly the case for legumes and grains, and is one of the strongest counterpoints against the low carb Paleo crowd.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby march83 » Thu Aug 24, 2017 2:41 pm

I haven't tried sprouting yet, but I've been doing 24hr soaks with my chickpeas, then cooking for ~90minutes and they're so amazingly creamy and delicious, just miles ahead of the tinned version. Amazing...

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby big booty » Thu Aug 24, 2017 11:47 pm

Wow you guys really seem to be going to lengths. I either boil and use. Or boil and fridge or soak overnight. Throw in lots of leafy greens and or mushrooms as well CK. You got nothing to lose. At worst it will add a new dimension to the flavour. At best you wont be trumpeting your displeasure.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Fri Aug 25, 2017 9:31 am

BB, I am going to lengths to systematically investigate reduction of gassiness.
Today is day 3 of sprouting and the chick peas continue like virile adolescents, but the dark kidney beans are on the whole....retarded! I have a feeling it's probably the dark kidney beans that are the prime flatus fiends. Red kidney beans are higher in other anti-nutrients - lectins and phytic acid so possibly the same for the gas creating oligosaccharides. But it might just be inferior beans grown on dodgier soils.
The less worrisome chick peas are from the Ord River in Oz.

Regarding adding vege, yes that's a given mate. Though rather then make a bean chilli/stew with all vege added from the outset, I'll pre- pressure cook the beans then add all other ingredients for chilli, so as not to kill the veg dead. I also have steam veg or salad separate from the beans.

I am also going to buy organic beans next time. Non organic float around $4-6/kg. Organic seem about double that, which is still a cheap form of protein, anti-oxidants, phytonutrients, and fiber.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Fri Aug 25, 2017 9:42 am

Incidentally, Michael Greger has just released Volume 38 in his clinical nutrition series.
This is quite timely as I have a GP friend who has been reading The Plant Paradox (by thoracic surgeon Dr Steven Gundry) and he wants to catch up on the weekend to discuss. Gundry thinks lectins are the greater villain in causing leaky gut syndrome and a host of resulting diseases (legumes are high in lectins but are mostly neurtalized with boiling). I've heard and read Gundry's main justifications, but think he is seriously overshooting and ignoring a lot of other literature, and this is common when health pros let pride and arrogance trump intellectual rigor and humility. Nevertheless, the guy is making millions from his clinic and a plethora of supplements. In Greger's latest volume, he explains why Gundry is wrong. I hope to listen to it tonight.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby big booty » Fri Aug 25, 2017 10:27 am

Hmmm lectins in beans cause problems. Ive got a theory about such concepts in general. Correlation is not the same as causation. That's the problem with looking at foods in isolation, as a vast majority of studies do. Limited funds and limited sample size. What if there is another underlying reason for leaky gut and under such conditions then yes lectin may exacerbate the condition, but it is not the cause.

Had a chat with my mum recently (Italian background) and I asked her what her diet was back when she was a young girl (1940s) and I was surprised to hear that it contained very little grain based foods. Things like bread and pizza were "treat foods" much like we eat cakes and biscuits now days. They were had once per week if at all. The staple was lots of veggies and legumes. Fruit was a summer thing. Meat and fish was perhaps had once per week and mum's family were fishermen and farmers/herders. I suppose you didn't want to eat your profits. If the majority of your foods come from plants with a little bit of meat/fish/dairy I think your most of the way there. Its such a simple concept but it doesn't seem to be catching on.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Fri Aug 25, 2017 3:30 pm

Yes, I think comprehension of gut issues (leaky, inflammatory, etc) is poorly understood, and I don't give a lot of credence to those who loudly proclaim one predominant cause. As I have said elsewhere, diet may not be the primary cause at all. I am always surprised when research goes down a particular track totally ignoring fundamental anatomy and physiology of particular organs or a system. My view is general psychoemotional and physiological distress, and immune disturbance may play a much more important role than currently accepted. The mind can certainly shunt blood away from the gut and severely compromise its protection and digestive and absorptive functions.

