My heart attack - Are you as healthy as you think?

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ball bearing
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Re: My heart attack - Are you as healthy as you think?

Postby ball bearing » Wed Dec 28, 2016 11:03 pm

I understand the agressive response many people have when they feel threatened by the rapid uptake of a vegan diet. Who wants to believe that what mama gave us as a child could cause misery to ourselves and the animals we exploit.

My entire birth family have very poor health. My father and mother died in a diseased state. I am the exception after 44 years of a meat free diet. Coincidence? I don'think so.


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Re: My heart attack - Are you as healthy as you think?

Postby battler2 » Wed Dec 28, 2016 11:03 pm

True and the argument has been had in other threads. The argument and information is also muddied by vested interests in the food industry.
We have the digestive tract of a herbivorous animal. Our closest genetic relatives are largely herbivorous and only supplement their diets with animal protein. That is as complex as it needs to be for me.
Sure there are genetic differences between us however we are remarkably similar to each other and our GI tracts are remarkably similar to that of the great apes.
Some are more predisposed to coronary artery disease though, true.
I dont think if you are less predisposed it gives the green light to chow down on t-bone steak and salami daily.


forgot to mention we don't have sharp teeth.

and that i have a bbq which negates all of the above.

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Re: My heart attack - Are you as healthy as you think?

Postby TonyB » Thu Dec 29, 2016 5:49 am

Interesting debate, this Guardian article https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/apr/07/the-sugar-conspiracy-robert-lustig-john-yudkin?CMP=fb_gu is well worth a read.

A couple of years ago a mate had a Heart Attack on me while out riding, fortunately he survived and is back on his bike.

Big bro had a couple of stents put in earlier this year, I got checked out recently and all good, very happy as 7 years ago I had treatment for AF.

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CKinnard
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Re: My heart attack - Are you as healthy as you think?

Postby CKinnard » Thu Dec 29, 2016 6:37 am

cyclotaur wrote:
warthog1 wrote:Apart from expressing a dislike of vegans what is it you are trying to say here?
..
Good question. Leaving aside everything (including, and especially, personal opinions and preferences) I reckon it comes down to ...
battler2 wrote:...remember, there is no 'one size fits all' approach...


That's a slippery slope. You mean next time you are severely injured, you are going to tell the paramedics you don't want methoxyflurane, ketamine, morphine, or fentanyl because you can't be sure it will work on you because one size doesn't fit all?

Let's keep in mind modern medicine's success is due to 'one size fitting all' more than it doesn't.

Just because a heart attack can happen with various metrics being normal, it doesn't discount that congenital diseases such as valve irregularities, and nervous system dysregulation are not exacerbated or brought forward in time due to the effects of poor diet (and other adverse lifestyle choices).

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Re: My heart attack - Are you as healthy as you think?

Postby mikesbytes » Thu Dec 29, 2016 7:21 am

The generic discussion on whether Vegan is good or not would fit better in the diet thread or a new thread on its own

Hey Colin, while a distant second (or third) to the heart attack, how did your back go with the fall and CPR?
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: My heart attack - Are you as healthy as you think?

Postby warthog1 » Thu Dec 29, 2016 7:55 am

And ribs. Good CPR can and does break them, more often in the elderly though.

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Re: My heart attack - Are you as healthy as you think?

Postby cyclotaur » Thu Dec 29, 2016 9:58 am

CKinnard wrote:
cyclotaur wrote:
warthog1 wrote:Apart from expressing a dislike of vegans what is it you are trying to say here?
..
Good question. Leaving aside everything (including, and especially, personal opinions and preferences) I reckon it comes down to ...
battler2 wrote:...remember, there is no 'one size fits all' approach...


That's a slippery slope. You mean next time you are severely injured, you are going to tell the paramedics you don't want methoxyflurane, ketamine, morphine, or fentanyl because you can't be sure it will work on you because one size doesn't fit all?

