Plant Based Diet Thread

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CKinnard
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sat Jan 27, 2018 2:07 pm

February 2010 Issue

Vegetarian’s Challenge — Optimizing Essential Fatty Acid Status
By Brenda Davis, RD
Today’s Dietitian
Vol. 12 No. 2 P. 22

http://www.todaysdietitian.com/newarchi ... 0p22.shtml

Nobody
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:46 pm

Thanks for posting the link.
I had a look at it and believe I'm getting enough ALA & LA, being about 3.5g of ALA and 7g of LA. My concern is my conversion rate as an older male. I just had another look at the video below which shows that 4.4% is necessary to prevent increased brain loss. Which, if anything, shows that even a well planned WFPB diet (with B12) still may not be an ideal diet for some without EPA/DHA supplementation. Knowing if you're one of them requires testing. Have you had your omega-3 index tested?

https://nutritionfacts.org/video/should-vegans-take-dha-to-preserve-brain-function/

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sat Jan 27, 2018 8:43 pm

No haven't had n-3 tested. I used to eat ~300g of salmon a month mostly for this issue.

But this year, I haven't felt like eating any flesh, so haven't.
In about 2 mths, I'm going to get comprehensive panels done for lots of stuff....just want to get my bodyfat down more. I may go back to TNH for a few weeks for a fast, so might get the tests done there. THey are happy to do anything as long as you pay for it. we had test kits for all sorts of stuff in house (helicobacter pylori, microbiome analysis). Actually, when there next, I must bring it to their attention to do a 5 hour insulin challenge. The LCHF ppl think about 70% of the USA is insulin resistant, and I tend to agree.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:25 pm

So where are the WFPB people getting their iodine from?

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:55 pm

From nothing in particular. Since more iodine appears to give more problems, according to the video below.


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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby march83 » Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:42 am

My multivitamin has some. On the odd occasion I add salt to something I use iodised salt. I eat sushi (vegan options obviously) every week or 2 and that contains a decent amount of seaweed. Cronometer tells me that my levels are OK not accounting for the salt and the irregular sushi consumption.
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:03 am

Nobody wrote:From nothing in particular. Since more iodine appears to give more problems, according to the video below.


hmmm. I wish it was as simple as Mic concludes. though the following reveal there is a genuine high rate of iodine deficiency in vegans and non vegans....and it is a serious issue for pregnant women due to it seriously compromising foetal neural dev't, in addition to the thyroid issue.

Michael Greger's How Not to Die recommends 4 supplements for WFPB
- B12
- Vit. D (if not able to get appropriate sun exposure)
- Iodine
- Omega 3

I don't think this is an indication that a vegan like diet is unnatural. It is more to do with how far from natural food production has become.


Australian scenario
https://www.mja.com.au/journal/2010/193 ... al-thyroid
https://www.mja.com.au/journal/2011/194 ... tification
ashequr rahman is a key iodine researcher in Victoria
https://www.researchgate.net/scientific ... qur_Rahman
http://www.aimedjournal.com/article/S2212-9588(15)00122-6/fulltext
http://www.smh.com.au//breaking-news-national/iodine-deficiency-dumbing-down-australia-20101031-178mr.html

Others
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/articl ... ne.0148235
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26840251
http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(11)60693-4/fulltext
https://www.karger.com/Article/PDF/70483
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21613354
https://www.degruyter.com/view/j/jpem.2 ... 7-0082.xml
https://nutritionj.biomedcentral.com/ar ... 015-0103-3
https://search.proquest.com/openview/ef ... &cbl=36750
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals ... CB7FF6BFA0
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4991921/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5466942/
http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10 ... .2014.0071

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:13 am

CKinnard wrote:Michael Greger's How Not to Die recommends 4 supplements for WFPB
- B12
- Vit. D (if not able to get appropriate sun exposure)
- Iodine
- Omega 3

Greger is a self confessed science nerd and is considered to be outside the mainstream along with Fuhrman. By saying that, I'm not saying that either of them are wrong. In the long run they could turn out to be the leaders. But they could both be accused of being on the reductionist side. There are plenty of PB eaters which are still doing OK without their advice.

- B12 is obviously essential unless you're drinking enough river water. I take 1000 mcg/d of methyl. Greger recommends cyano.

- Vit D is highly debatable on levels required. I believe the sun is essential for good health. Not for just Vit-D, but also for the secondary immune response. I live at a -33.8 degree latitude. 33 degrees is considered the cutoff for enough winter sun exposure, so I make a point of getting more when I can year round. I'm about to get my vit-D checked again. I'll probably never take a supplement while living in Sydney.

- Iodine is difficult to recommend as it's so easy to get wrong. So - like with most micronutrients - unless one has deficiency symptoms...
I'm due to get tested again for TSH. But don't consider it a very good test, even though I test OK.

