Plant Based Diet Thread

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CKinnard
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Tue May 15, 2018 12:36 pm

march83 wrote:I've recently discovered the pomodoro technique. I allocate 20 minute blocks of work, followed by a rest period. Since taking it up, I get through surprisingly few 20 minute blocks of work each day, but my productivity is up. I've always known that inefficiencies were pretty high in my type of office work, but I'd never bothered to quantify it. Now I have, I'm amazed by how distracted I get.

Anyway, by putting a number on what is an acceptable level of productivity it's much easier to get to the end of the day and go home happy that I did enough, what I could, etc. Makes it easier to leave the work at the door when I leave. Then there's the additional skills to focus and ignore distraction.


Yeah I've done similar through the past, using blocks of time from 15 to 30 mins.
With the advent of computers for monitoring human productivity, there has been a drive to get more blood out of the stone of office and manual workers. I've seen mining companies and hospitals mess with 12 hour shifts.

I've heard that some administrative sectors have time productivity levels as low as 40%.
And when you see half a dozen guys standing around holes on the side of the road, you wonder whether 40% is generous.
In my work if I don't have a person in front of me, there's no income!
And small to medium retail is interesting in that 20-40% of annual revenue occurs in 17% of the year (november/december).

I think there's a statistical average output for sub categories of work and IQ. Trying to elevate average outputs beyond these results in longer term compromises generally invisible to low EQ bean counters and hypomanic profit-centric managers and business owners.

In addition, over the last 50 years there's been a significant erosion of healthy lifestyle choices, and all things that stem from those - intellectual and physical stamina, concentration span, self restraint, etc. Add to that diversity of culture, ethics, values, and economic and financial insecurities....and chronic stress takes a courageous and insightful mindset to evade!

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sun May 20, 2018 8:46 am

Promo for beans, nuts & seeds below. All usually useful. I've tried kidney and chickpeas before, but found them moreish and higher in net calorie density than their raw numbers suggest. Consequently they add weight for me. I also found them harder to digest. These days I eat about 200g of peas instead. I haven't tried lentils, so I may give them a go some time in the future.

I keep nuts & seeds down to what I need for nutritional requirements. The ideal omega 6 to 3 ratio is 1:1 for the conversion of ALA to essential EPA & DHA. Due to practical considerations of getting enough omega 6 LA, the ideal for a normal diet is therefore considered to be 2:1. Nuts generally are high in omega 6. Even walnuts (the lowest) is 4:1. So unless you are going to eat a lot of linseed to compensate, or take direct sources of DHA, lots of nuts may not be a good idea for keeping a low omega 6 to 3 ratio and therefore a higher omega 3 index (essential for brain and retina). Greger who is in this video takes and recommends direct sources of EPA & DHA. (There is more on omega 3 index in previous posts over the last 3 months).


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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Sun May 20, 2018 9:26 am

Recently I've been buying tins off various beans and using them to make Mexican style wraps. Quick, easy and inexpensive
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sun May 20, 2018 8:18 pm

I used to rely more so on canned beans, but now I buy beans dry bulk for an average $5/kg, soak overnight, and boil for 30 minutes.....then freeze them to use as required in dishes.

As the weather has been cooling, lunch recently has featured a cup of frozen beans, 3-5 cups of home frozen vege, and 1-2 cups of potato mash from last night's dinner....all into a 2 liter container to be microwave heated for lunch. I used to avoid frozen vege, but it is a very effective way to cut food waste.

On another note, I had a patient (early 50s alpha male electrician) this week with tennis elbow due to repetitive strain wiring and cable stripping dozens of new townhouses. He's an ex professional rugby league player and still keeps himself fit. Anyway, I said his arms should be pretty resistant to tennis elbow with his workout regimen and long history as an electrician. I then asked have you changed anything else about your lifestyle leading up to the onset of pain? He couldn't think of anything. Then I asked about hydration and diet, and specifically mentioned the importance of vegetables and salads for tissue healing..... bingo his eyes lit up, and that was all I needed to say. He said he got a bit of stress head a month ago and he started eating mostly frozen meals from the supermarket, whereas he usually home cooks balanced meals with lots of vege. A little manual therapy on his elbow and he was off home grateful he had an apparently quick and easy solution. He came back 5 days later and the pain was gone by all objective measures, though he also had a day off work and had used ice and heat as instructed.

