Plant Based Diet Thread

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sat Nov 25, 2017 9:22 pm

CKinnard wrote:Nobody, I'd put real money on this poster being a paid social media advertising crony...

Still a good oportunity to teach those who aren't going to read the previous 34 pages. :)

As you know, every man and his dog has a "balanced diet" with moderation. But most are still suffering through their final decades, having to be on various medications. But hardly anyone seems to worry about it, because in AU, "she'll be right mate".

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:49 am

Nobody wrote:
CKinnard wrote:Nobody, I'd put real money on this poster being a paid social media advertising crony...

Still a good oportunity to teach those who aren't going to read the previous 34 pages. :)

As you know, every man and his dog has a "balanced diet" with moderation. But most are still suffering through their final decades, having to be on various medications. But hardly anyone seems to worry about it, because in AU, "she'll be right mate".


Having taken my Mum to Auckland hospital for her appointment during the week, I got the impression that most of the hospital's customers hadn't quite got the balance correct, more so that what I've observed at other hospitals. That hospital dealt with the heart issues in the region and I couldn't help but think that explained what I saw.
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sun Nov 26, 2017 5:27 pm

mikesbytes wrote:Having taken my Mum to Auckland hospital for her appointment during the week, I got the impression that most of the hospital's customers hadn't quite got the balance correct, more so that what I've observed at other hospitals. That hospital dealt with the heart issues in the region and I couldn't help but think that explained what I saw.


The world's leaders in gout are apparently New Zealanders these days, according to a group of rheumies I know.
It's due to the extreme levels of obesity among Maoris and many Pacific Islanders living there.
Diabetes is also putting this group on the world stage.
And we should all know by now that atherosclerosis is caused by the unhappy triad of insulin resistance, oxidative stress, and inflammation which are all accelerated with obesity.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Lukeyboy » Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:32 pm

Burgers are made from cows. Cows eat grass. Grass are near plants. Ipso fatso. Heart attack.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:45 pm

Lukeyboy wrote:Burgers are made from cows. Cows eat grass. Grass are near plants. Ipso fatso. Heart attack.


Cow feces are also made from grass.
next

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Lukeyboy » Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:25 pm

And we are all made up of tiny little atoms :lol: :lol:

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby User Name » Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:45 am

Anecdote:

I spoke to an elderly neighbour today as he was potting around his front yard, pulling out weeds.
I don't know him at all, but I really wanted some goss' about all the houses around him being demolished, so I said hello and chatted for a few minutes.

I had little idea how old is was, but it turns out he's 96 (!!), and reckons his secret is eating porridge every morning.

They ya go. Tell all ya friends :D

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:36 pm

Lukeyboy wrote:And we are all made up of tiny little atoms :lol: :lol:


as is a dense lump of wood.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:42 pm

User Name wrote:Anecdote:

I spoke to an elderly neighbour today as he was potting around his front yard, pulling out weeds.
I don't know him at all, but I really wanted some goss' about all the houses around him being demolished, so I said hello and chatted for a few minutes.

I had little idea how old is was, but it turns out he's 96 (!!), and reckons his secret is eating porridge every morning.

They ya go. Tell all ya friends :D


here's another anecdote
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/weird-news/woman-aged-112-says-secret-7246844

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Mon Nov 27, 2017 5:36 pm

mikesbytes wrote:
Nobody wrote:...As you know, every man and his dog has a "balanced diet" with moderation. But most are still suffering through their final decades, having to be on various medications...


...I got the impression that most of the hospital's customers hadn't quite got the balance correct...

And that's just making an assessment from what you saw. As well all know, you can look good on the outside but be a mess on the inside.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Lukeyboy » Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:26 am

CKinnard wrote:
Lukeyboy wrote:And we are all made up of tiny little atoms :lol: :lol:


as is a dense lump of wood.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:53 pm

found out today a patient I've known for 15 years had a STEMI (QAS wrongly called it in as LBBB)
his wife was told he could be up for a quadruple cabbage overnight.
the devil may care bravado and rabbit food responses Ive know him for in that time is no doubt a little dampened tonight.
will be a while before he gets back on his beloved Pini.