- Omega-3. There is some evidence that lack of omega-3 can be long term damaging. That is why I want to get tested. I suspect I may be a low converter. But if I was a young woman, I'd just make sure I get enough ALA.

CKinnard wrote:I don't think this is an indication that a vegan like diet is unnatural. It is more to do with how far from natural food production has become.

And our genetic errors/variances. A good example is I clearly don't have an iron deficiency and I'm never likely to.

_____________________________________________________________

A long video, but lots of papers/information shown.


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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:23 am

march83 wrote:Cronometer tells me that my levels are OK not accounting for the salt and the irregular sushi consumption.

Are you sure it was Cronometer, or do you have the paid version? I'm looking at Cronometer at the moment and can't see iodine listed.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby march83 » Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:56 am

Paid version. And I added my multivitamin as a custom food.
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:58 am

An article I found yesterday, that I think covers WFPB guidance well.
It's a US Physicians' guide to pros/cons of WFPB, supplementation, and how to guide a patient.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4991921/

Re Greger, iodine supplementation appears a pretty ubiquitous recommendation I have found since digging deeply.
I communicated with Amanda Benham last week about it, and she put me onto the research showing it is a growing problem in Oz, and she now recommends special attention for vegan, such as taking sea vegetables. She is particularly strong on this for young women wanting kids as their need is much higher.

Brenda Davis and Jack Norris are very respected long term vegan dietitians, and also recommend supps, or at least doing sea veg.

Nevertheless, I appreciate the picture is blurred re measurement of iodine deficiency.
There are two methods to measure that I am aware of:
- urinary iodine concentration, which only offers an acute insight into dietary adequacy.
- elevated TSH levels, which as Mic and you have noted is confounded by systemic and local thyroid inflammatory states. And elevated TSH has been shown to normalize as overweight people lose fat, and eat a healthier diet.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:25 pm

CKinnard wrote:Michael Greger's How Not to Die recommends 4 supplements for WFPB
- B12
- Vit. D (if not able to get appropriate sun exposure)
- Iodine
- Omega 3

That seems quite reasonable. You can get around almost any imbalance by applying science to your diet but not everyone wants to go to that level of detail, so a supplement makes it easier, providing that supplement doesn't in itself cause a problem with having too much of something.

In regards iodine, is the salt used in manufactured food iodised or not?
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:08 pm

CKinnard wrote:An article I found yesterday, that I think covers WFPB guidance well.
It's a US Physicians' guide to pros/cons of WFPB, supplementation, and how to guide a patient.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4991921/

Thanks for the link. I usually rate Kaiser and WHO as sources due to their interest in people's health over industries' health.

CKinnard wrote:Re Greger, iodine supplementation appears a pretty ubiquitous...

Brenda Davis and Jack Norris...

OK, I'll fold.
It goes against my non-reductionist approach, but I'll be getting iodine supplements when I get my next batch of B12 and zinc. I'll should know in a month or two if I feel better. If not, I may wind the dose back and/or ditch them. IMO it does nothing for the promotion of a WFPO diet if people see me having to take lots of pills. Though so far it looks like supplements appear much cheaper than eating nori. Has anyone found and economical way of eating seaweed to get enough iodine? I think my diet probably costs more than eating SAD already. Greger says 2 sheets or nori should be enough, but he doesn't give the sheet weight.

CKinnard wrote:Nevertheless, I appreciate the picture is blurred re measurement of iodine deficiency.
There are two methods to measure that I am aware of:
- urinary iodine concentration, which only offers an acute insight into dietary adequacy.
- elevated TSH levels, which as Mic and you have noted is confounded by systemic and local thyroid inflammatory states. And elevated TSH has been shown to normalize as overweight people lose fat, and eat a healthier diet.

The problem is that kind of advanced health care testing won't be available to most. I could just see my GP saying, "What do you need that for?" :roll: Even if I offered to pay for such testing, I doubt he'd be willing.

march83 wrote:Paid version. And I added my multivitamin as a custom food.

It looks like NUTTAB and nutritiondata.self.com for the most part don't list iodine. By it's absence it doesn't look to be that important. Maybe the assumption is that everyone will just use iodised salt and eat animal products and all is well.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:12 pm

mikesbytes wrote:In regards iodine, is the salt used in manufactured food iodised or not?


you would have to look at each product.
though iodized salt is usually more expensive. i.e.

woolworths 1kg :
table salt $1.09
iodized cooking salt $0.90

Australia's recommended salt intake is 1-2.2 grams per day, and higher if you sweat a lot with exercise.

