Fasted riding first thing in the morning

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Mububban
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Fasted riding first thing in the morning

Postby Mububban » Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:04 pm

I've read that riding fasted first thing in the day can help to burn fat. Skip breakfast, do a ride at moderate intensity (?), then eat a normal breakfast afterwards.

Is that about right?

How long/far would you have to ride to get the fat burning effect? My commute to work is 13km. Shower, change and then eat a PB&J.
I'm wondering if this can help reverse the "skinny fat" thing I'm starting to notice lately :mrgreen: That and eating less chocolate (curse you, Lindt balls!!!)
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Derny Driver
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Re: Fasted riding first thing in the morning

Postby Derny Driver » Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:37 pm

Mububban wrote:I've read that riding fasted first thing in the day can help to burn fat. Skip breakfast, do a ride at moderate intensity (?), then eat a normal breakfast afterwards.

Is that about right?

How long/far would you have to ride to get the fat burning effect? My commute to work is 13km. Shower, change and then eat a PB&J.
I'm wondering if this can help reverse the "skinny fat" thing I'm starting to notice lately :mrgreen: That and eating less chocolate (curse you, Lindt balls!!!)

Yep my brother does this. He does over an hour in the mornings without food so 13k should be no problem. Im not sure about the actual weight loss numbers but in theory it should work.
Ive seen another method when I did a recent trip overseas with the NRS team Im associated with. These guys are all 6 foot tall and under 70kg. Every rider counts their daily calory intake, and dials in their energy expenditure (using how many hours they rode for). Its all done with their smartphones (an app) and garmin data. The idea is to burn 300 more calories per day than you intake.
Mark Fenner explains the idea here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18u6K1odLgY

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silentC
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Re: Fasted riding first thing in the morning

Postby silentC » Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:29 pm

I never eat before a ride. Have ridden 100km plus no problem, but of course I take food with me on those long rides. A typical 30km ride I don't bother with food. More than 30km or so and there is a major risk of bonking without something to eat - for me. Been there, didn't like it.

I don't do it to lose weight, I just don't feel the need to eat. Everyone is different but I find that if I eat first my gut feels too heavy. If I don't eat, I might feel hungry for 5 minutes or so early in the ride but then it goes away.

My understanding is this puts your body into fat burning mode (I'm sure there is a technical term) faster than if you have some fuel in your belly to begin with, someone will correct me if that's wrong. I have also read that a black coffee helps too.

I just eat a normal breakfast afterwards.
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Re: Fasted riding first thing in the morning

Postby ValleyForge » Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:14 pm

Mububban wrote:I've read that riding fasted first thing in the day can help to burn fat. Skip breakfast, do a ride at moderate intensity (?), then eat a normal breakfast afterwards.

Most caucasians will awake from sleep and swing into mild ketosis with further fasting. This is not a bad thing, but many of us don't like it (increased adrenaline/noradrenalin/glucagon and a few more mediators too) as we feel unpleasant.

To make the most of it, 13K is a bit short. You might find a combination of fasting, commute, then a protein load (protein shake) will prolong your body selectively burning ketones which is what it sounds like you want. Postpone any more calories until late in the morning.

The downside will be lethargy. Expect to be quite sleepy in the afternoon, and then this will improve in the evening. Coffee will help you feel better, but you are likely to crave Lindt balls.
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Re: Fasted riding first thing in the morning

Postby RonK » Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:21 pm

Yeah, I never feel much like eating at 5am, so a big drink of water is all I have.

I don't start to feel the pinch until around 60km.

I don't think it makes any difference to my weight.
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Re: Fasted riding first thing in the morning

Postby g-boaf » Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:30 pm

Derny Driver wrote:
Mububban wrote:I've read that riding fasted first thing in the day can help to burn fat. Skip breakfast, do a ride at moderate intensity (?), then eat a normal breakfast afterwards.

Is that about right?

How long/far would you have to ride to get the fat burning effect? My commute to work is 13km. Shower, change and then eat a PB&J.
I'm wondering if this can help reverse the "skinny fat" thing I'm starting to notice lately :mrgreen: That and eating less chocolate (curse you, Lindt balls!!!)

Yep my brother does this. He does over an hour in the mornings without food so 13k should be no problem. Im not sure about the actual weight loss numbers but in theory it should work.
Ive seen another method when I did a recent trip overseas with the NRS team Im associated with. These guys are all 6 foot tall and under 70kg. Every rider counts their daily calory intake, and dials in their energy expenditure (using how many hours they rode for). Its all done with their smartphones (an app) and garmin data. The idea is to burn 300 more calories per day than you intake.
Mark Fenner explains the idea here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18u6K1odLgY


Yeah, I do that a lot - I just have a espresso before I ride (because I like coffee), and I'm quite okay to ride for 1.5h without bother. Then I have something to eat and then do another few hours.

