Diet - Body Fights Back

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ft_critical
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Diet - Body Fights Back

Postby ft_critical » Wed Sep 20, 2017 7:43 am

I am interested to discuss mechanisms the body uses to resist weight loss.

The ones I am aware of, anecdotally, are;

• Body temperature control,
• Activity level, and
• Proprioreception (sp, body image but not in a purely conscious sense)

My assumption is that people are 'designed' a certain way (body type) and will unconsciously seek to mean revert to that. That mean reversion tendency will out last our conscious efforts to be other (thinner or fatter) in the long run.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

FT

Nobody
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Re: Diet - Body Fights Back

Postby Nobody » Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:41 am

ft_critical wrote:My assumption is that people are 'designed' a certain way (body type) and will unconsciously seek to mean revert to that. That mean reversion tendency will out last our conscious efforts to be other (thinner or fatter) in the long run.

Hi FT,

IMO the set-point theory is relevant to a set diet and exercise. In other words, an individual will end up at a certain specific weight depending on what their diet is and what exercise they do. I don't believe that a set-point is independent of diet and exercise over the long term (say 10+ years) so there is little one can do about it. I don't believe that people are just supposed to become overweight by middle age.

My experience:
As a teenager I was about 63 kg (BMI 21).
By 40 I was about 82 kg (BMI 27.4) on a standard AU diet.
Took up cycling again. Lost 5 kg, but then slowly put it back on over the next 5 years.
At 45 changed my diet to near perfect and lost 19 kg. This is with less exercise than previously.
At 49 years old, I'm currently 63 kg (BMI 21).

You could easily argue that my genetic set-point is 63 kg and I'd agree that under perfect conditions, it may be. But there will be people out there who are clearly overweight or obese who are saying that that is their set-point and they don't appear to be able to change it. I could have said the same in my early 40s since exercise alone didn't appear to change it. If you are noticing that your weight is creeping up as you age, or you don't seem to be able to escape a certain weight over the long term, then have a hard look at your diet.
Last edited by Nobody on Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

march83
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Re: Diet - Body Fights Back

Postby march83 » Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:10 am

A lot of what you're talking about is fundamentally hormonal. There are lots of things going on with lifestyle, conscious choices, habits, etc, but the hormones are fundamental...

Leptin is produced in fat cells and it basically tells the brain how fat you are to regulate your appetite - if you have plenty of fat then you make lots of leptin so the brain sees that you have ample fat stores and don't need to eat more and down-regulates your appetite. Unfortunately this system can break down over time. If you're overweight and producing lots of leptin all the time then the leptin receptors in your brain get continuously flooded and become less sensitive (leptin resistance). If you're very skinny or are dieting rapidly you can produce too little leptin which leads to cravings, binging, down-regulation of other hormones, etc. This is one of the many reasons why dieting is hard.

Lyle McDonald has some good writing on the topic of hormones, specifically the role of leptin in bodyweight regulation. Start here: https://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-l ... rt-1.html/

This one is also particularly interesting: https://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-l ... ones.html/ <- it looks at other hormones, potential take-aways and conclusions based up the knowledge we have in the topic at the present.

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Re: Diet - Body Fights Back

Postby ft_critical » Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:48 pm

Nobody wrote:IMO the set-point theory ... an individual will end up at a certain specific weight depending on what their diet is and what exercise they do.


Thank you for the introduction to the set-point theory and for sharing your personal story. I am an absolute believer in this, as you make new adaptations you achieve a new set-point. Over the years, I have increased exercise, stopped alcohol, switched to only water, cut sugar (to a great extent), reduced portion size.... Each of these has allowed me to attain a new sustainable lower weight. Of course these have to be adaptations that are sustainable, not diets. So my story is very similar to yours and I am now at my grade 12 weight. But any further reduction in portion size results in lower energy, being cold, cravings.... Yet I think there are still a couple of kg I could move.

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Re: Diet - Body Fights Back

Postby ft_critical » Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:52 pm

march83 wrote: or are dieting rapidly you can produce too little leptin which leads to cravings, binging, down-regulation of other hormones, etc. This is one of the many reasons why dieting is hard.

Lyle McDonald has some good writing on the topic of hormones, specifically the role of leptin in bodyweight regulation. Start here: https://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-l ... rt-1.html/

This one is also particularly interesting: https://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-l ... ones.html/ <- it looks at other hormones, potential take-aways and conclusions based up the knowledge we have in the topic at the present.


Thanks March83, I am going away on holiday and will start reading up on that. There was a great BBC programme I watched where they tried to make a group of different types/races fat which had some interesting results. Also, the reversion back at the end was remarkable in all cases.

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Re: Diet - Body Fights Back

Postby Patt0 » Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:06 am

ft_critical wrote:I am interested to discuss mechanisms the body uses to resist weight loss.


FT


Forest perspective, but important none the less.