And don't expect your ambos or docs to confidently call it right, or fix what a rubbish diet does over many decades.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:20 pm

CKinnard wrote:found out today a patient I've known for 15 years had a STEMI...rabbit food responses...

Reminds me of the guy at my work who has had a quadruple, but still manages to eat a pie daily. Some Most people don't care what tomorrow brings as long as they get their addictive food fix. While convincing themselves that their diet is balanced and moderate. They can't be convinced and it's a waste of time and effort to try to help them. They don't want to believe and/or don't care enough to change. The addiction has too much of a grip on them.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:56 am

Food psychology, its the topic that interests me as I see it as the most difficult part of nutrition. Its one thing to know what to eat and another to stick to that plan, or thereabouts.

I've seen success stories, where people have turned themselves around after heart issues (blockages), for example a 68 year old who followed the advice after a heart issue, which entailed nutritional restrictions a moderate increase in exercise. He dropped from 92Kg to 76Kg and has maintained that. Hasn't had any heart issues since.
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:22 am

mikesbytes wrote:Food psychology, its the topic that interests me as I see it as the most difficult part of nutrition.

I've come to the acceptance that in a country that is full of poor nutrition, one has to be a certain personality to succeed with optimal nutrition. One has to act with a great deal of separation from others. Which most people can't do.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:59 pm

Nobody wrote:
mikesbytes wrote:Food psychology, its the topic that interests me as I see it as the most difficult part of nutrition.

I've come to the acceptance that in a country that is full of poor nutrition, one has to be a certain personality to succeed with optimal nutrition. One has to act with a great deal of separation from others. Which most people can't do.


I attended a 'nutrition for healing' workshop last night by the most high profile Brisbane sports dietitian group.
Didn't hear anything I didn't know.
And they neglected the vegan athlete's approach very much, sadly.

Nobody, when you talk about 'a great deal of separation', I think you are right....and I think it is analogous to being in a non mainstream religion. Many will think you are odd. And like mindeds will become more important to you.

On this note, there were three 20 something respectable lads at the event last night who are getting right into PBWF diet.
They knew all about True North, McDougall, and Esselstyn, and were very eager to hear more from me about my time there.
It was great to meet 3 males so intelligently into health. Don't think I've ever struck that before.... 80% of the audience last night were slim athletic women, wiho came across decidedly aloof.
The three lads were anything but.

Am having a meeting with one of Brisbane's largest Medical practices this week regarding more efficient clinical outcomes.
Should be interesting. No doubt though initiatives will have to return a profit, though I am confident the private sector will do it cheaper than the public.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:04 pm

CKinnard wrote:
Nobody wrote:
mikesbytes wrote:Food psychology, its the topic that interests me as I see it as the most difficult part of nutrition.

I've come to the acceptance that in a country that is full of poor nutrition, one has to be a certain personality to succeed with optimal nutrition. One has to act with a great deal of separation from others. Which most people can't do.


I attended a 'nutrition for healing' workshop last night...there were three 20 something respectable lads at the event last night who are getting right into PBWF diet...Don't think I've ever struck that before....

Hopefully, in the future, such sightings will be less rare as the word gets out.

CKinnard wrote:80% of the audience last night were slim athletic women...

Not overly surprising since generally women are more interested in diet. I remember reading somewhere that their attitude toward diet had more to do with women living longer than any genetic differences.

CKinnard wrote:Am having a meeting with one of Brisbane's largest Medical practices this week regarding more efficient clinical outcomes.
Should be interesting. No doubt though initiatives will have to return a profit, though I am confident the private sector will do it cheaper than the public.

Another possible teaching/coaching gig for you, or something else?

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:53 pm

Nobody wrote:Another possible teaching/coaching gig for you, or something else?


Yes it's a likely gig - integrated ancillary health service delivery.
The ideal is to test and refine in the first practice, then offer it out as a turnkey system to others....so systems dev't, employee sourcing and training.

It's very much about integrating then delivering psych, nutrition, and physical activity advice in a more palatable manner, where all health care providers are on the same page and able to better monitor patient compliance/problems.