I remember on GCN they had one of the Team Sky people talking about their nutrition ideas. It's all fairly sensible stuff, concurring with the idea of burn more calories than you put in. And the key message I remember the guy saying was that they don't let riders lose too much weight too quickly for obvious reasons.

Mububban wrote:I've read that riding fasted first thing in the day can help to burn fat. Skip breakfast, do a ride at moderate intensity (?), then eat a normal breakfast afterwards.

Is that about right?

How long/far would you have to ride to get the fat burning effect? My commute to work is 13km. Shower, change and then eat a PB&J.
I'm wondering if this can help reverse the "skinny fat" thing I'm starting to notice lately :mrgreen: That and eating less chocolate (curse you, Lindt balls!!!)


My way of losing a few kilos is simply to ride more and avoid eating bad foods. I don't do the calorie counting though, but the idea is simple enough and will work the key being to not lose too much weight too quickly. The trick being to keep it going without going up and down.

The sleepy feeling someone mentioned in the afternoon I think is best dealt with by getting enough sleep in the first place, rather than trying to work, ride to and from work and manage on just 4-5 hours of sleep. That's not good at all. It's a really bad idea. Track the amount of sleep you get, and also try to quantify the quality of the sleep and then judge that against how you feel on your rides each day, and probably also how you feel during the day.

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Re: Fasted riding first thing in the morning

Postby ValleyForge » Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:01 am

g-boaf wrote:The sleepy feeling someone mentioned in the afternoon I think is best dealt with by getting enough sleep in the first place, rather than trying to work, ride to and from work and manage on just 4-5 hours of sleep.


What I brought up is a well described physiological phenomenon following a period of moderate fasting with exercise using ketone bodies for energy. The notion is the rebound effect following the catecholamine (adrenaline/noradrenaline) surge followed by an insulin spike driving sugar back into your muscles at the end of fasting, sponsors a prolonged period of sleepiness. Nothing to do with getting enough sleep.

For myself and many I ride with, we don't ride fasting in the morning. Causes too much havoc at work in the afternoon. And huge :oops: coffee bills
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Re: Fasted riding first thing in the morning

Postby march83 » Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:36 am

ValleyForge wrote:For myself and many I ride with, we don't ride fasting in the morning. Causes too much havoc at work in the afternoon. And huge :oops: coffee bills


Same. I ride before breakfast, but I don't ride far, and I don't ride fast. I want to start the day relaxed and happy and a cruisy roll to work is a great way to achieve that. I mainly skip breakfast because I'm not that hungry at 5:30am and it's more convenient to snack through the morning than it is to try to sit down to a meal before I leave the house at 6.

Additionally, I feel significantly more stressed and anxious throughout the day when I've been fasting in the morning: hunger + coffee + exercise = cortisol multiplier! Extending the fast once I get to work just doesn't really work for me.

On the weekend when I'm doing longer, training focused rides I eat something light before I leave the house (coffee + banana or something) but I don't really eat or drink on the bike til i'm riding for 2hrs+ or if it's hot or high intensity. I'd rather save the calories for when I get home, or for smashed avocados with mates at the cafe when we're finished. Honestly, I don't really see much of a difference in power output or recovery whether I'm eating 300cals/hr and hydrating or not. I don't think it makes much difference in terms of weight loss either, except I've probably saved a few calories til later in the day and/or made it slightly easier to maintain a deficit (ignoring the potential knock on effect of ramping up my appetite with additional stress, dehydration, etc).

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Re: Fasted riding first thing in the morning

Postby g-boaf » Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:04 am

ValleyForge wrote:
g-boaf wrote:The sleepy feeling someone mentioned in the afternoon I think is best dealt with by getting enough sleep in the first place, rather than trying to work, ride to and from work and manage on just 4-5 hours of sleep.


What I brought up is a well described physiological phenomenon following a period of moderate fasting with exercise using ketone bodies for energy. The notion is the rebound effect following the catecholamine (adrenaline/noradrenaline) surge followed by an insulin spike driving sugar back into your muscles at the end of fasting, sponsors a prolonged period of sleepiness. Nothing to do with getting enough sleep.

