The vego and vegan athlete

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warthog1
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The vego and vegan athlete

Postby warthog1 » Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:20 am

New topic sorry. I think it diverges from the plant based diet thread, in that it is about eating for health and performance.
Previously I had a (half hearted, ill-informed) go at a vego diet and found my athletic performance suffered.
I'm trying to be more informed this time, as a 50 yo never was, I need all the help I can get, performance wise, on a bike.
Pushing myself and competitiveness is what motivates me to ride. I ride with other like minded individuals.
Anyway I have a recipe book coming the "no meat athlete".
In the mean time I found this article and a link to the paper by its' author.
http://theconversation.com/the-high-per ... ible-84868

https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/track/p ... 017-0192-9


Here is the conclusion;
Conclusions
In general, vegan diets tend to be lower in Calories, protein,
fat, vitamin B12, n-3 fats, calcium and iodine than omnivorous
diets, whilst concurrently being higher in carbohydrates,
fibre, micronutrients, phytochemicals and
antioxidants. Achieving a high energy intake is difficult
in some instances, owing to plant-based foods promoting
satiety. Issues with the digestibility and absorption
of nutrients such as protein, calcium, iron and zinc might
be an issue too, meaning that athletes might need to
consume higher amounts of these foods compared to
omnivores and other vegetarians. However, through the
strategic selection and management of food choices,
and with special attention being paid to the achievement
of energy, macro and micronutrient recommendations,
along with appropriate supplementation, a vegan diet can
achieve the needs of most athletes satisfactorily. Supplementation
with creatine and β-alanine might offer
augmented performance-enhancing effects in vegans,
who experience low pre-existing levels of these substances,
and further research is needed to investigate the
performance-enhancing effects of these substances in
vegan populations. For some, a vegan diet is the manifestation
of important ethical beliefs, and requires diligence
to sustain [5–7]. It is a central tenet of this
article that similar conscientiousness needs be paid to
achieving dietary sufficiency, otherwise health and performance
could suffer over the long term if an individual’s
nutrition is not managed appropriately.


I am sure there are aspects of the paper that will be controversial, however I agree (from my relatively uneducated perspective) that a diet high in fibre and less energy dense is not likely to result in optimal performance benefit.
I haven't researched the author but I wonder if the more informed on here would like to share any opinion on this article (creatine and B-alanine too) and the topic of a healthy performance orientated diet in general?
Last edited by warthog1 on Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The vego and vegan athlete

Postby trailgumby » Sun Nov 18, 2018 12:56 pm

This will be an interesting thread. I suspect we'll see a whole lot of anecdata as there has been - to my knowledge - very little research into this question, for a lot of reasons not least of which are it's a minority choice and lack of funding from industry. I'll be looking for links to quality studies to support conclusions.

My own personal experience has been that it seems unlikely to work for me, and my working hypothesis is that is related to gut biome - the mixture of bacteria and flora that co-habits inside of us to make our digestion function. That can be changed, of course, so the question then becomes how to select the right tenants and get them to come and live there. My thought is that variations in biome may be why vegetarian/vegan diet is a net gain for some (eg 2018 IPWR winner) and not others (such as my daughter).

Another question I'll be looking answer is whether the distinction between vegan and vegetarian makes a difference. For example, are dairy products permissible as a protein source for a particular dietary philosophy, and what impact that has.

Anyway, I'm sure the discussion will be stimulating. :)

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Re: The vego and vegan athlete

Postby Nobody » Sun Nov 18, 2018 2:41 pm

warthog1 wrote:Previously I had a (half hearted, ill-informed) go at a vego diet and found my athletic performance suffered...


[i]Conclusions
In general, vegan diets tend to be lower in Calories, protein,
fat, vitamin B12, n-3 fats, calcium and iodine than omnivorous
diets... Achieving a high energy intake is difficult
in some instances, owing to plant-based foods promoting
satiety. Issues with the digestibility and absorption
of nutrients such as protein, calcium, iron and zinc might
be an issue too, meaning that athletes might need to
consume higher amounts of these foods compared to
omnivores and other vegetarians...