Now compare and contrast him with my local supermarket check out chick who I have been chatting with for 5 years. She's a cheery rotund 40 something with a BMI to match, and sedentary as hell. She's also had tennis elbow for 5 mths now, and has been wearing a forearm brace all that time, though never seen me professionally. She has been in a world of hurt, and started to get frozen shoulder in the other arm. She finally got a cortisone shot into the elbow 4 days ago and has no pain at work. I've seen this before. As soon as there's no pain, they are back to overusing the forearm and wrist again (and eating the usual crap), and when the local anesthetic portion of the injection wears off 3-5 days later, the pain is back with a vengeance. As usual, all lifestyle inputs are critical to avoid and heal these chronic conditions. But some just are not ready to change their wayward habits, and prefer to keep dancing with the devil.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Tue May 22, 2018 7:01 pm

Saw a 50s something client this arvo on the way home from work.
To cut a long story short, she's had very red flag symptoms over the last 2-3 mths, and been to see everyone under the sun.
I have been at her for years to lose weight on a clean diet.
Her most trusted GP finally recommended a compounding pharmacist who prescribes intricate formulae to get people better. The clinic also has a nutritionist. Anyway, my friend showed me all the stuff she was recommended, and bought..... over $700 worth!!! I was floored.

After the GP sent her to the pharmacist, the GP then recommends a different diet (FODMAPS) to the pharmacist, even though there is no confirmation of IBS.

My friend phones up this arvo after a couple of weeks doing the pharmacist thing, then ending up baffled as to whether to follow the GP or pharmacist's advice. I have a laugh and say well I would tell you something different again and then you'd be worse off. Anyway, she wanted to see me so off I trundle. She's heard my spiel about TNH before, so I launch into a critique of the pharmacist's and GP's nutritional paradigms - how it is impossible to change one thing in the body with a drug or supplement (other systems are effected including regulatory feedback), how changing small things is less important than changing big things (like total Calories, and their quality). To cut a long story short, she saw the sense of what I was recommending, which is VLCD of legumes and vege as soup for 7 days....no other Calories, followed by a Blue Zones diet (she's not ready to do PBWF SOS).

She has to see the first week as a medical treatment, not food for hedonic pleasure. This is the readiest I've seen her in the 15 years I've recommended she go this path. So I hope she follows through. I am so sure it will largely resolve the issues she has paid 10s of 1000s for passive treatment of over that time.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Tue May 22, 2018 9:44 pm

What's the Blue Zones diet?
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Wed May 23, 2018 10:02 am

mikesbytes wrote:What's the Blue Zones diet?


"a Blue Zones diet"

Mostly WFPB, but discretion for animal bits up to 300g a week.
And I meant to say the legume and vege VLCD phase will draw out as much as 8 weeks (not 1 week), the goal being to relatively rest her gut and lose visceral fat.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Wed May 23, 2018 1:40 pm

Thanks CK, does it also include dairy? or is that part of the 300gms?
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Wed May 23, 2018 8:22 pm

mikesbytes wrote:Thanks CK, does it also include dairy? or is that part of the 300gms?


preferably not dairy or eggs, though people are not robots, and you have to meet them half way. If I had an excess of clients in this field, I'd flick the half committed to someone else.

The idea is to give the body relative rest.
I'd prefer she goes on 4 weeks of vege broth, or 2nd choice vege soup, 3rd choice legume and vege soup.
She is just not psychologically ready to withdraw from the world with a near fast, and give her mind and body time to recreate, despite signs of life threatening CNS pathology (most likely TIAs).

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby thatmdee » Sat May 26, 2018 10:08 am

I was wondering if anyone has some good suggestions on books covering nutrition?

I'm on a vegan diet, and after a primer on nutrition.. I.e. starting from scratch. The book doesn't necessarily need to cover plant-based nutrition, just nutrition in general. I'd like something that's not too textbook heavy and in depth, but that covers the essentials and delves into the science a little bit. It would be nice to read up on nutrition enough such that I can start formulating my own meal plan and use Cronometer to track things properly knowing what I'm tracking and why (rather than just blindly following someone else's plan).

Something which also covers fuelling and refuelling the body adequately for exercise (no particular slant towards endurance or strength training) would also be good. I've got The Endurance Diet by Matt Fitzgerald (after it was recommended on the TrainerRoad podcast), but wasn't sure if this was the best place to start, preferring something that's a little more well rounded on nutrition in general.