Although I agree in general with SOS, I think it needs development.
i.e. I don't think it would be wise for a pro cyclist, ultra-marathoner, or Hawaiian Ironman triathlete to stick with 2.2 grams of salt, or get it purely from food sources. Nevertheless, I think in the future, we'll develop ever better balanced or complete supplements....and hopefully get back to healthier soils and agricultural practices. There's no doubt vege don't have the flavor or nutrient profile and load they had 40 years ago.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:21 pm

mikesbytes wrote:
CKinnard wrote:Michael Greger's How Not to Die recommends 4 supplements for WFPB
- B12
- Vit. D (if not able to get appropriate sun exposure)
- Iodine
- Omega 3

That seems quite reasonable. You can get around almost any imbalance by applying science to your diet but not everyone wants to go to that level of detail, so a supplement makes it easier, providing that supplement doesn't in itself cause a problem with having too much of something.

This is the problem with multivitamins. Many artificial vitamins in the past have been tested to find a negative benefit. Related is the mineral levels in such multis. In one of Barnard's books on mental health, he said to avoid multis with iron and copper in them as they are the metals - along with aluminium -, which are found deposited in the tangles which mess up one's brain to cause dementia type diseases. My specialist also warned me against taking vitamins with iron for the hemochromatosis reason. But that should be obvious. So I'm better served in just taking the vitamins I need, although more expensive.

mikesbytes wrote:In regards iodine, is the salt used in manufactured food iodised or not?

Although I heard that there was a push to get iodised salt in products by at least one government (Can't remember which one. Must be the lack of iodine :) ) it would be safer to assume not.
Last edited by Nobody on Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:22 pm

Nobody wrote:OK, I'll fold.
It goes against my non-reductionist approach, but I'll be getting iodine supplements when I get my next batch of B12 and zinc. I'll should know in a month or two if I feel better. If not, I may wind the dose back and/or ditch them. IMO it does nothing for the promotion of a WFPO diet if people see me having to take lots of pills. Though so far it looks like supplements appear much cheaper than eating nori. Has anyone found and economical way of eating seaweed to get enough iodine? I think my diet probably costs more than eating SAD already. Greger says 2 sheets or nori should be enough, but he doesn't give the sheet weight.


hey I appreciate being able to throw these things around with a rational and open minded audience :)

I am on thyroxine for hypothyroidism.
ask me whether I am going to go down the road and buy an iodine supplement
no! :)
I'll eventually get a multi-vitamin though.

The thing about the science is it is full of holes, and rigid stances based on incomplete and poorly interpreted data.

I think the first priority for me and most is to get healthy bodyfat % = waist circumference.
A lot of these deficiencies I think are probably associated with excess bodyfat, unbalanced diet and microbiome.
as I said before, hypothyroidism resolves when healthy bodyweight is restored.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:31 am

When it comes to deficiencies in WFPO diets, from my perspective there are three main drivers:

- Actually being deficient, or at least the personal perception of being deficient. That being from symptoms and/or actual test results.
I had this with B12. Was tested to find my levels continually falling with each test and then finally tingling/numbness in fingers and/or toes. Later I found that methyl B12 needs a minimum of 1000mcg/d which is a lot more than cyano. After taking 1000mcg/d for some time the tested results were at maximum levels. Jack Norris cites a study which shows 1500mcg/d to be minimum. The take home lesson is that overkill is better with B12 than too little.

- The fear of being seen as irresponsible about diet by not supplementing, when there is clear evidence of a standard or minimum requirement.
This is why I'm going to try iodine. Not because there is clear symptomatic evidence I need it (although many of the listed symptoms are vague, like fatigue) but because the recommendations say I need a lot more than I'm likely getting. However, as with minerals like calcium, the standards were established for people on generally a high fat, moderate protein omnivore diet. So they may not be as relevant to a low fat, WFPO SOS free diet.

- Insurance.
There is still contention around certain aspects of this style of eating, probably because of the limited studies on different aspects of it so far. One of them is whether EPA/DHA supplementation is necessary. If there is doubt, IMO it's better to take the safer path rather than have regrets in the future about what you can no longer change.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sat Feb 03, 2018 8:57 am


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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sat Feb 03, 2018 12:08 pm

An interesting factoid re cholesterol is carnivores don't get atherosclerosis no matter how much animal produce they eat.....UNLESS their thyroid function is compromised.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Top_Bhoy » Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:49 pm

Nobody wrote:OK, I'll fold.
It goes against my non-reductionist approach, but I'll be getting iodine supplements when I get my next batch of B12 and zinc. I'll should know in a month or two if I feel better. If not, I may wind the dose back and/or ditch them. IMO it does nothing for the promotion of a WFPO diet if people see me having to take lots of pills. Though so far it looks like supplements appear much cheaper than eating nori. Has anyone found and economical way of eating seaweed to get enough iodine? I think my diet probably costs more than eating SAD already. Greger says 2 sheets or nori should be enough, but he doesn't give the sheet weight.