Australia will be following the 'shared medical appointment' model of the US and Europe within a few years, and this is a lead in to that.
https://www.racgp.org.au/afp/2014/march ... ointments/
Further, larger med clinics (10+ GPs) benefit from having in-house ancillary, as it increases patient stickiness.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:18 pm

CKinnard wrote:...Australia will be following the 'shared medical appointment' model of the US and Europe within a few years, and this is a lead in to that.
https://www.racgp.org.au/afp/2014/march ... ntments/...

Sounds like a good idea. I can only assume it isn't well utilised in the US, or hasn't been available for long.

__________________________________________________________

Got bled today, since my specialist has me doing this 6 monthly now. Blood pressure was 111/71 on the auto machine at the hospital before bleeding. I was hydrated AFAIK. If that's accurate, the systolic is the lowest I've seen it. My systolic BP goal has been to get to 110. Considering my life up to 4 years ago, I should be happy with this.

Image
http://www.bloodpressureuk.org/BloodPre ... ssurechart

It's time I get BP checked again at the GP, along with some more general blood tests. But I will have to wait until next year now as I have to wait 3 weeks for recovery.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:13 pm

Nobody wrote:It's time I get BP checked again at the GP, along with some more general blood tests. But I will have to wait until next year now as I have to wait 3 weeks for recovery.


110/70 is the new optimal BP.
I'd be very happy with your result, especially in the middle of a work day.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Thoglette » Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:59 am

I'm just trying (badly) to keep my BP in less than six digits. Too much salt I'm sure.

Meanwhile, over at The Conversation another mostly-content-free op-ed.
Vegetarian diets and health: the voice of science needs to be heard
François Mariotti Professeur de Nutrition – Professor of Nutrition, Agro ParisTech – Université Paris-Saclay wrote:Are vegetarian diets the key to healthy aging, or could they be a risk to those who adopt them? These questions are a source of confusion for the general public, and for many scientists too. Why? Nutrition is a complex discipline and it struggles to provide simple answers to issues as broad as the relationships between a range of dietary practices and health outcomes. Are vegetarian diets good or bad? Can we tweet the answer in 140 characters or less?
...
One such shortcut is “just eat less meat and other animal products”. No. First, there is no “just do it” in the complex field of nutrition. Second, if you eat less of one thing, you will eat more of something else. And if you simply eat more of what now constitutes your diet, it is very unlikely that this will lead you in the right direction. For example, a marked reduction in animal-product consumption must be accompanied by an increase in protein-rich plant foods, such as legumes. Another shortcut is “Just eat plant-based foods”. But a diet made up of chips, ketchup, sodas, sugar-packed breakfast cereals and processed white bread covered with hazelnut spread is predominantly plant-based. Indeed, these foods could even be labelled “vegan”. But it’s self-evident that such a diet shouldn’t be adopted, particularly given that it will not be associated with any health benefits.


Plus one on diabetes from The Guardian
Radical diet can reverse type 2 diabetes, new study shows

Sarah Boseley Health editor wrote:Low-calorie diet caused remission in 90% of trial patients who lost 15kg or more, even those who had been diabetic for six years, say researchers
Stop handing them the stick! - Dave Moulton
"People are worthy of respect, ideas are not." Peter Ellerton, UQ

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:19 pm

Thoglette wrote:Plus one on diabetes from The Guardian
Radical diet can reverse type 2 diabetes, new study shows

Sarah Boseley Health editor wrote:Low-calorie diet caused remission in 90% of trial patients who lost 15kg or more, even those who had been diabetic for six years, say researchers


it's old news to those familiar with the literature, which must exclude the authors of this study!
Any significant weight loss results in reduced insulin resistance.
IR accelerates once one's fat cells begin fat spill over, unable to store more fat (or glucose as fat). Additional glucose goes to the liver to be converted to fat, and with the additional dietary fat gets stored ectopically in the liver and pancreas, and floating around in the blood. Pancreatic function and insulin sensitivity is gummed up by the ectopic fat load.
However, once one begins fasting, or relative fasting as via a very low calorie diet (<800Cals for most), then ectopic fat is quickly cleared, and insulin sensitivity is quick to return.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:51 pm

Thoglette wrote:I'm just trying (badly) to keep my BP in less than six digits. Too much salt I'm sure.

