on Paleo and diabetes

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ColinOldnCranky
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on Paleo and diabetes

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Mon Aug 08, 2016 1:09 pm

I have no idea what paleo is and am happy to approach diet more comventionally. However this may interest some.

heraldsun.com.au
Paleo diet won’t help with diabetes
LUCIE VAN DEN BERG, Herald Sun

DEVOTEES of the Paleo diet shouldn’t bank on it beating type 2 diabetes with a leading health researcher warning there is no evidence that eating like our ancestors ameliorates the medical condition.

Obesity is a major risk factor in developing type 2 diabetes and lifestyle interventions, such as diet and exercise, are effective in reducing the risk of becoming insulin dependent.

While the cave-man diet involves avoiding processed food and refined sugars, it also involves cutting out important sources of fibre and calcium, such as wholegrains and diary.

Advocates of the diet, including chef Pete Evans, believe it is an effective way to reduce weight and gain glycemic control, while some people even claim it can get them off their diabetes medication.

Associate Professor Sof Andrikopoulos, a researcher at the University of Melbourne Department of Medicine at Austin Hospital, reviewed all the scientific, peer-reviewed evidence on the diet and the condition.

Writing in the Medical Journal of Australia, he said the Paleo diet advocates eating grass-fed meat, wild fish, fruit, vegetables, nuts and healthy fats.

While the focus on fresh foods and avoidance of processed foods appears consistent with dietary guidelines, Associate Professor Andrikopoulous said it was often skewed by individual interpretation with some people promoting a high intake of animal fats.

He found only 23 articles were written about the diet and Type 2 diabetes with only three clinical trials conducted.

“The studies had fewer than 20 participants, one had no control diet and they were all 12 weeks or less so we can’t draw any conclusions about the impact on weight gain or glycemic control,” he said.

“The scientific literature says that the Paleo is no better than any other diet in limiting weight gain.”

“In fact, the evidence is that there is no evidence that this diet is good for diabetics.”

Diets promoted by celebrities that were high in fat and eliminated carbohydrates may actually lead to weight gain and increase the risk of heart disease, he said.

Associate Prof Andrikopoulos, who is also president of the Australian Diabetes Society, advises that people with type 2 diabetes should consult a health professional before embarking on any diet.
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/paleo- ... 284ad05346
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uart
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Re: on Paleo and diabetes

Postby uart » Fri Aug 12, 2016 10:30 am

ColinOldnCranky wrote:I have no idea what paleo is and am happy to approach diet more comventionally. However this may interest some.
Hi Colin. Many diabetics have good results in managing blood glucose levels with a low carbohydrate diet.

Paleo is a somewhat more restrictive version of a low carb diet, and it also has something of a reputation as being a "fad" diet. Most diabetics that I talk to prefer to call their diet low carb rather than paleo because of the "fad diet" stigma, however low carb and paleo certainly have a good deal in common.

The low carb diet doesn't specifically exclude any food groups like dairy and grains, though grains in particular are usually limited due to their starchy carb content. Whether you include dairy or not on a low carb diet is personal preference, I personally include it.

Where low carb becomes controversial, particularly to the medical profession, is when it's described as low carb high fat (LCHF). If I say to my doctor that I've adopted a low carb diet to manage my diabetes he will say "excellent", however if I mention the "high fat" part then there will be an argument.

The truth however is that a low carb diet simply MUST be higher in fat to maintain the same energy content - it's a constant sum game and there is just no getting around that. So personally I'm happy to call my diet a low carb high fat diet, and I'm comfortable with that. Many people prefer to just call it "low carb" though, because other people have too much trouble getting their head around the high fat part. :)

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uart
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Re: on Paleo and diabetes

Postby uart » Fri Aug 12, 2016 10:36 am

Re the Herald-Sun article. I totally agree that there is a lack of good controlled studies on this diet. Where I disagree with the sentiment of the article however is that the author seems to be implying that insufficient evidence (due to too few properly conceived studies) for the diet's efficacy is the same thing as evidence that the diet is ineffective. It is not.

johnfordau
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Re: on Paleo and diabetes

Postby johnfordau » Fri Aug 12, 2016 2:43 pm

Essential sugar is the problem. We have historically been taught that foods like pasta, bread, rice, flour are good to eaten in quantity. These foods turn to sugar when eaten and have to either used or stored. Unless you are riding tour de France your body will struggle to use the energy and the sugar gets stored as fat around your body. If you don't burn that fat it just keep growing as your intake keeps growing. The reason is that the insulin which work to 'park' the carbs that keep getting shovelled into your gut multiple exponentially which drives the feeling that you are always hungry .. they want more and more carbs. This is the cycle.

Unless you happen to be an elite athlete to solve the problem just cut out sugar .. especially all that added sugar that package food companies pile into their products .. eat raw or nearly raw .. check out the sugar content .. better still just avoid all package food .. cut the CRAP .. that's Carbs, Refined sugar, Alcohol, Packaged food. So fats are good, unless the fat comes for plant produce .. Olive oil is good though, just don't cook with it. Essentially you are back to what our paleo ancestors eat and they did not suffer from an obesity problem.

Parker
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Re: on Paleo and diabetes

Postby Parker » Wed Aug 24, 2016 12:04 pm

South African, Dr Timothy Noakes supports LCHF diets for diabetics. I think he originally "wrote the book" on why high carb low fat diets were best and then has since changed his mind with further research.

march83
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Re: on Paleo and diabetes

Postby march83 » Wed Aug 24, 2016 12:28 pm

johnfordau wrote:We have historically been taught that foods like pasta, bread, rice, flour are good to eaten in quantity. These foods turn to sugar when eaten and have to either used or stored. Unless you are riding tour de France your body will struggle to use the energy and the sugar gets stored as fat around your body.
FWIW, the metabolic pathway to turn ingested starches/sugars into fat is long and complicated. What actually happens is that you eventually burn through the ingested starches/sugars but these are prioritised over ingested fats. It is these fats that are stored in adipose tissue.