Homeostasis. I apologise, it doesnt necessarily agree with set point theory. Either does 2/3 of western population.
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Re: Diet - Body Fights Back

Postby ft_critical » Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:08 am

Patt0 wrote:Homeostasis. I apologise, it doesnt necessarily agree with set point theory. Either does 2/3 of western population.


Tell me more Patt0, I am not familiar with homeostasis.

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Re: Diet - Body Fights Back

Postby Nobody » Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:32 am

ft_critical wrote:hI am an absolute believer in this, as you make new adaptations you achieve a new set-point. Over the years, I have increased exercise, stopped alcohol, switched to only water, cut sugar (to a great extent), reduced portion size.... Each of these has allowed me to attain a new sustainable lower weight.

I'm glad you agree on this as it makes my next point easier to make.

ft_critical wrote:Of course these have to be adaptations that are sustainable, not diets.

As you know, there a two meanings for the word diet these days. To me, diet is not something you go on for a fixed time, but the collection of foods you eat continuously. Like certain animals have a particular diet.

ft_critical wrote:So my story is very similar to yours and I am now at my grade 12 weight. But any further reduction in portion size results in lower energy, being cold, cravings.... Yet I think there are still a couple of kg I could move.

If you want to be more likely to lose the last couple of kg without difficult side effects, you probably need to change the composition of your diet. Keep in mind that different foods are processed and absorbed differently by the body, so not all calories are equal. So that means you may be able to eat more calories, get more nutrition and still lose weight. To do this you'd need to eat more fruit and veg, less animal products and foods higher in fat. It is about portion control, but more about selective portion control. Really cutting back, or eliminating selected foods you know are going to put on weight more for the same number of calories you eat. For example I eat about 4 kg of food a day, which is about twice what a person eats on a standard diet. About 19 serves of veg, 13 serves of fruit and 3 serves of grains. No animal products and minimal fats or high calorie density foods.

If you try moving toward eating similar to me, then I think in time you'll lose the extra weight you want to. Lose the weight slowly so your body is less likely to "fight back". To prove it could be done, I got down to in the 59 kg (BMI < 20) range late last year. Because I did it slowly over some months, I didn't get much in the way of side effects. But that weight was clearly too light for my build, so I'm happier to be 63 kg.

Edit: Probably a good idea to use Cronometer to see what you are or aren't getting in the way of nutrition if you're going to change your diet significantly.
Last edited by Nobody on Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

g-boaf
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Re: Diet - Body Fights Back

Postby g-boaf » Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:59 am

https://www.globalcyclingnetwork.com/vi ... -nutrition

That's one way to go about it, and it works. But it also considers that you are doing a lot of riding.

You can't just crash diet either - that sets you up to fail because you'll inevitably get super hungry and then be tempted to raid the fridge.

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Re: Diet - Body Fights Back

Postby Leaf T » Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:44 am

Austin Weight control clinic in Melbourne are doing extensive research into weight loss and control. I can't recall details but basically, current research has shown how an increase in certain hormones after weight loss increases hunger and therefore the weight goes back on. Apparently if you can maintain the weight loss for ~2 years the body readjusts and the hormones "reset" to the current weight.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/leader/nort ... 1c6545a465

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Re: Diet - Body Fights Back

Postby ft_critical » Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:58 pm

Nobody wrote: About 19 serves of veg, 13 serves of fruit and 3 serves of grains. No animal products and minimal fats or high calorie density foods.


The ability to eat a lot is very appealing. And moving to a diet like yours would be another level of adaptation.

g-boaf wrote:https://www.globalcyclingnetwork.com/video/how-to-lose-weight-like-a-professional-cyclist-with-team-skys-head-of-nutrition
But it also considers that you are doing a lot of riding.


The video has lots of pretty normal food. Total, Timing, Type. More protein less carbs, but carb before you train. @Nobody where do your carbs come from?

@g-boaf, when do you eat the carbs night before, from lunchtime to through dinner... assuming morning training?

It suggests that on the off days you have an @Nobody diet, then on heavy days/race days you have a carb heavy load before then finish with heaps of protein.

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Re: Diet - Body Fights Back

Postby g-boaf » Thu Sep 21, 2017 7:10 pm

Ahead of big (and fast) rides, I had big meals the night before, but also a pretty big breakfast too (perhaps 1 hour before approx) and that didn't leave me feeling hungry or flat. And then I'm eating throughout the ride too, not heaps, but a bit here and there.

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Re: Diet - Body Fights Back

Postby Nobody » Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:36 pm

ft_critical wrote:@Nobody where do your carbs come from?

Most of my carbs are from fruit, veg and oats.
As you can probably gather, my diet is designed with an emphasis on health and weight management. I just scale the calorie intake up or down depending on what I aim to weigh.
I've included nuts in the list below, but I don't usually eat them every day.

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Davobel
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Re: Diet - Body Fights Back

Postby Davobel » Fri Sep 22, 2017 11:09 pm

Insulin resistance can be a major factor in limiting weight loss.

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