...I am sure there are aspects of the paper that will be controversial, however I agree (from my relatively uneducated perspective) that a diet high in fibre and less energy dense is not likely to result in optimal performance benefit.

So you're likely going to have to do more planning on diet structure and diet tracking than the average healthy vego/vegan. Results take work. I suggest you get familiar with Cronometer. Maybe even subscribing to the gold version.

You might want to get some comprehensive blood tests periodically to see where you're tracking in various areas.

So you're seeking a higher calorie and lower fibre diet? Just keep an eye on your waist measurement, which should tell you more about where you're at than any calorie counting/estimate.

In regard to protein, studies have shown 1.4g/kg of body weight is considered optimal for muscle gain. Should be easy to get with the correct selections, even vegan. I get 1.2 g/kgBW currently. I could easily get 1.4, but can't see the need in my case.

N-3 fats. 5g should be plenty for anyone if their n-6 fats are low enough. Which you may not be if you're using oils. But Cronometer should tell you that. I'm under the impression you're already supplementing with linseed. I've never found increased fats to have a performance benefit. More to the contrary in my case.

Calcium, iodine, B12, vit-D and zinc all should be easy enough to supplement for. It's important that you don't overdo anything as they can also have negative consequences. Some research and tracking are likely required.

In our artificial environment, there is no perfect diet. Some are just healthier than others. I suppose your goal is to get healthier without losing performance. I hope you benefit from the journey. I suspect that eventually you will. :)
Last edited by Nobody on Sun Nov 18, 2018 3:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The vego and vegan athlete

Postby 10speedsemiracer » Sun Nov 18, 2018 2:57 pm

If the shift in diet is also accompanied by a corresponding increase in high-output activity, I would recommend seeking some professional advice, at the very least a GP but preferably a good nutritionist or ideally a sports dietitian/nutritionist.

Some where like The Melbourne Sports Medicine Centre (https://www.melbsportsmed.com.au/staff/dietitians-nutritionists) although this is just an example.
(I sent one of my athletes there to help manage Crohn's which surfaced mid-season).

What you're describing can be done but takes a lot more effort and planning, hence my suggestion of professional guidance.

This isn't the place to get it, no offense intended to anyone, just don't want to see anyone get ill or broken.
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warthog1
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Re: The vego and vegan athlete

Postby warthog1 » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:00 pm

Nobody wrote:
warthog1 wrote:Previously I had a (half hearted, ill-informed) go at a vego diet and found my athletic performance suffered...


[i]Conclusions
In general, vegan diets tend to be lower in Calories, protein,
fat, vitamin B12, n-3 fats, calcium and iodine than omnivorous
diets... Achieving a high energy intake is difficult
in some instances, owing to plant-based foods promoting
satiety. Issues with the digestibility and absorption
of nutrients such as protein, calcium, iron and zinc might
be an issue too, meaning that athletes might need to
consume higher amounts of these foods compared to
omnivores and other vegetarians...


...I am sure there are aspects of the paper that will be controversial, however I agree (from my relatively uneducated perspective) that a diet high in fibre and less energy dense is not likely to result in optimal performance benefit.

So you're likely going to have to do more planning on diet structure and diet tracking than the average healthy vego/vegan. Results take work. I suggest you get familiar with Cronometer. Maybe even subscribing to the gold version.

You might want to get some comprehensive blood tests periodically to see where you're tracking in various areas.

So you're seeking a higher calorie and lower fibre diet? Just keep an eye on your waist measurement, which should tell you more about where you're at than any calorie counting/estimate.

In regard to protein, studies have shown 1.4g/kg of body weight is considered optimal for muscle gain. Should be easy to get with the correct selections, even vegan. I get 1.2 g/kgBW currently. I could easily get 1.4, but can't see the need in my case.

N-3 fats. 5g should be plenty for anyone if their n-6 fats are low enough. Which you may not be if you're using oils. But Cronometer should tell you that. I'm under the impression you're already supplementing with linseed. I've never found increased fats to have a performance benefit. More to the contrary in my case.

Calcium, iodine, B12, vit-D and zinc all should be easy enough to supplement for. It's important that you don't overdo anything as they can also have negative consequences. Some research and tracking are likely required.