Nevertheless, I accept lectins are problematic, as are the carbs reliant on alpha galactosidase to digest them (which humans lack but our microbiome don't). But there's more than adequate evidence that cooking legumes appropriately removes lectin and gas issues for the great majority. The reasons I am experimenting are
1. that I have not had an in depth understanding of how to prepare beans optimally, especially for different varieties and organic vs non organic. Most naturopaths and integrative doctors take the view excess gas is due to not having the right balance microbiome. I don't buy that completely based on my experience of having lots of gas in Oz but hardly any back in California.
2. the science does show a definite health advantage for those who eat more legumes...though that might just be compared to those who eat more animal stuff. I recommend legumes professionally all the time, and need to be able to back that up. Now in saying that, I know a lot of dietitians, and none of them understand legume preparation to a level that will satisfy me. And forget about doctors! I had a patient today who is struggling to cross to eating canned chickpeas with her salad. she just doesn't "like" them despite smothering them in a favorite oil based salad dressing! She is low 30s bodyfat%, her ankles swell, she tells me her kidney function is compromised, she gets sore feet generally when walking, and has been suffering from plantar fasciitis in one foot for 4 months (and "nothing seems to work"), and she is off to walk the Camino de Santiago trail in 3 weeks. :roll: She has really tested me, and if I wasn't building up clientele again, I'd let her go (and say come back when your fed up with the pain and mobility challenge), as she is one of those who just doesn't comprehend that she has to change her dietary habits to improve her wellbeing and there will be a period of adjustment involved.

Regarding your Mum, yes I am well aware traditional Italian diet smashes the legumes, and is light on the animal flesh. Energy from eating animals is not the most efficient way to utilize land due to time, and water and grazing space required. Though I didn't know about the low intake of starchy carbs. An old friend of my parents is very traditional Italian, and he used to eat polenta 2-3 times a week. I suppose these things are always reliant on amount of time and energy required. Starches store very well, and it may have been preferred they be stored away for periods when food is scarce. Grains also take a lot of space to grow, and are difficult to harvest from land that is anything but flat. So most subsistence farmers probably didn't have the space or right land for a lot of grains. Legumes and vege on the other hand don't take as much space and can grow on the side of a hill or among rocks. And I'd say the same about eating animals. To eat them regularly would mean needing a lot more at any one time, and many farmers probably didn't have the land holdings to do so. I have a strong feeling if we were to go back 200-500 years in time, and interview Italians living outside cities, their diet probably was driven by very very logical principles, like
- why kill a sheep or cow every 2-3 weeks when you can milk one for 7 years and have milk and cheese every week?
- why have three cows when you then need three times the pasture, when you could have half the pasture to accommodate one cow and enough legumes and vege to feed the family?

If I had the time, it would be very enlightening to research the economics and sociology of farming through history. I am sure traditional diets are due very much to those things.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby big booty » Sat Aug 26, 2017 9:27 am

@CK. I suspect that what you ate in the 40s/50s was based on what the region could support and what you could afford. What surprised my was how little pasta/bread was eaten. That's not the reason I now eat minimal processed grain products, I had arrived at that conclusion prior to having my chat with my mum. It just came as a surprise to me. It is only in the last 2/3 years since having my epiphany that I have taken eating healthily seriously. Having gone from 92kg down to 70kg and having taken up bike riding again after an absence of 30 or so years. My plan is to die a healthy person (pun intended).

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby cyclotaur » Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:41 am

The only change to my diet in recent times has been (over the last 6 weeks) to cut Weeties/Bix from my breakfast and eliminate bought wholegrain breads on a daily basis. Also reduced the usual number of dry biscuits coincidentally as I don't get peckish about 5-6 pm before dinner like I used to. We've also cut back on potatoes somewhat in favour of more green vegies and salads. Nothing too drastic, more of an adjustment than a revolution. This of course has rebalanced my diet a bit and reduced Kj intake overall due to the elimination of those 4-5 slices of bread, about one small spud, and one Weetbix per day. The only bread I have now is maybe one big slice of 'homemade' sourdough rye per day.

Now one proviso on this has been a total (unintentional !!) bowel cleanse last week when I had a few bad days after eating something I shouldn't have - didn't upset the tummy so much (not at all really) but flushed the system below that quite <ahem> thoroughly. I lost 2 kg over 4 days but have regained it since Monday. I actually feel pretty good at the moment.

