Plant Based Diet Thread

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Nobody
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sat Mar 10, 2018 1:40 pm

Tequestra wrote:Thank You for opening this thread two years ago, and for the other 998 posts which will likely keep me busy reading all afternoon.

You're welcome. :)
I would have preferred it to be more concise with less contentious, argumentative posts. But it is what it is.

_____________________________________________________________

I'm planning to soon get my omega-3 index tested. I first approached my GP who said no. After looking around a little, I've stumbled across Priceline Pharmacy's omega-3 index test for $70. This appears to be fairly cheap compared to some others in AU offering a similar service. Eg:
http://www.labtestsdirect.com.au/product/omega-3-index-testing/

There are also labs offering a full range of blood fat testing. But since the WHO says that only omega-3 & 6 fats are essential, I'm not really that interested in testing the rest. The index test should be enough of an indicator and if the result is low, I'll probably need to take another test to confirm the rise in level at a later time.

If anyone has any better or cheaper ways to test omega-3 index, then please post. Otherwise, I'll probably get the pharmacy test next week.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Mon Mar 12, 2018 7:09 pm

Although it says vegan, the below video has nothing to do with animal rights. I might emphasise he is talking about a well planned, whole food, plant based/only diet. If I was still raising kids I would get them some blood tests along the way to make sure everything is going well. I wasn't in control of what my children ate and consequently they are both obese.

I think the most telling point starts at 04:47.


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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:03 pm

Nobody wrote:I'm planning to soon get my omega-3 index tested. I first approached my GP who said no. After looking around a little, I've stumbled across Priceline Pharmacy's omega-3 index test for $70. This appears to be fairly cheap compared to some others in AU offering a similar service.


OK, so I got the initial test and I'm due to get the results back in a month from the US. When the results come in, Priceline will contact me. The deal linked above is actually better than it appeared to me initially. The package deal is $70. For that you get 2 omega-3 index tests and a bottle of krill oil. Their plan is you get the initial test, use up the bottle of krill oil, then get the second test later. For me, the initial test will tell me how effective the intake of about 3600 mg/d of ALA has been converted. If poor I'll order some algae derived DHA/EPA. Supplement for some months, then get the second test. If the result is good (unlikely) I'll forgo the supplements and second test. Then retest in a couple of years time. Either way as a basic test package it appears to be good value to me.
More on DHA for older men from Jack Norris.

A bit more on general testing for vegans by Jack Norris here. I've got test results for everything on the list but EPA/DHA so far. Everything I have results for should currently be OK as I'm supplementing B12, iodine, linseed for ALA and making sure I get enough sunshine. I only take zinc to inhibit my iron absorption due to hemochromatosis and I haven't really noticed a benefit from its supplementation. Some others have, so low dose zinc might also be worth trying.

Edit: I reread Jack's recommendations here which recommend only a DHA supplement of 200 - 300 mg/d for the elderly, no EPA as he says elsewhere
ALA is efficiently converted to EPA, but it may require large amounts of ALA to produce optimal amounts of DHA.

However, when I go looking to buy just DHA, most vegan DHA I've found has 200 mg or even less. So then I went looking for krill and fish oil based supplements to find typically that 100+ mg is a high concentrate version for DHA. When you start digging you find 50 mg is more typical from what I've seen so far of standard supplements.
Last edited by Nobody on Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:33 pm

OK, this is a bit of a learning curve for me. If my omega-3 index is low, it's easy to assume that will be DHA that will be low due to the greater difficulty in producing it from ALA as I quoted Jack Norris in the post above. I found the study below which just confirms Jack's findings.

Quoted from "Results":
DHA content increased only in groups consuming fish-oil capsules... The lack of elevated DHA in the flax oil groups strongly indicates that the conversion of ALA to DHA and subsequent incorporation into RBC phospholipids was very low over the 12-wk study.

https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/88/3/801/4649282

This would be especially worrying if the amount of flax oil was high, but the highest intake level was only 3.6 g. Obviously not enough to get a DHA conversion result. I take in 12 g/d of commercially ground brown flax seed, but I'm also older than the average participant in the study.

I also consulted Greger's "How Not to Die" book. He said:
The question, however, is whether the body can make enough for optimal brain health. Until we know more, I recommend taking 250 mg of pollutant-free long-chain omega-3s directly.