In our artificial environment, there is no perfect diet. Some are just healthier than others. I suppose your goal is to get healthier without losing performance. I hope you benefit from the journey. I suspect that eventually you will. :)


Thanks I will have a look at chronometer.
He is advocating plant based protein intake at the higher end of 1.4-2g/kgBW per day due to the decreased digestibility of plant-based vs animal protein.
I have no idea what I'm eating, so your suggestion makes sense.
I had a bit of a glance at who the author is https://theconversation.com/profiles/da ... son-411243
I assume he knows a fair bit more than I (as do most with respect to nutrition :( :lol: )
However food and diet are full of faux facts.
Anyway I 'll see how I go.

warthog1
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Re: The vego and vegan athlete

Postby warthog1 » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:03 pm

trailgumby wrote:This will be an interesting thread. I suspect we'll see a whole lot of anecdata as there has been - to my knowledge - very little research into this question, for a lot of reasons not least of which are it's a minority choice and lack of funding from industry. I'll be looking for links to quality studies to support conclusions.

My own personal experience has been that it seems unlikely to work for me, and my working hypothesis is that is related to gut biome - the mixture of bacteria and flora that co-habits inside of us to make our digestion function. That can be changed, of course, so the question then becomes how to select the right tenants and get them to come and live there. My thought is that variations in biome may be why vegetarian/vegan diet is a net gain for some (eg 2018 IPWR winner) and not others (such as my daughter).

Another question I'll be looking answer is whether the distinction between vegan and vegetarian makes a difference. For example, are dairy products permissible as a protein source for a particular dietary philosophy, and what impact that has.

Anyway, I'm sure the discussion will be stimulating. :)


I don't know much about the gut biome.
I assume it changes based on what you eat over an extended period.
Kombucha? :)

warthog1
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Re: The vego and vegan athlete

Postby warthog1 » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:08 pm

10speedsemiracer wrote:If the shift in diet is also accompanied by a corresponding increase in high-output activity, I would recommend seeking some professional advice, at the very least a GP but preferably a good nutritionist or ideally a sports dietitian/nutritionist.

Some where like The Melbourne Sports Medicine Centre (https://www.melbsportsmed.com.au/staff/dietitians-nutritionists) although this is just an example.
(I sent one of my athletes there to help manage Crohn's which surfaced mid-season).

What you're describing can be done but takes a lot more effort and planning, hence my suggestion of professional guidance.

This isn't the place to get it, no offense intended to anyone, just don't want to see anyone get ill or broken.


Yes a change of diet and an increase in activity.
I'm hardly an elite athlete though and no more than I've done on the past in an omnivorous diet.
I don't expect I'll get ill or broken, I'll just plateau at a lower level than may be possible with better nutrition.

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Re: The vego and vegan athlete

Postby 10speedsemiracer » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:20 pm

warthog1 wrote:....Yes a change of diet and an increase in activity.
I'm hardly an elite athlete though and no more than I've done on the past in an omnivorous diet.
I don't expect I'll get ill or broken, I'll just plateau at a lower level than may be possible with better nutrition.



I was more thinking along the lines of the effects would be more pronounced in riders of our age, and it pays to be safe, even if it's just your GP (if they're any good). My perspective is being formed by my recent experience of all of my old injuries now coming back to haunt me in a big way.
Mmm, SunTour

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Re: The vego and vegan athlete

Postby warthog1 » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:30 pm

10speedsemiracer wrote:
warthog1 wrote:....Yes a change of diet and an increase in activity.
I'm hardly an elite athlete though and no more than I've done on the past in an omnivorous diet.
I don't expect I'll get ill or broken, I'll just plateau at a lower level than may be possible with better nutrition.



I was more thinking along the lines of the effects would be more pronounced in riders of our age, and it pays to be safe, even if it's just your GP (if they're any good). My perspective is being formed by my recent experience of all of my old injuries now coming back to haunt me in a big way.


I got some blood tests at the end of a winter sitting on the couch drinking red wine. Cholesterol and PSA and I'm not sure what else. They weren't too bad according to her (a vego I think too)
Anyway the BP and waist were both a bit up, so changes are in order.
I should get a copy of the results and test more specifically In a month or 2.