Effects...? Over the following (now) 6 weeks, with nothing else changing, and much less actual cycling than in past winters, I've dropped at least 2kg, nearer to 3kg really. But the most interesting thing in the last 2 weeks is the sudden absence of general body ache/pain - the sore back, achy hips, inflamed arthritic finger joints etc - all the classic 'age-related' niggles. I seem to be getting better sleep and wake up a bit fresher and without having to hobble around for an hour to 'warm up'.

So I'd say, anecdotally/personally, that reducing significantly the breads, wheaty-cereals and some of the starchy carb veggies has been a positive move for me.
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Sat Aug 26, 2017 12:51 pm

big booty, Cyclotaur, well done on your improvements. I see it as a case of what works for you and it works for you.

I usually do a cooked breakfast as I'm home for breakfast (except Fridays). Back in 2012 I was bike commuting 2 days a week to work, 40k there and 35k home. It was convenient to eat breakfast at work so I was eating weetbix/vitabix and fruit for breakie.
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sat Aug 26, 2017 6:41 pm

Cyclotaur, you must be on a Calorie deficit if losing weight. THis alone can reduce inflammation (the cause of stiff and sore joints, and general inflammation). Nevertheless, more non starchy vegetables also decreases inflammation a lot, though it is a hard sell for some.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby cyclotaur » Sun Aug 27, 2017 11:15 am

CKinnard wrote:Cyclotaur, you must be on a Calorie deficit if losing weight. THis alone can reduce inflammation (the cause of stiff and sore joints, and general inflammation). Nevertheless, more non starchy vegetables also decreases inflammation a lot, though it is a hard sell for some.

Certainly running a small Kj deficit compared to before, but with no hunger or cravings at all. Cutting just the one Weetbix and say 3 slices of commercial bread per day saved me about 1700kj, which is enough to put my intake down to a level more likely to see my weight gradually fall from 78-79kg to low 70s, which is where I want to be. Rebalancing in favour of less starchy veg also contributes I think. Otherwise not much of an adjustment, but working so far. And really, after the initial changes, not that hard.

After last weeks 'mishap' I regained some weight on recovery but have already resumed a gradual downward trend. On course (about halfway there....) to drop about 6kg over 3 months.

This will be a major benefit for me. I lost 6-8 kgs over about 6 months when I retired and began riding further and regularly but the last 6-8 kgs has remained stubbornly in place since then, another 6 years. In that time my weight has only dropped when I've clocked a few weeks of big kms (300+) and gone back to 78/79kgs as soon as kms dropped back to the more usual 200 per week.

The old cliché applies - "You can't outrun(ride) a bad diet."
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Back to the Kitchen

Postby Thoglette » Sun Aug 27, 2017 2:20 pm

On a lighter note.
From The Guardian
The new vegan: Meera Sodha’s recipe for sweet potato momos

I'll have half a dozen of those, please!
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:45 pm

Thoglette, I spent a few weeks in Darjeeling one winter....and partook of many momos, though steer away from deep fried things these days.

Just made my first test batch of tofu from raw soy beans.

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This batch turned out firm but not as firm as the 'firm' stuff at the shops. I used epsom salts as the coagulant which worked really well and didn't add a nasty flavor. I had a go last week by heating retail soy milk and adding vinegar as a coagulant. It was not a good result. They say the additives to commercial milks jeopardize results.

I'll mess around with it a bit more, but don't know if I'll make a habit of it. I think it is no doubt healthier to eat the whole beans rather than separate out bits and pieces. Making the soy milk is the first thing you do and that's a lot easier and results are more forgiving so I might mess with that again. I drink soy milk and have been eating a lot of tofu since getting back, mainly in Asian soups.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:10 pm

Not bad at all for a second attempt CK.

It brings up the question about commercial Bean Curd as to what's in it?
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby warthog1 » Sat Sep 02, 2017 12:16 pm

Nobody wrote:Below is an update on my blood iron loading problem.