From the wording of the rest of the passage, it appears that means 250 mg per day of combined DHA + EPA. So typically that would look like about 160 g of DHA with 90 g of EPA. The krill oil bottle I was given as part of the test has 80 mg of DHA and 160 mg of EPA. So atypical of the algae derived supplements. It should be no surprise that I've already given away the krill oil.
The studies that Greger referenced:
https://s3.amazonaws.com/academia.edu.d ... status.pdf
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 1414000764

So far from the information above I think I'll initially get some DHA only in the anticipation that my reading (like most vegans) is going to be low and that any addition on the second test will therefore be due to increased DHA (which is my primary concern). Rather than guessing how much EPA might be involved.

As for this topic being contentious between the plant based leaders with Campbell & McDougall (saying it's a scam) on one side and Greger & Fuhrman on the other. I can't afford for Greger and Fuhrman to be proven correct in the future and I did nothing about it now. That's why I decided to act. Even acting now I can't help but think it's already 4.5 years too late. At least by placing my findings here I might help others to avoid this mistake, if it turns out to be one. If Campbell turns out to be correct, then I've only wasted some money. No great loss.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:23 am

OK, so I got 200 mg of DHA only in liquid form. 90 day supply. So there should be less problems with digestion and more problems with taste/smell. It was cheaper in this form, with less additives.
https://au.iherb.com/pr/Deva-Omega-3-DHA-Vegan-Lemon-Flavor-2-fl-oz-60-ml/15958

While I have the opportunity to test to see if there is much difference in direct supplementation of DHA, I'll take it. As the engineering saying goes, "one good test is worth a thousand expert opinions". Also I have strong doubts about my omega-3 index result coming back above 4.4, so I might as well start with supplementation.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:05 pm

Well I posted plenty of pro-DHA information lately, so I'd thought I'd post some information from the other side of the debate. Although Campbell address many claims, I didn't see anything about brain shrinkage and accelerated cognitive decline in older individuals.
https://www.drmcdougall.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=28413&start=15#p385752

McDougall's position, dated 2007.
https://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2007nl/aug/oils.htm

This newletter addresses DHA production (3rd study). But it is dated 2009.
https://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2009nl/sep/fav5.htm
In the absence of convincing evidence for the deleterious effects resulting from the lack of DHA from the diet of vegetarians, it must be concluded that needs for omega-3 fatty acids can be met by dietary ALA (alpha linolenic acid).”1 ALA is made by plants.

The problem is most of the studies that Greger cites in the link below ("SOURCES CITED" tab) are dated post 2009.
https://nutritionfacts.org/video/should-vegans-take-dha-to-preserve-brain-function/

It might be one of the reasons that some longevity study results favour pescetarians over vegans. Pescetarians maybe aren't DHA deficient into old age.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:04 pm


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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:56 am

Nobody wrote:OK, so I got 200 mg of DHA only in liquid form. 90 day supply. So there should be less problems with digestion and more problems with taste/smell. It was cheaper in this form, with less additives.
https://au.iherb.com/pr/Deva-Omega-3-DHA-Vegan-Lemon-Flavor-2-fl-oz-60-ml/15958

Delivered this morning, so 6 days for delivery. The sender's address is at Hillsdale (Sydney).

Tried it on some boiled sweet potato by itself. Some customer reviews say it has a repulsive/strong "fishy" taste and smell. For me it doesn't have a strong smell with the correct dose on food (but I wouldn't say I have sensitive smell) and although the flavor isn't pleasant, it is not strong enough to be repulsive (more smell than taste). So it can be easily masked with other flavors. I used some turmeric and black pepper after trying it by itself on the sweet potato. However I did notice that being an oil that the smell can hang around if dishes aren't rinsed well. I can see why those more sensitive to taste and/or smell would prefer the capsules, but it's OK for me so far.