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Re: The vego and vegan athlete

Postby 10speedsemiracer » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:40 pm

warthog1 wrote:...I got some blood tests at the end of a winter sitting on the couch drinking red wine. Cholesterol and PSA and I'm not sure what else. They weren't too bad according to her (a vego I think too)
Anyway the BP and waist were both a bit up, so changes are in order.
I should get a copy of the results and test more specifically In a month or 2.


That sounds like a really good approach.
Mmm, SunTour

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Re: The vego and vegan athlete

Postby CKinnard » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:53 pm

I am unaware of any "life time" vegans in the top 100 GC cyclists.

From my involvement with Team Sky 2014-2016, they do not advocate vegan vego diets for performance gains. Eating animal bits comes with an anabolic boost that plant diets lack. Therefore, the very pointy end of competitive sport dependent on strength or strength-endurance, is unlikely to see "life time" vegans with an advantage.

However, as one ages, competitive advantage depends more and more on
- avoiding injury
- rapid recovery when injury occurs
- slowing the rate of tissue and systems degeneration

Further, there's a lot of blurry propaganda dished up by vegan and low carb camps on athletic advantage. The truth is, both jump all over any successful athlete who announces he/she is a vegan/LCer, even if they have only been such for 6 mths. That's very disingenuous. Most elite athletes build their strength and cardio base before 20yo. So no camp should lay claim to any athletic superiority unless relevant athletes adhered to one diet since a baby. And actually, it would be more convincing if a superior athlete came from several generations on whichever diet.

In my view, the literature and sports I have been involved with state, you can either aim for world class athletic performance, OR, a longevity advantage.....BUT you cannot have both.

There's one exception though - if you want to be a world class athlete over the age of 70, then choose the diet with the longevity advantage!!!

And even better, stop competing against others in sport....and compete against who you were last week, last year, 10 years ago...both athletically and in terms of character and positive influence on others.

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Re: The vego and vegan athlete

Postby Nobody » Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:04 am

Thanks for posting CK.
Well your experience with Sky and knowledge has put the performance case to rest. WH1 will just have to find a compromise he's happy with if he wants a lower BP and relative high performance.

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Re: The vego and vegan athlete

Postby march83 » Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:41 am

FWIW, I'm someone who performs better on a vegan diet. It's attributable to several factors.

1) lower weight: I can maintain a much lower weight on a vegan diet than any other so my power to weight is vastly improved. I eat a lot and if I want to lean out a little I skip a meal every few days for a month or 2 and I'm down to race weight.

2) better recovery: I'm sure something that I was eating prior to going vegan was inhibiting my recovery somewhat. By eliminating animal products I've cut out whatever it was and gone from someone who would be run down, slow and exhausted on a 400km week to someone who can handle 600+ without really suffering. More volume translates to more gains - something of an oversimplification, but it holds true for the most part.

These 2 factors mean that my performance is way ahead of where it was on an omni diet.

I am standing on the shoulders of giants though - I've only been vegan for about 2 years and prior to that I had tried various different diets such as low fat calorie counting, ketogenic, paleo, etc, and throughout that time I did a lot of fairly structured training.
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Re: The vego and vegan athlete

Postby CKinnard » Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:22 am

Nobody wrote:Thanks for posting CK.
Well your experience with Sky and knowledge has put the performance case to rest. WH1 will just have to find a compromise he's happy with if he wants a lower BP and relative high performance.


I see many athletes give vegan diet a go.
There's many general popn examples of females who go vegan from ~7 though to 20 due to ethical issues re animals, or just not 'liking' meat.
Some males do as well, but much less than females.
Recall 2% of the US popn state they are vegan, 80% of those are female, and there's 5 times as many ex-vegans as vegans.

However, ime athletes get more motivated to look at their diet once they start having general health, performance and/or injury issues.
And that raises the point of how healthy were they eating prior to trying vegan. If they were eating poorly (SAD), then suddenly start to smash the fruit and vege, and dump the junk, of course they are going to feel better, maybe lose some fat, and clean their arteries up a bit.