Carry on.

RhapsodyX
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Re: on Paleo and diabetes

Postby RhapsodyX » Wed Aug 24, 2016 2:36 pm

march83 wrote:
johnfordau wrote:We have historically been taught that foods like pasta, bread, rice, flour are good to eaten in quantity. These foods turn to sugar when eaten and have to either used or stored. Unless you are riding tour de France your body will struggle to use the energy and the sugar gets stored as fat around your body.
FWIW, the metabolic pathway to turn ingested starches/sugars into fat is long and complicated. What actually happens is that you eventually burn through the ingested starches/sugars but these are prioritised over ingested fats. It is these fats that are stored in adipose tissue.

Carry on.
Feel free to post some evidence to support your position, re. "prioritised".

march83
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Re: on Paleo and diabetes

Postby march83 » Wed Aug 24, 2016 3:58 pm

There is a process called de novo lipogenesis (literally: Creation of fat from non-fat sources) that can occur in the body. This process turns glucose into lipids, which are then stored as body fat.

This process is normally quite inefficient in the body[1], which suggests that carbohydrates cannot be stored as fat to a high degree.

The process can be upregulated (enhanced) if dietary fat comprised almost none of the diet (lesser than 10%, as a rough estimate), if carbohydrate intake is excessively high for a period of a few days, or if one follows an obesogenic diet (diet that is likely to make you fat) for a prolonged period of time.[1][2][3]
https://examine.com/nutrition/how-are-c ... -deposits/
[1] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3165600
[2] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11722954
[3] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12972680

RhapsodyX
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Re: on Paleo and diabetes

Postby RhapsodyX » Thu Aug 25, 2016 11:26 am

march83 wrote:
There is a process called de novo lipogenesis (literally: Creation of fat from non-fat sources) that can occur in the body. This process turns glucose into lipids, which are then stored as body fat.

This process is normally quite inefficient in the body[1], which suggests that carbohydrates cannot be stored as fat to a high degree.

The process can be upregulated (enhanced) if dietary fat comprised almost none of the diet (lesser than 10%, as a rough estimate), if carbohydrate intake is excessively high for a period of a few days, or if one follows an obesogenic diet (diet that is likely to make you fat) for a prolonged period of time.[1][2][3]
https://examine.com/nutrition/how-are-c ... -deposits/
[1] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3165600
[2] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11722954
[3] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12972680
Yes, I know what lipogenesis is - I'm still not seeing anthing that says that fats generated by lipogenesis are "prioritised" for burning ahead of dietary fat. If you eat more calories than you consume, you are likely to store excess calories as body fat, but in the absence of carbohydrate there isn't much fat deposition going on because there's insufficient insulin to drive the storage process.

(I'm basing my assumptions that you are talking about fats when saying "prioritised", based on your statement that it's mainly the ingested fats that are stored as adipose tissue).

march83
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Re: on Paleo and diabetes

Postby march83 » Thu Aug 25, 2016 5:18 pm

RhapsodyX wrote:I'm still not seeing anthing that says that fats generated by lipogenesis are "prioritised" for burning ahead of dietary fat.
yeah, that's not what i was trying to say at all.

all i was say was that when you store fat in adipose cells chances are that you're storing ingested fats rather than fats generated by de novo lipogenesis.

RhapsodyX
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Re: on Paleo and diabetes

Postby RhapsodyX » Fri Aug 26, 2016 9:49 am

march83 wrote:
RhapsodyX wrote:I'm still not seeing anthing that says that fats generated by lipogenesis are "prioritised" for burning ahead of dietary fat.
yeah, that's not what i was trying to say at all.

all i was say was that when you store fat in adipose cells chances are that you're storing ingested fats rather than fats generated by de novo lipogenesis.
Except that fat storage/consumption is a far more complicated picture than simply "I store the fats I eat". If your carbohydrate intake exceeds your glycogen storage rate, your liver will convert excess glucose to triglycerides and they will be stored alongside any ingested FFA's. Adipose tissue storage/release is pretty much driven by carbohydrate intake - so pointing the finger at consumed fats is over-simplifying the picture.

During exercise... a whole different picture. As a "keto adapted" athlete, even at my FTP level I'm consuming roughly equal amounts of glycogen and FFA's (according to the RQ during a VO2Max test, anyway).

march83
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Re: on Paleo and diabetes

Postby march83 » Fri Aug 26, 2016 7:22 pm

yeah it is more complicated and i don't claim to understand it so i just read blogs from people who do and repeat what they say...

http://bodytransformationfitness.com/de ... -fat-gain/
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-lo ... -fat.html/
http://caloriesproper.com/are-carbs-stored-as-fat/

anyway, i'm out, it's been fun.

RhapsodyX
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Re: on Paleo and diabetes

Postby RhapsodyX » Sat Aug 27, 2016 3:04 pm

march83 wrote:yeah it is more complicated and i don't claim to understand it so i just read blogs from people who do and repeat what they say...

http://bodytransformationfitness.com/de ... -fat-gain/
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-lo ... -fat.html/
http://caloriesproper.com/are-carbs-stored-as-fat/

anyway, i'm out, it's been fun.
A more in-depth review - http://www.lucastafur.com/2011/04/extra ... nd_04.html

And... fair enough - I think I now understand the point you were trying to make re. storage.

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