For myself and many I ride with, we don't ride fasting in the morning. Causes too much havoc at work in the afternoon. And huge :oops: coffee bills


I must be lucky then. I can get away with it without getting sleepy.

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Re: Fasted riding first thing in the morning

Postby silentC » Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:47 pm

Wish I could. I feel like a little nap right now as a matter of fact :)
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Re: Fasted riding first thing in the morning

Postby P!N20 » Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:08 pm

bsnyc wrote:Incredibly people consider this a training technique, when it is in fact quite clearly an eating disorder.

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Re: Fasted riding first thing in the morning

Postby ValleyForge » Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:14 pm

The sleepiness is not as common in asians. This includes sub-continental Indians too.

I only know it is most prominent in caucasians & negros.
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Re: Fasted riding first thing in the morning

Postby Mububban » Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:37 pm

ValleyForge wrote:The sleepiness is not as common in asians. This includes sub-continental Indians too.

I only know it is most prominent in caucasians & negros.


I'm half asian / half caucasian so maybe I'll just take a 15 minute power nap in the afternoon :D
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Re: Fasted riding first thing in the morning

Postby BugsBunny » Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:49 pm

I've tried a few things with and without fasted riding and my observations are as follows:

1 - Morning ride with relatively full meal, small digestion period then ride.
Feel full and mildly bloated but you will have the energy to last a number of hours without topping up on gels etc.

2 - Morning ride, completely fasted except for a coffee
Feels great! I've surprised myself - by being able to last a ride at least 1.5 hours or more. Initially, your brain signaled to me that I was needed food, but after a few moments of riding, that mental things completed passes and your body strangely doesn't feel hungry at all. Eventually you will get hungry and I've seen a pattern wherein around 1-5-2 hours is where I don't want to push it too far and I will carb up a bit.

3 - Morning ride, light meal - e.g. protein shake with about 200 calories
This is the worst option of the three for me. With this approach, I get hungry MUCH FASTER. Its weird. I will feel the hunger pangs in a shorter amount of time than for option 2.

Of the three options, what works best for me is option 2. Granted, I'm a amateur riding and not racing.

As for fasted riding and weight loss, I've tried it and it works for me. What I do mostly though is do an evening semi-fasted ride - about 3-4 times a week (as I prefer this to super early morning rides). Usually lunch at midday - but start riding on the trainer around 6pm after work but before dinner. Before I get started, I DO FEEL hungry. BUT... once you start riding, the mental hunger pangs completely go away - and I can ride for about 1-1.5 without getting hungry. BUT - if you push it too far, you will hit the wall. So you just have to watch it very carefully, as it creeps up on you very fast. Whilst not a full blown fasted state, I find 5-6 hours after a meal and then cycling has had a obvious improvement to my weightloss/fat burn.

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Re: Fasted riding first thing in the morning

Postby macca33 » Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:05 pm

From my own personal experience - you're fairly good up to around 60Km at a moderate paced ride, ie Tempo or so, but any harder/tougher and you'll suffer. If I am doing a quick bunchie, i'll try and stuff a banana or gel in - even thought he digestive system objects!

I reckon for Recovery/Endurance rides of 50Km+, fasting probably does help burn a bit of fat - but you cannot then go silly afterwards with the 'recovery' meal!

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Re: Fasted riding first thing in the morning

Postby g-boaf » Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:52 pm

macca33 wrote:From my own personal experience - you're fairly good up to around 60Km at a moderate paced ride, ie Tempo or so, but any harder/tougher and you'll suffer. If I am doing a quick bunchie, i'll try and stuff a banana or gel in - even thought he digestive system objects!

I reckon for Recovery/Endurance rides of 50Km+, fasting probably does help burn a bit of fat - but you cannot then go silly afterwards with the 'recovery' meal!

cheers


Time to roll out the guy from Team Sky I think:



He's right - although I'm absolutely sure someone will disagree with him.

The "calorie deficit" is exactly what a lot of people above are talking about. "Deliberately under-fueling on the days you can under-fuel" is what I take to mean eating food (and the right sort of food, though not fasting) but also doing a pretty big ride but not a fast one. But long enough that there is a calorie deficit.

He's talking about taking weeks and months of just bit by bit working away at the weight loss, and he's absolutely right. Warning - SIS advert at the end however.
Last edited by g-boaf on Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Fasted riding first thing in the morning

Postby Arbuckle23 » Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:06 am

Indeed, calorie deficit helped me loose a lot of weight. I found that riding fasted seemed to make no real difference in the rate of loss.
The important part was maintaining the deficit to keep the weight coming slowly off.