I see lots of Masters athletes start looking more seriously for performance boosts, and channel their energies into better nutrition, including supplements. After porn, I'd say nutrition and supplement info must be the most popular thing on the internet!!! :)
Some start looking at "going vegan", and doing dolomite, lecithin, aloe vera, BCAAs, creatinine, Enzyme Q, Kombucha, ginger, tumeric, beetroot juice, and a hundred other "brand new things" I've seen through the years. Once again though, you have to consider what they were eating before, and the quality of the vegan diet they go on. Many of the pin up boys veganism claims as their own like Carl Lewis were only vegan for a few years, and only in response to persistent injuries and performance plateaus or losses.

Finally, I think one has to be careful looking at pro athletes for dietary guidance.
Some examples:

- pros generally ride 20+ hours a week, and get a lot of rest time. A Masters athlete with a full time job and family commitments riding less than 12 hours a week isn't in the same boat.
- pro cyclists tend to eat white rice and bread, and vege during grand tours. why? because they want to reduce fiber intake so they are not generating as much fecal bulk and getting the urge to eliminate during races.
- accompanying this, they tend to take a higher level of fat to get their 5000-7000 Calories per day and reduce food volume and weight in their intestines (to improve power to weight ratio). The more food and fecal matter in your intestines, the more water is bound up with it = much more weight to carry. Associated with this, "gastric distress" has been a serious issue for decades in long races, and it is associated with a lot of intestinal bulk, and the body's water reserves being required simultaneously by that bulk, but also by muscles and blood....this results in fluid shunting between these, and the possibility of intestinal cramps.
- 2g/kg bwt of protein goes out the window when you are eating 4000+ Calories per day.
- the low carb movement have made a lot of noise about Chris Froome's wife guiding him onto a higher fat and lower carb diet, on the lead up to his substantial performance gains around 2011. However, when you look at his diet in terms of total Calories, and the junky carbs he was eating beforehand, the beat up is just that. Based on my discussions with Sky staff, the most likely contributors to Froome's performance gains were reducing bodyfat and upper body lean tissue to optimize his body for cycling power to weight ratio. He also improved insulin sensitivity on a less junky carb diet.

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Re: The vego and vegan athlete

Postby MichaelB » Mon Nov 19, 2018 12:02 pm

All I can say is I like my steaks & cheese too much to even try to go vegan.

All power to those that want and can.

:-)

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Re: The vego and vegan athlete

Postby warthog1 » Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:05 pm

Nobody wrote:Thanks for posting CK.
Well your experience with Sky and knowledge has put the performance case to rest. WH1 will just have to find a compromise he's happy with if he wants a lower BP and relative high performance.


I will be happy measuring my performance against those I ride with and have ridden with previously.
There are a few my age, that before I hit the couch and red wine over winter, I had covered.
I don't now :lol:
I'll see how I'm going when I drop the weight.
It is slowly shifting.

I am hardly about to ride a grand tour so I don't see the dietary regime of those who do as relevant.
Sure at the elite end of performance animal products may hold an advantage.
At 50 and at my level I hope to be able to perform at least as well on a meat, dairy and egg free diet as on a diet that includes those ingredients.
Got the no meat athlete cookbook today, it looks good. There is a foreword by Rich Roll and intro from Matt Frazier.
There are enough examples of well-performing athletes on veg diets that I am a fair bit more positive than I was. :)

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Re: The vego and vegan athlete

Postby warthog1 » Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:02 pm

CKinnard wrote:I am unaware of any "life time" vegans in the top 100 GC cyclists.

From my involvement with Team Sky 2014-2016, they do not advocate vegan vego diets for performance gains. Eating animal bits comes with an anabolic boost that plant diets lack. Therefore, the very pointy end of competitive sport dependent on strength or strength-endurance, is unlikely to see "life time" vegans with an advantage.

However, as one ages, competitive advantage depends more and more on
- avoiding injury
- rapid recovery when injury occurs
- slowing the rate of tissue and systems degeneration

Further, there's a lot of blurry propaganda dished up by vegan and low carb camps on athletic advantage. The truth is, both jump all over any successful athlete who announces he/she is a vegan/LCer, even if they have only been such for 6 mths. That's very disingenuous. Most elite athletes build their strength and cardio base before 20yo. So no camp should lay claim to any athletic superiority unless relevant athletes adhered to one diet since a baby. And actually, it would be more convincing if a superior athlete came from several generations on whichever diet.