Let's keep in mind modern medicine's success is due to 'one size fitting all' more than it doesn't.

Just because a heart attack can happen with various metrics being normal, it doesn't discount that congenital diseases such as valve irregularities, and nervous system dysregulation are not exacerbated or brought forward in time due to the effects of poor diet (and other adverse lifestyle choices).


No - that's a different issue, i.e. acute and emergency medicine where, as you rightly point out, the 'one size fits all' approach is generally very successful.

I was just talking about the choices we have over our diet and lifestyle.
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Re: My heart attack - Are you as healthy as you think?

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Fri Dec 30, 2016 1:47 pm

mikesbytes wrote:The generic discussion on whether Vegan is good or not would fit better in the diet thread or a new thread on its own

Hey Colin, while a distant second (or third) to the heart attack, how did your back go with the fall and CPR?

No-one appears to have witnessed the actual moments of the heart attack and I can't remember anything of the five hours before nor several days after. As far as I know I would have stepped off the uni if I had any warning and even it I passed out on the uni, at the place it happened, and which I have ridden many times, I would have been going even slower than my normal negotiating curb and path. Falling of would have been a gentle thing and I had no bruising, no gravel rash, no sprains, etc. Just bruised and cracked ribs from the CPR from 20 minutes of CPR and two (or more) jolts of high voltage.
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Re: My heart attack - Are you as healthy as you think?

Postby mikesbytes » Fri Dec 30, 2016 2:10 pm

So no additional trauma to existing (known) issues. That's good, assuming I'm allowed to use the word 'good' in this thread

Hows the ticker and blood going now?
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: My heart attack - Are you as healthy as you think?

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Fri Dec 30, 2016 8:29 pm

mikesbytes wrote:So no additional trauma to existing (known) issues. That's good, assuming I'm allowed to use the word 'good' in this thread

Hows the ticker and blood going now?


Three weeks ago I had to do an overnighter at a sleep lab. They put a cuff on me which automatically inflates, takes my BP and pulse and then rests for a minute of so before repeating another five times. A duress alarm went off after each cycle which initially caused the technician to hurry back to see what was wrong. My heart rate was 44 which, on many people, may indicate a problem. In my case I have always maintained a strong heart and pulse and BP that is not much different than when I was 20 and far better than most. A lot of cyclists here would be the same.

I had to see my GP on unrelated matters a week ago. He took the ususal readings of BP, pulse, chest adn breathing function. He still feels guilty about charging me, he figures that he does nothing for me.

According to my cardiologist I have no more risk now than I ever did. But I will probably be on statins for life as apparently I lay down plaque even at reasonably low cholesterol levels in my blood.

However, as per my OP, with the best metrics in the world one should not allow one to take ongoing health for granted. So I'm being a bit more cautious with what I eat.
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Re: My heart attack - Are you as healthy as you think?

Postby Cowcorner » Wed Jan 25, 2017 12:56 pm

OK, just thought I'd provide an update after my December "event". Second stent went in last Thursday and the cardiologist was really pleased with the result. Rehab begins on Monday, so I'll get a better idea as to what I can do to ramp thing up a bit as far as recovery goes. In the meantime my weight has dropped 7 kg in six weeks with only limited exercise (it's amazing what happens when you cut the cr4p out of your diet). The only thing now is to get some idea as to when I can get back to my "baby", which has sat neglected in the garage for the best part of 2 months.
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foo on patrol
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Re: My heart attack - Are you as healthy as you think?

Postby foo on patrol » Wed Jan 25, 2017 8:53 pm

That's good to hear, Cowcorner. 8)

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Re: My heart attack - Are you as healthy as you think?

Postby CKinnard » Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:47 am

Have been reading some good stuff recently.
Thought I'd add a couple of pertinent resources about better predicting your heart attack risk.
Lipid panels should not be relied on as they do not predict risk well for over 50% of people who have MIs....but medicine is conservative and it will take another 10-15 years before the convention changes.