The standard dose of 14 drops works out to < 1 ml. Such a tiny amount in reality, yet it still has double the dose of DHA (200 mg) than the krill oil (80 mg) at less than half the price of the premium krill.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:39 pm


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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby warthog1 » Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:27 pm

Nobody wrote:
Nobody wrote:OK, so I got 200 mg of DHA only in liquid form. 90 day supply. So there should be less problems with digestion and more problems with taste/smell. It was cheaper in this form, with less additives.
https://au.iherb.com/pr/Deva-Omega-3-DHA-Vegan-Lemon-Flavor-2-fl-oz-60-ml/15958

Delivered this morning, so 6 days for delivery. The sender's address is at Hillsdale (Sydney).

Tried it on some boiled sweet potato by itself. Some customer reviews say it has a repulsive/strong "fishy" taste and smell. For me it doesn't have a strong smell with the correct dose on food (but I wouldn't say I have sensitive smell) and although the flavor isn't pleasant, it is not strong enough to be repulsive (more smell than taste). So it can be easily masked with other flavors. I used some turmeric and black pepper after trying it by itself on the sweet potato. However I did notice that being an oil that the smell can hang around if dishes aren't rinsed well. I can see why those more sensitive to taste and/or smell would prefer the capsules, but it's OK for me so far.

The standard dose of 14 drops works out to < 1 ml. Such a tiny amount in reality, yet it still has double the dose of DHA (200 mg) than the krill oil (80 mg) at less than half the price of the premium krill.


Nice find.
iherb is really good :)

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Mon Apr 02, 2018 7:52 am

Sodium levels and cycling.

I've been having trouble rehydrating after rides which results in back and neck tighness. I think some of that is that I sweat out the sodium which then regulates my hydration level lower until my sodium levels slowly come back up. For me this appears to take more than 24 hours to happen as one of my blood tests earlier showed 23 hours after a ride and BZ thankfully highlighted in the past. My last blood test showed I was only marginally there for sodium level and that was 2 days or more after a ride. So I'll go off the SOS free part of my diet in adding a bit of iodised salt to my meals in the first 24 hours after a ride and see how that goes. I've been eating about 200g of celery after rides, but I don't think it's enough. In saying this I'm not trying to advocate that SOS free is a bad idea. Just that it may not work for everyone. I have particular absorption limitations/problems, as I've shown evidence of in previous posts for more than just sodium.

Obviously I'll be careful about avoiding iodine supplementation the days I'm using iodised salt, as from what I've read too much iodine can be as dangerous as too little.

Yes the salt should affect my microbiome (gut bacteria) in a bad way. So I'll keep that in mind and try not to shovel it on. But so does alcohol, animal products, too much fat and not enough fibre.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:01 am

I'm struggling to understand why a lack of sodium would specifically target your back and neck.

You mentioned that you need to re-hydrate after riding and that your sodium levels are low due to sweat. One option to consider is putting a little bit of salt or electrolyte in your water bottles. This may encourage you to drink a little more during the ride and will help with the sodium levels. BTW celery is yummy
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:04 pm

mikesbytes wrote:I'm struggling to understand why a lack of sodium would specifically target your back and neck.


I think that's possible Mike. I've had similar experiences and seen lots of people get crazy headaches and various back pains from dehydration on long rides. The headaches being triggered by inflammation in the upper 3 cervical facet joints. The inflammation due to low joint lubricant and joint compression.

The joints most effected on the bike from negative fluid balance will be those being compressed but not moving regularly through a significant range of motion....and that is the spine's facet jts definitely. The lower limb joints will get better fluid turnover due to the higher blood flow into their vicinity.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Baalzamon » Tue Apr 03, 2018 11:43 pm

Nobody, you should get a blood test checking sodium and potassium and see if it both low. Sodium if low will pull down potassium as well. Body will change potassium into sodium if it requires sodium.
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:04 am

Baalzamon wrote:Nobody, you should get a blood test checking sodium and potassium and see if it both low.

Potassium has tested OK while sodium tested marginal.

I took Mike's advice of sorts and added some iodised salt to my water after the ride. Probably < 0.25 g or about 1.5 turns on the Saxa salt grinder cap in total. In 1.5 L of water it was so dilute that I could barely taste it. But it appears to have helped.