Well it took a while, but it appears I have achieved my goal of no longer needing venesections (bleedings). To be honest, I didn't know that someone with haemochromatosis could get to the level of ferritin I'm at of 31 ug/L (range: 30 - 300). The one thing I changed and got such a big drop in ferritin - from of 91 to 34 in 6 months - was by supplementing about 12mg of zinc daily before eating, since zinc competes with the absorption of iron. Something worth trying if you have the same problem. The specialist said they are just going to monitor me with the next blood test due in 6 months. I'll probably get another iron studies blood test in 3 months, since it looks like I may be in danger of going too low now. However I'm confident I can easily raise it by reducing zinc supplementation and/or adding some green leafy veg. My new goal is finding a balance at the new low level. My previous specialist said diet didn't make any difference. Well so far I've proven it does in my case. :D

Blood test results below are non-fasting. That's because they took the blood on the day I was denied the venesection for low ferritin. They are from a different lab to previous posted results. Previous ferritin was 34 ug/L a week before. Saturation was 48% a week before, which is a very different result to below.

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I am on another forum and there is a bloke on there with heamochromatosis. He is stating he needs no bleeding and neither do 2 of his family members by following medico advice on diet.
He is a smart bloke. I have no reason to doubt him.
I don't have access to blood results obviously.

I have haemochromatosis, so does my son, my brother and his son and the male decedents (4) of my eldest sister (other sister has 5 girls).

Only one, my sisters oldest, has to be bled.

The rest of us control it with diet, and that does not mean you have to give up red meat at all.

It is also the most like reason for my early predisposition to diabetes (according to my docs), despite some uninformed muppet on here proclaiming diabetes is a poor lifestyle only disease.

Iron accumulation in pancreatic B-cells deteriorates pancreatic insulin secretion.

My nephew has to have venesection once a month. Chelation therapy did not work for him, and the side effects can be just as bad anyway so it is just as well.

I limit my red meat intake somewhat, if I don't I drinks a couple of glasses of red wine with it (tannins). but it is mainly through avoiding sugar (drinks and food), consuming plenty of fruits and vegetables (non-heme iron is the hardest to absorb), nuts, grains, rice and beans.

I love sushi, but it is a no-no, so maybe a once a year thing.

I usually drink tea with a meal, it also has a lot of tannin, and tannins inhibit the absorption of non-heme iron (fruits and vegetables), and it also has an affect on heme iron (meat) to a lesser extent.

But mainly I drink a lot of milk and eat a lot of hard cheese and yogurt.

Calcium is the only known substance that can impair the absorption of both heme and non-heme iron.

Seems to work for me anyway.


I know you have other health benefits by eliminating animal products ;)

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:47 pm

warthog1 wrote:I am on another forum and there is a bloke on there with heamochromatosis. He is stating he needs no bleeding and neither do 2 of his family members by following medico advice on diet.
He is a smart bloke. I have no reason to doubt him.
I don't have access to blood results obviously.

Thanks for posting. :) I posted my suspicions about the link to calcium in this post recently. So it's good to get someone else confirming this.

I have haemochromatosis, so does my son, my brother and his son and the male decedents (4) of my eldest sister (other sister has 5 girls).

Only one, my sisters oldest, has to be bled.

The rest of us control it with diet, and that does not mean you have to give up red meat at all.

It is also the most like reason for my early predisposition to diabetes (according to my docs), despite some uninformed muppet on here proclaiming diabetes is a poor lifestyle only disease.

Iron accumulation in pancreatic B-cells deteriorates pancreatic insulin secretion.

I agree that both types of diabetes require a genetic susceptibility to surface. But IMO too many people use their genes/condition as an excuse so they can continue their lifestyle unchanged when they could have gained some level of benefit from changing it. That applies to both types of diabetes.

My nephew has to have venesection once a month. Chelation therapy did not work for him, and the side effects can be just as bad anyway so it is just as well.

Chelation? I can only assume this person is not in AU. I haven't known chelation to be practiced in AU for haemo.

I love sushi, but it is a no-no, so maybe a once a year thing.

My understanding is seafood has a particular bacteria that thrives in high iron environments and so shouldn't be eaten by people with haemo.

But mainly I drink a lot of milk and eat a lot of hard cheese and yogurt.

There are better ways to get a lot of calcium without the hormones, cholesterol, high saturated fat, bio-accumulated toxins and puss of dairy. Almonds, linseed, celery, oranges, mandarins and beans, to name just some.

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