I saw an article on TV (of all places) recently in which they said salt was linked with atherosclerosis by too much salt removing certain bacteria types in the microbiom. McDougall makes the claim that salt will make only a small difference in the short term, where Greger has videos (with studies) showing a link to higher blood pressure over the long term. McDougall says that the problem of high blood pressure is primarily caused from the consumption of animal products and a high fat diet. Not only with the implication of atherosclerosis, but also a higher fat diet causing a more viscus blood flow. I believe that both a high fat, inflammatory diet and salt are to blame. Consequently I avoid both. I eat celery when I want to get more sodium intake after a ride.
https://www.drmcdougall.com/health/education/health-science/hot-topics/medical-topics/hypertension/
https://nutritionfacts.org/topics/salt/

Thoglette wrote:Meanwhile, over at The Conversation another mostly-content-free op-ed.
Vegetarian diets and health: the voice of science needs to be heard


Seems like an advert for a new book. Which at 900 pages appears to be like making the simple, complex. And also an exercise in reductionism.

François Mariotti wrote:On the other hand, a diverse and predominantly plant-based diet made up of fruits and vegetables, legumes, nuts, seeds and whole grains and rich in raw products will be good for you.

Yay. At least he got this bit correct.

François Mariotti wrote:From a nutritional point of view, the elimination of animal products is not useful in and of itself, and indeed complicates the situation because they can supply important nutrients.

Yes, they can supply important nutrients. However their net value is negative for a variety of reasons which have been cited in numerous previous posts. Aside from B12, there is nothing animal products supply that can't be obtained from plant foods and sunlight. Also 90% of the world's production of B12 goes to farm animals. So most people are getting their B12 indirectly from vitamin manufacturers anyway.

_____________________________________________________________

The above just reminded me that when I visited my almost 90 yo father today, I told him about my blood pressure yesterday. So he got out his blood pressure meter. I think he wanted to test if I was exaggerating. Anyway the meter came back with 109/69. So I had a bit of an internal chuckle about it. Although haemochromatosis, leukaemia and stroke appear to run in my family, high blood pressure doesn't appear to as my father's systolic BP was 126. That was after a breakfast of sausages, bacon, eggs and tomatoes! :shock:

Also the hospital marked my file as "vegan". I'd prefer I wasn't labelled as I don't necessarily want to spend the entire procedure explaining to each nurse my dietary situation, who probably doesn't really want to listen. I'm OK typing away about it here. But I'm not that keen on trying to relay a large amount of information verbally in a short amount of time. I'm too introverted to really enjoy it. Hopefully if I get my diet and supplementation correct, I won't be back there again for a year or more.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:39 am

In my early 20s my blood pressure was 110/90 but by my late 20s the figure had improved and has been good ever since. I don't know why I had that figure and I don't know why it fixed itself.

Salt is tasty and very cheap, so it gets piled into manufactured foods, even bread and that makes it that bit more difficult for those trying to cut back on salt intake

Most of the people I have known who had high blood pressure were obese or heading that way. Could be due to high consumption of manufactured foods resulting in high salt consumption or due to the weight itself. I don't know I haven't studied it
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:36 am

Hypertension has a lot to do with not only sodium but potassium.
Most people get too much sodium and too little potassium (due to not eating enough vege).

Potassium helps clear excess sodium in the kidneys.
If you continued to take a high level of sodium, and increased your vegetable intake, the additional potassium would lower sodium AND BP.

Potassium also helps lower BP via keeping vessels relaxed = dilated.

Much of the demonization of sodium is actually due to low potassium.
About 7 years ago, this science cleared the way for electrolyte drink manufacturers to start producing higher sodium sports drinks, more aligned with the sodium concentration of sweat.

Those who engage in lots of endurance activity such as cyclists, need to keep in mind excess sodium leaches calcium out of bones at a higher rate...so there is a link between osteoporosis and high sodium intake. But once again, this rate would be lowered if healthy potassium intake via increased vegetables.

If there is one nutritional change Westerners could make, it would be to increase vegetables to >5 cups a day. But don't expect to hear about this from your GP.

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