I started a plant based diet after the new year for health reasons rather than ethical reasons. Popping pills to make up for an inadequate diet isn't a sustainable long-term solution. For me, it's still early days but if I find I have to continually stock-up and consume pills to remain healthy then the diet will need to be appraised and some middle ground alternative found.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:55 am

TB,

I agree with your point of view. For you, only B12 supplementation may be necessary. I have hemochromatosis and so need to take zinc to keep my iron absorption low. This then has a knock on effect of reducing the absorption of other minerals like copper.

As for me, I just ordered zinc 15 mg, methyl B12 1000 mcg and liquid iodine 225 mcg. I decided not the go the seaweed route for iodine so far due to cost and possible inconsistency of the iodine level. Since iodine is something you can easily get too much of.

In the end, everyone needs B12 who goes plant based unless you drink enough river water and get tested regularly. Zinc and iodine may be worth trying. IMO at least older males should get tested for omega-3 index once in their life to see if supplementation is necessary. Even if they are getting enough ALA.

Having said that, a person who is eating a standard diet is probably dealing with deficiencies and excesses. Those excesses from the wrong types of foods are usually doing more harm than their deficiencies. In the end, a low fat WFPO SOS free diet with a few specific supplements is still the healthiest diet according to the body of science.
Last edited by Nobody on Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:26 am

I think it is a popular misconception that only plant based diets require supplementation.
hahaha.
People just have no idea.

If you looked at the diet 90% of Australians eat, they'd have to take more supplements than vegans.

And even if you eat healthiest diet with animal bits included, you'd still need supps.

The level of debate and applied science in this field is not high.
In fact, that would make a good documentary - comparing the nutritional completeness of Paleo vs SAD vs WFPB...and how many supps each requires to reach adequate intakes.

And I agree with you Nobody that the excesses are the elephant in the room. If people put as much effort into those as they do into the deficiencies, I believe more than 50% of their health issues would go away.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby ball bearing » Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:58 am

Top_Bhoy wrote:I started a plant based diet after the new year for health reasons rather than ethical reasons. Popping pills to make up for an inadequate diet isn't a sustainable long-term solution. For me, it's still early days but if I find I have to continually stock-up and consume pills to remain healthy then the diet will need to be appraised and some middle ground alternative found.


Did you know that 90% of the worldwide production of B12 is given to farmed animals? Animals do not produce B12 - 100% is produced by bacteria. Animals get their dose of bacteria contained in the dirt that clings to the grass that they graze. Feedlot finished and raised cattle are fed soy, corn and other unnatural (for them) foods which cause acidosis. Antibiotics counter acidosis, but inhibit the bacteria that produce B12.

Many, many millions of meat and dairy eaters are B12 deficient and anaemic.

"Do carnivores need Vitamin B12 supplements?..."

"...The Framingham Offspring study found that 39 percent of the general population may be in the low normal and deficient B12 blood level range, and it was not just vegetarians or older people. This study showed no difference in the B12 blood levels of younger and older adults. Most interestingly there was no difference between those ate meat, poultry, or fish and those who did not eat those foods. The people with the highest B12 blood levels were those who were taking B12 supplements and eating B12 fortified cereals...."

"B12 Deficiency May Be More Widespread Than Thought..."

https://www.ars.usda.gov/news-events/ne ... n-thought/

http://baltimorepostexaminer.com/carniv ... 2013/10/30

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:04 pm

I don't see the issue with taking a supplement. As long as you know you actually need it, then its balancing out your diet without breaking the principals you abide by.

And a big yes, the bulk [pun intended] of population the real issue is excess rather than deficiency
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Top_Bhoy » Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:37 pm

mikesbytes wrote:I don't see the issue with taking a supplement. As long as you know you actually need it, then its balancing out your diet without breaking the principals you abide by.

And a big yes, the bulk [pun intended] of population the real issue is excess rather than deficiency

I don't have concerns about needing to take a supplement and I'm not in disagreement with what has been said so far...its when one supplement becomes several that my concerns grow. Unless a person has a particular health issue, I see the necessity of taking several supplements as signs of a poor diet and one which will either be costly to maintain or lead to other problems longer-term trying to balance and compensate for the deficiencies.

Since I started on a plant based diet after the New Year, my general observations are:
1) I'm generally sated in between meals. On the occasions I am not, a piece of fruit will suffice.
2) I'm losing 1 Kg a week so far.
3) My meals are taking longer to prep.
4) The pantry is missing the odd ingredient here and there and is taking a bit of time to build it up.
5) There are lots of recipes out there.

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