In my view, the literature and sports I have been involved with state, you can either aim for world class athletic performance, OR, a longevity advantage.....BUT you cannot have both.

There's one exception though - if you want to be a world class athlete over the age of 70, then choose the diet with the longevity advantage!!!

And even better, stop competing against others in sport....and compete against who you were last week, last year, 10 years ago...both athletically and in terms of character and positive influence on others.


Rob Power is/was I think.
Yes I understand at the elite level the energy density of Vegan foods isn't as great and is harder to digest and therefore less energy is liberated per gm of intake. Is that too much of a simplification?
My level is somewhat more pedestrian.
250-300km a week.
Shouldn't be an issue should it?
The bloke who wrote the article I linked is a senior lecturer in Sports Nutrition. I assume he is not uninformed.
Do you see a problem with 5g of creatine a day and the Beta-alanine he mentions? They are cheap, he postulates a benefit.
I get the BS around so much of the supplement industry. I'd not have considered it other than that article.

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Re: The vego and vegan athlete

Postby warthog1 » Tue Nov 20, 2018 11:53 am

Well here's some anecdata.
If you want to go backwards at a rapid rate of knots on the bike, cut out animal products.
Just back from the Tues Mt Alex ride
Woeful.
Ask the legs to deliver and there is simply nothing there.
I realise I'm up and down like a bipolar yoyo here, but that is a failed experiment for me.
I'm done with that idea. Same as last time.

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Re: The vego and vegan athlete

Postby march83 » Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:46 pm

That was quick. A conclusive 48hr experiment?
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Re: The vego and vegan athlete

Postby Thoglette » Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:40 pm

warthog1 wrote:My level is somewhat more pedestrian.
250-300km a week.
Shouldn't be an issue should it?

God no. That's barely two easy hours riding a day.

The important bit is doing that level of exercise and eating a "mostly sane" diet*. And avoiding chronic conditions (e.g. repetitive injury or diet related problems from too much or too little)

(A mate of mine was a middling triathlete and he did 700km a week - plus equal effort swimming and running, for a notional 2,100km a week :shock:

I had a relative who decided that all he needed to eat was brown rice and tea to support his daily half marathon. Didn't take long for scurvy and related issues to kick in Image)
Stop handing them the stick! - Dave Moulton
"People are worthy of respect, ideas are not." Peter Ellerton, UQ

warthog1
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Re: The vego and vegan athlete

Postby warthog1 » Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:55 pm

march83 wrote:That was quick. A conclusive 48hr experiment?

I did say anecdata :) I've tried similar before, off a better base and went backwards then too.
I've been on the diet for about a month.
I am just not seeing the improvement I should with the k's going up and the weight going down.
I am not about to dive into Maccas hamburgers, but I am going to include some lean meat a few times a week.
Still off the grog and minimising fat and junk food.

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Re: The vego and vegan athlete

Postby CKinnard » Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:10 pm

warthog1 wrote:Rob Power is/was I think.
Yes I understand at the elite level the energy density of Vegan foods isn't as great and is harder to digest and therefore less energy is liberated per gm of intake. Is that too much of a simplification?
My level is somewhat more pedestrian.
250-300km a week.
Shouldn't be an issue should it?
The bloke who wrote the article I linked is a senior lecturer in Sports Nutrition. I assume he is not uninformed.
Do you see a problem with 5g of creatine a day and the Beta-alanine he mentions? They are cheap, he postulates a benefit.
I get the BS around so much of the supplement industry. I'd not have considered it other than that article.


A quick google gives nothing re Rob Power being vegan.

The elite thing isn't so much a vegan energy density issue. A vegan could reduce fiber and increase fat intake for short periods such as GTs.
If you want to reduce fiber in your gut for criteriums and road racing, you could reduce starchy and fibrous carbs 48 hours before a race, then have a refined carb meal the night before, and small refined carb breakfast 1.5-2 hours before race. These don't have to be big meals. All you need to top up your glycogen stores. Average stores for a 75kg male are 500grams in muscle and 100g in liver, so 2400 Cals of carb energy all up.