Hard part for me has been increasing food intake to match the amount of riding I do to stop the weight loss now I am where I want to be :)

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Re: Fasted riding first thing in the morning

Postby ValleyForge » Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:37 am

Mububban wrote:
ValleyForge wrote:The sleepiness is not as common in asians. This includes sub-continental Indians too.

I only know it is most prominent in caucasians & negros.


I'm half asian / half caucasian so maybe I'll just take a 15 minute power nap in the afternoon :D

Really interesting - Asian skeletal muscle mass is significantly lower than other races so the skinny-fat shape is a real phenomenon. Your physiology tends to put building muscle-bulk at the lower end of the priority list compared with belly fat. Having said that, what I've said still holds true.
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Re: Fasted riding first thing in the morning

Postby Mububban » Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:52 am

ValleyForge wrote:Really interesting - Asian skeletal muscle mass is significantly lower than other races so the skinny-fat shape is a real phenomenon. Your physiology tends to put building muscle-bulk at the lower end of the priority list compared with belly fat. Having said that, what I've said still holds true.


Story of my life. Got my height from my anglo dad and the perpetually slim asian thing from my mum. Not the worst problem to have, but I can eat like crazy and flog myself at the gym and not put on any weight.
On the flipside, my waist is only 1-2 inches larger at age 39 than I was as a teenager so I don't spend much money buying new clothes :D

So yeah, whenever people say "eat less pies" to lose weight (rather than buy a lightweight bike), or "just hit the gym" to gain muscle - not so easy for me!
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Re: Fasted riding first thing in the morning

Postby cyclotaur » Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:20 am

I currently do at least one short (30-40 min) sharp (high cadence intervals) pre-breakfast home trainer spin session each week. I lose about 0.2 kg over the session (some sweating involved...) but am usually also lighter the next morning.

This session often/usually reverses the gradual weekly increase in rested morning weight which occurs from Monday to Friday. I usually weigh in lightest on a Monday morning after longer late week/weekend rides. As I don't generally ride early mornings the pre-brekky home trainer sessions are my only real guide to this phenomenon.

As I understand the process this fasted exercising initiates the body's fat utilisation mechanism, which then persists for many hours afterwards, especially if the subsequent breakfast/lunch is high protein/low carb. So it would seem that either a regular spin session or a short sharp 30-40km ride before breakfast should help keep the weight stable. Two such sessions per week plus attention to diet around those rides could help gradually reduce excess weight.

Sample of One - I've dropped 3-4kgs over 3 months by paying more attention to diet and training efforts.
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Re: Fasted riding first thing in the morning

Postby BugsBunny » Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:45 pm

FWIW, at a Q&A session with Team Wiggins U23 squad, I asked them if they do fasted riding and I got a chorus of yes's from the 6 guys present. Assuming under training conditions as opposed to racing.

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Re: Fasted riding first thing in the morning

Postby Calvin27 » Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:42 pm

I ride 20km about 15 minutes after I get out of bed. My body hates me for the first 10 minutes and then straight into the groove. Sometimes I skip brekky if work is busy and jsut make do with a latte and then smash lunch hard. Haven't noticed any adverse effect, but then again I am the type of person who never really eats brekky and never could stomach stuff before 10am.
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Re: Fasted riding first thing in the morning

Postby Patt0 » Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:15 pm

My afternoon commute is fasted. My morning commute would also would be fasted except I have a espresso machine on timer at home. :D
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Re: Fasted riding first thing in the morning

Postby silentC » Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:44 pm

The weird thing for me is that on the mornings I don't ride, I start to feel a bit ordinary if I don't eat breakfast by 8:30 or so. I might be just doing some gardening or whatever, nothing too strenuous. Any more than an hour or so of that and I need to eat. But I can happily ride for a couple of hours without food.

I think this has something to do with insulin sensitivity which can be improved to a certain extent with exercise.
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Re: Fasted riding first thing in the morning

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Thu Oct 12, 2017 6:20 pm

Here peeps, read this. Lots of myths and misunderstandings with this stuff.

http://journals.lww.com/acsm-msse/Fullt ... ce.25.aspx

Fasted training may have some limited strategic uses but it is most definitely not appropriate all the time for those with athletic performance development in mind. There is a bit of a tendency of late to use such strategies without careful consideration of the specific situation, fads if you like.

For those simply seeking to exercise, it matters little.

As to when we burn fat - that's pretty much all the time except when we are going very hard and the energy demand can only be met via glycolysis. Of course if we a glycogen depleted, then top end performance degrades.

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