Thanks

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sat May 26, 2018 11:24 am

thatmdee wrote:I was wondering if anyone has some good suggestions on books covering nutrition?

I'm on a vegan diet, and after a primer on nutrition.. I.e. starting from scratch.

Thanks


I wouldn't recommend a general nutrition textbook, as they are usually many years behind the latest research, and are conservatively entrenched in big slow moving consensus. If you want to go that route, I'd suggest you research which university closest to you offers a dietitians degree, and see if you can find a book list for it, or better still go to the university library for that degree, and ask the librarian which are the recommended textbooks. Then sit down and skim a few in the library.
Keep in mind getting bogged down in the details of one metabolic pathway or another (as these texts focus on) is not as important as getting the whole diet balanced with fresh produce.

If you want to stay on the vegan or WFPB path, here's my top two recommendations:

http://www.brendadavisrd.com/books/ Brenda has been a highly respected vegan dietitian authority for decades
https://nutritionfacts.org/book/ Michael Greger is a MD (physician) behind the respected Nutrition Facts website. He's a long term vegan, though I would not rate him as highly as Brenda.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sat May 26, 2018 12:01 pm


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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sat May 26, 2018 9:09 pm

the evolving B12 supplementation picture


Jack Norris
http://jacknorrisrd.com/methyl-vs-cyano-b12/
https://veganhealth.org/vitamin-b12/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5312744/
Comparative Bioavailability and Utilization of Particular Forms of B12 Supplements With Potential to Mitigate B12-related Genetic Polymorphisms

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4692085/
Cobalamin coenzyme forms are not likely to be superior to cyano- and hydroxyl-cobalamin in prevention or treatment of cobalamin deficiency

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sat May 26, 2018 11:49 pm

CKinnard wrote:the evolving B12 supplementation picture...

Thanks for the info. As someone who has tested at a low level and got toe tingling (at 3 times per week of 1000 mcg IIRC) I take 1000 mcg daily of methyl. At about 8 cents per dose, it's cheap enough and doesn't get much cheaper at lower doses. Sure, cyano is cheaper, but then it's cyano. Compared to the cost of DHA supplementation, most B12 forms are very cheap.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Tue May 29, 2018 4:21 pm

OK, so I went to the specialist today and got my blood tests for haemochromatosis. It appears I'm losing the battle to avoid getting bled every 6 months. I've been taking 15mg of zinc citrate, but it looks like I need to increase my cycling frequency and maybe my calcium intake if I'm going to get my ferritin down further. The specialist was happy with my results and placed me on permanent 6 monthly bleeds. But my goal should be to reduce the level between bleeds to a minimum as a ferritin over 50 is a cancer risk. Ideally I'd like to get it back around 30, but that's probably optimistic. By the way, a good symptom of haemo is a saturation over 45. As you can see in the red box, mine is very high. Probably the highest I've seen it. Having said that, my ferritin is fairly typical of the average vegan, or person without cancer as per video below.
https://youtu.be/Re9piRz9ny8?t=1m24s

Another highlight for me is a relatively low white blood cell count (WCC) of 6, which is lower than my typical 7 and has been so for the past 6 months. This is good because my mother had leukaemia and the first symptom I was told of was high WCC. When I was on a standard diet WCC used to be about 9.

Image

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Tue May 29, 2018 7:40 pm


CKinnard
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Tue May 29, 2018 10:52 pm

Nobody wrote:,,


I guess fried white rice isn't an intact whole grain then!! :o

Brenda is a bit wooden as a presenter, but she's spent her life trying to bring scientific clarity to a fuzzy subject.
I've listened to her presentations for hours and have never been able to find fault with what she says.
And she was sticking her neck out decades ago on veganism.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:04 pm

Haemochromatosis bleed at hospital today. Blood pressure taken before bleed at hospital on their machine was 109/70. Getting closer to the middle of normal in the chart below.
http://www.bloodpressureuk.org/BloodPre ... ssurechart

I told the nurse I wasn't planning on coming back, but then I said that 6 months ago too. :oops: This time I'm going to also supplement calcium (in addition to zinc). Not something I'd advise others to do on a WFPB. But I'm going to take on the increased heart attack risk to try to offset the increased iron risk in my case. Obviously taking with food (in powder form) in small amounts. Probably going to aim for about 300 mg/d.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Tue Jun 05, 2018 6:00 pm

Nobody wrote:Haemochromatosis bleed at hospital today. Blood pressure taken before bleed at hospital on their machine was 109/70. Getting closer to the middle of normal in the chart below.
http://www.bloodpressureuk.org/BloodPre ... ssurechart

I told the nurse I wasn't planning on coming back, but then I said that 6 months ago too. :oops: This time I'm going to also supplement calcium (in addition to zinc). Not something I'd advise others to do on a WFPB. But I'm going to take on the increased heart attack risk to try to offset the increased iron risk in my case. Obviously taking with food (in powder form) in small amounts. Probably going to aim for about 300 mg/d.