I've probably always had a poor sense of thirst as an adult, but it's almost non-existent now. So I drink about 1 L before a ride, about 650 ml during the ride (about 1 hour, 20 minutes) and usually 1.5 to 2 L after a ride. Being a shift worker, unlike most I usually ride in the heat of the day at about 2pm. Works well in winter. Not so great in summer.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Baalzamon » Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:13 am

Good to hear that Nobody.
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:39 pm

McDougall again on specifically why he doesn't believe in SOS free despite many of his friends encouraging it. He is obviously oil free, but makes the argument for salt and sugar for his application. Which is primarily to get his sick patients off the western diet and off their meds. Although beneficial for him, IMO sugar is fairly worthless and as an addictive food, it's easier to steer clear of it rather than just regulate. But like most changes, it's something a beginner probably needs to substitute out of their diet slowly. Salt may have an application for cyclists with post ride hydration as I've expressed in a previous post above. But I still don't put it on food since I'm trying to avoid the tendency to overeat.

Nothing really new in the video. He still talks about sugar being burnt off and not getting converted to fat, which there have been some studies posted in this thread which disagree with that.

One observation that strikes me is how much he and his wife have aged in the past 4 to 5 years that I've been watching their videos. I wonder how much their no nuts & seeds diet might be contributing to this, due to not chasing the specific omega 3 & 6 fat levels, or the ideal 3 to 6 ratio as they age. Subjective I know. Has anyone else noticed this, or is it just me? Personally I'd rather they appear ageless since they are starch based eating advocates.
[I know it doesn't sound very nice mentioning the way they look. But he said himself that people who write diet books should have their appearance open to scrutiny. Fortunately it's unlikely he'll ever read or hear about me posting this.]


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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sat Apr 14, 2018 3:13 pm

McDougall and Klaper were both born in 1947.
Neither of them look particularly well preserved.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:55 am

A 50 yo only taking 12 g of ground brown flax seed per day got an omega-3 index of 5.79. I'm as surprised as anyone. Which just goes to show that the underlined text at the bottom of the test results below is false. According to a study posted on NutritionFacts.org, the minimum to prevent excessive brain shrinkage with age is an omega-3 index of 4.4. So what I was getting was adequate. I think I'll continue with the DHA supplementation at 200 mg/d to see how much difference it makes over the coming months with a second test. Then make an educated decision from that point on whether to, or how much to supplement DHA in the future. As shown in a previous post, EPA is more easily converted from ALA by the body, so not the focus for me.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:16 am

Although what I said above is true, in that (enough) ALA can be an effective substitute to the direct forms of EPA and DHA. Keep in mind that currently most plant only eaters either aren't getting enough ALA, and/or aren't converting it well enough.

This study surveyed the omega-3 index in long-term vegans and examined sex- and age-related differences. Assuming an omega-3 index of <4% to be undesirable, 64% of the cohort fell into this category, 27% were <3% and 1% was <2%. Thus, a substantial number of vegan subjects have low omega-3 status.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0261561414000764

The conversion problem could be due to genetic limitations from being older, male, and/or just getting too much omega-6 (LA) fat. The ideal ratio for conversion of omega 6 to 3 is considered to be 1:1. But to get enough LA, a more practical recommendation for 6 to 3 is considered to be 2:1. 4:1 has been a previous recommendation. But considering results some people are getting, trying to get closer to 1:1 should be beneficial if not taking DHA supplementation.
The WHO recommends 0.5% of calorie intake be ALA. I've tried to double that and so got > 3 g of ALA per day, according to my spreadsheet. That is with a typical omega 6 to 3 ratio of 2:1 or less (1.9:1 yesterday) which excludes the current DHA supplementation.

I hope this helps people to get more clarity in what is required to get an acceptable omega-3 index level of >4% from ALA intake.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:53 am

I like this video for Andrew's research and honesty. It flies in the face of the what the "sugar coated" promoters of plant based diets often say. Which may be fine for getting people to start it, but those people once started need to be educated properly.

The video gets back to the common theme of, you have to put in effort if you want to see good results. I'm currently getting about 675 mg/d of calcium (no supplements), protein is above 1 g/kg of BW and vit-D was 118 nmol/L (just from sunlight) on my last blood test.


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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:31 pm

Nobody wrote:I like this video for Andrew's research and honesty. It flies in the face of the what the "sugar coated" promoters of plant based diets often say. Which may be fine for getting people to start it, but those people once started need to be educated properly.