Coronary Artery calcium scan predicts much better, and should cost under $200 out of pocket in Australia ($150 at my local radiologist).
https://youtu.be/U_Gcq8bEUq8?t=21m30s

And world leaders like Cleveland Heart Lab have better blood markers for stratifying cardiovascular disease risk.
http://www.knowyourrisk.com/

Either way, these are just risk indicators.
But hopefully you'll change your lifestyle if your risk is worse than expected.

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Re: My heart attack - Are you as healthy as you think?

Postby Mububban » Wed Oct 04, 2017 1:58 pm

CKinnard wrote:Coronary Artery calcium scan predicts much better, and should cost under $200 out of pocket in Australia ($150 at my local radiologist).
https://youtu.be/U_Gcq8bEUq8?t=21m30s


Can any GP give you a referral for this test? My dad had a quadruple bypass around age 60, I'm almost 40 so I think I should start checking this sort of thing every few years.
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Re: My heart attack - Are you as healthy as you think?

Postby Nobody » Wed Oct 04, 2017 2:59 pm

Mububban wrote:Can any GP give you a referral for this test?

Yes. I got one from my GP, but never went through with it for the reasons cited below.

Mububban wrote:My dad had a quadruple bypass around age 60, I'm almost 40 so I think I should start checking this sort of thing every few years.

The Cleveland link that CK put up is a good place to start as a guide. If your inflammation blood markers are high, then a scan may be worthwhile. From the studies and information below, it can be seen that hsCRP is a useful inflammation marker. Since there are larger differences between those who do and don't have CAD than other markers in the studies.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3038964/
https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/ja ... 23465/_pdf
http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/109/16/1955.full
http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/108/12/e81.full

CAC screening may be useful, but it can give you a very large radiation dose. Also if you do decide to have one, avoid the radioactive contrast injection if you are just getting a CAC for screening purposes.

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Re: My heart attack - Are you as healthy as you think?

Postby CKinnard » Wed Oct 04, 2017 3:49 pm

Nobody wrote:
Mububban wrote:Can any GP give you a referral for this test?

Yes. I got one from my GP, but never went through with it for the reasons cited below.


CAC screening radiation dose has reduced in recent years, to the point it is lower than mammography and low dose lung scans.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4789203/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25381303
And for many, a picture is more persuasive than a thousand words of dietary advice!

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Re: My heart attack - Are you as healthy as you think?

Postby Nobody » Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:34 pm

CKinnard wrote:And for many, a picture is more persuasive than a thousand words of dietary advice!

Can't argue with that. But regardless of my results, my resolve would have remained the same. No benefit for the added risk in my case.
Last edited by Nobody on Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: My heart attack - Are you as healthy as you think?

Postby CKinnard » Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:05 pm

Mububban wrote:
CKinnard wrote:Coronary Artery calcium scan predicts much better, and should cost under $200 out of pocket in Australia ($150 at my local radiologist).
https://youtu.be/U_Gcq8bEUq8?t=21m30s


Can any GP give you a referral for this test? My dad had a quadruple bypass around age 60, I'm almost 40 so I think I should start checking this sort of thing every few years.


And if your diet has been pretty average over the years, and vegan seems too extreme, consider just smashing the vegetables 2-3 times a day. Some authorities personally eat more than 10 cups of colored vege and leafy greens most days.
A higher intake of vege (than the std Western diet) is a common factor in Paleo, and low and high carb diets.

edit:
Nobody, I'll have to disagree with Pam Popper and others who say CACS is pointless, overservicing, or doesn't change outcomes.
This ignores clinical reality. Many conscientious people trying to do the right thing lifestyle wise are lulled into a very false sense of security by lipid panels....and blindly continue on with a diet that quietly robs them of enduring functionality.
For many, an abnormal CAC score (or coronary angiogram) and heart image, is a significant shock, and strong motivator, stronger than dietary advice. Some just respond more powerfully to imaging than blood marker numbers.

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