Have you thought of drinking tea, green tea, or coffee with meals?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11029010
And revisiting
- phytate rich foods = legumes and nuts
- oxalates = beetroot, rhubarb, okra, sweet potato

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:31 pm

nobody, if you hadn't done all that work to use food to fix (reduce) the issues then the problem would of been a lot worse
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:42 pm

Thanks for the help.

CKinnard wrote:Have you thought of drinking tea, green tea, or coffee with meals?

Peppermint tea, yes. Which is supposed to have an effect. I won't drink green tea, tea or coffee. Coffee (even decaf) due to it raises cholesterol. Tea and green tea because they have caffeine and I don't want the ups and downs associated with them. I found green tea can also have a laxative effect.

CKinnard wrote:And revisiting
- phytate rich foods = legumes and nuts

200 grams per day of green peas. Other legumes give me stomach trouble and add weight for me. Nuts also add weight for me, but I'm currently eating about 7 to 11 grams of Brasil nuts a day.

CKinnard wrote:- oxalates = beetroot, rhubarb, okra, sweet potato

Was eating sweet potato over the last 6 months. I've just gone back to potato over winter.

I have just started restricting tomato paste again because it's high in iron and I suspect due to its form, highly absorbable.

I've tried a number of foods over the years. The only changes that appeared to work were zinc supplements with more cycling. That is why I think calcium may work. That and WH1 posted about someone else who had success with supplementing competing minerals. The danger is becoming copper deficient. But I'm reluctant to supplement copper as it's one of the two (along with iron) that end up in the amyloid plaques of the brain. Barnard wrote about this in his book "Power Foods for the Brain".

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:45 pm

mikesbytes wrote:Nobody, if you hadn't done all that work to use food to fix (reduce) the issues then the problem would have been a lot worse

True, I should keep that in mind. Thanks for the reminder. :)

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Fri Jun 08, 2018 11:17 am

A post in the Diet Thread reminded me that I should be pointing people in direction of Jeff Novick for weight loss advice, since it's his diet advice I mainly follow. With some input from "CKinnard" of these forums (thanks CK :) ). My results of following this advice as a 50 yo male are here, showing I can be whatever healthy weight I choose, without concentrating on exercise. While still getting all the nutrition that bodies like the WHO believe I require.

The below links are about Jeff and his advice:

Home page
A common sense approach to sound nutrition
Maximizing Weight Loss - How to fine tune calorie density
Jeff's section on McDougall's forum
Forum Hot Topics

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:53 pm

Placing this one here because people that eat this way are more likely to look at supplementation.



I currently take B12 because it's necessary for vegans and arguably most over 50 yo (I'm both). Iodine because it appears I get little from my diet and it's very cheap anyway. DHA because I'm trying to move my tested omega-3 index from ~6 (OK, but marginal) to ~8 (lower end ideal) for long term brain and retina health. This one is also age related as older people process ALA poorly. Calcium and zinc as it competes with iron absorption for my haemo (genetic iron accumulation) problem. Calcium is also a bit of long term insurance. I may look at selenium if I give up Brazil nuts because Cronometer says I'm low in that without the nuts. According to tests I get enough vit-D (sunlight), but that is another possible problem for vegans.

Of course if you put the standard western diet into Cronometer, there will most likely be a lot more deficiencies. But people that eat that way usually don't know about it, or care.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:00 pm

Nobody wrote:Placing this one here because people that eat this way are more likely to look at supplementation.


I wouldn't be too quick to write off supps overall based on studies done to date.
I can't imagine most studies are exhaustive in their measures.

After talking to Amanda last week, I think supplementation should be investigated a lot more carefully. (B12's effect on neural tube defects)
Food production and soil qualities and fertilizers have all gone through profound changes in the last 60 years.
I cannot imagine your average vege have as much nutrition as back then, especially if flavor and picking unripe are any guide.

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