The video gets back to the common theme of, you have to put in effort if you want to see good results. ]


I think there's a serious problem in the literature re the identity of a 'vegan diet'.
There's no 'healthy vegan diet'.
As we are aware, vegan diet excludes animal produce, period.
Being vegan doesn't mean one is eating a nutritionally balanced and rich diet.

Meat eaters are correct in saying the standard American diet is not representative of the best in omnivorous eating.
Likewise, healthy plant based eating is not best represented by 'vegan diet'.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Wed Apr 25, 2018 3:03 pm

CKinnard wrote:Likewise, healthy plant based eating is not best represented by 'vegan diet'.

I suppose they are just dealing with who they can get for these studies. What's the best estimate for vegan eating as a percentage? 3 %? Of them, how many eat like me or better? 1 %? < 1 %? Then in if < 1%, how many of them are willing to play with their health to benefit some study? I know I'm not keen to do it. So until there's enough people who eat well and want to do studies, we're probably just going to have to extrapolate. Unless they want to pay people to eat well in some kind of controlled trial. But who's going to pay for that? I can only think of government health bodies at this stage.
Last edited by Nobody on Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Wed Apr 25, 2018 5:19 pm

Nobody wrote:
CKinnard wrote:Likewise, healthy plant based eating is not best represented by 'vegan diet'.

I suppose they are just dealing with who they can get for these studies. What's the best estimate for vegan eating as a percentage? 3 %? Of them, how many eat like me or better? 1 %? < 1 %? Then in if < 1%, how many of them are will to play with their health to benefit some study? I know I'm not keen to do it. So until there's enough people who eat well and want to do studies, we're probably just going to have to extrapolate. Unless they want to pay people to eat well in some kind of controlled trial. But who's going to pay for that? I can only think of government health bodies at this stage.


These definitions and what they represent, will remain a serious confounder of comparative nutrition long after you and I die Nobody.
All we can do is be crystal clear about what is being studied, and compared.

I've been reminded over the last week of how fragile human nature is, at least in the West.
Health consumers are happy to pay good money to buy into lying on a massage, chiropractic, or physio table on the promise of feeling a little better afterwards. But the thought of changing to a healthier diet stimulates visceral repulsion.
The enormity of this disconnect was further highlighted when I suggested to work colleagues we have a May healthy eating and weight loss challenge! The wall of psychic resistance was palpable!

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:50 pm

CKinnard wrote:These definitions and what they represent, will remain a serious confounder of comparative nutrition long after you and I die Nobody.

I hope you're wrong, but if the system keeps on going as it is, with this slow rate of change, then I can see you being right about this.

CKinnard wrote:All we can do is be crystal clear about what is being studied, and compared.

I haven't found studies to be overly clear about the specifics of what the subjects ate. Which sometimes can give a free kick to opponents of the way we eat. Like above, I doubt we'll see much change.

CKinnard wrote:I've been reminded over the last week of how fragile human nature is, at least in the West.
Health consumers are happy to pay good money to buy into lying on a massage, chiropractic, or physio table on the promise of feeling a little better afterwards. But the thought of changing to a healthier diet stimulates visceral repulsion.
The enormity of this disconnect was further highlighted when I suggested to work colleagues we have a May healthy eating and weight loss challenge! The wall of psychic resistance was palpable!

It's nice that you keep trying. I rarely bother as no-one is paying me to inflict other peoples' disdain onto myself.

You've heard me say this before, but maybe someone else might read this:
I've had people indicate that food is their greatest pleasure in life. When we ask them to change, we are working against many peoples' greatest addiction. On top of that we are seen to be insulting their chosen lifestyle, possibly the way they were raised and their weight/size. They will go to their grave eating the junk they've known and loved for decades, along with their meds. Some would literally rather die than change. Strange world...

As the saying goes, "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge." It's taken the food industries decades to indoctrinate the "the illusion of knowledge" via marketing. So that now animal protein (is there another kind?), calcium and iron are the most important elements of diet. Too bad that they are all toxic in large doses. And a multi-vitamin pill is taken as a cover-all for any other dietary indiscretions. Let's not worry about the fibre...

As you've also highlighted in the past. The above is only part of the puzzle. People are more lazy, time poor and stressed than previously. With a different value set and family structure to decades ago.

Too cynical? I don't think so.

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