To top up glycogen after 48 hours of low carb and training taper, you might only need 100-150g (400-600 Cals = 2-3 cups of pasta or rice, 2 cups the night before and 1 cup for breakfast). Keep in mind, at rest and doing most forms of sustained manual work and low intensity cardio, a trained athlete utilizes >80% fat.

You want to experiment with this. Initially you might feel weak, but as you regain some insulin sensitivity, you'll get more efficient at utilizing glycogen reserves and increase fat mobilization. The point is you want to reduce the work going on in the gut, because that will pull energy, fluid, and blood from other parts of the body...and compromise muscle.

Many athletes don't realize how important adrenalin and testosterone are for athletic performance - mobilizing and utilizing energy substrates, and peak muscle fiber recruitment. The additional strength some experience when taking metamphetamine class illicit drugs is due primarily to stimulation of adrenergics. The adrenergic system is extremely important for increasing fatty acid mobilization and usage at higher intensities. In 2016, I had interesting conversations with Derick McLeod (Team Sky sports physician) on its susceptibility to a training effect.

The article you linked to is consistent with current general nutritional guidelines.

The most common supplements I've seen used in pro cycling are creatine, BCAAs, and beta alanine.
None of these are used broadly or consistently. Why? because their effects are equivocal.
Nevertheless, pro teams are relaxed about individuals wanting to take non controversial supps....why? because the placebo effect is respected.

There's a dozen other areas other than supplements that impact performance, orders of magnitude more - psychology (goals, motivation, balance), competition tactics, bike handling (descending, climbing, sprints, obstacle avoidance), diet, hydration, sleep, stress mgt, training (load, shaping, cycles), accessory training (flexibility especially spinal, enhanced diaphragm and gut function), recovery, stretching and massage, injury mgt.

The supplementation that is taken seriously in multi-day competition is electrolyte balance. Urine testing is done regularly in trainig and often multiple times in a day. In more recent years, top teams are taking more seriously protecting the kidneys, and heart and its conduction system. Inflammatory or stress overload scarring and dysfunction of these results in arguably greater compromise to an athlete's career than anything else apart from unmasking of congenital musculoskeletal issues, and injuries.

Further, supplements tend to give something and compromise something else.
i.e.
Creatine can (1) adversely effect fluid distribution resulting in reduced blood volume. (2) increase glucose uptake rate by muscles beyond their capacity to use it short term. This is putated to burden working muscle with additional glycogen synthesis and lipogenesis.
Creatine is generally not recommended for any activity other than those requiring short bursts of effort.

There's always someone trying to make a name for himself in sports medicine, and score one of few well paid secure positions at the top of the game. So there's always university depts and obsessives trying to gain a reputation with some brand new thing, combo, or training program. If something doesn't last more than 5 years, it's more likely rubbish with dodgy science and nepotism back of it.

Stuff that is monitored by better funded teams are blood and urine testing - for markers of inflammation, several hormones, immunity, catabolic activity (skeletal and coronary muscle), renal and liver function. One or two have messed with sleep monitoring (REM, nREM cycles) because these can be early signs of training overload and immune compromise.

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10speedsemiracer
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Location: Melbourne, in the suburbs, near some hills

Re: The vego and vegan athlete

Postby 10speedsemiracer » Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:23 pm

Sorry you've had this experience warthog. I went thru a similar sort of thing, although inspired by a cardiac event, and found that a less-drastic level of alteration worked for me. I started with cutting out all junk food, and sugar and white bread/white rice were off the shopping list, and I reduced my meat intake.

That, and more regular riding got me down from 122kg to 96kg (so far) and more importantly got my resting HR back down to the low 60s and allowed me to get off all of the drugs aside from Aspirin which I'll be on for life..
Mmm, SunTour

CKinnard
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Re: The vego and vegan athlete

Postby CKinnard » Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:27 pm

warthog1 wrote:
march83 wrote:That was quick. A conclusive 48hr experiment?

I did say anecdata :) I've tried similar before, off a better base and went backwards then too.
I've been on the diet for about a month.
I am just not seeing the improvement I should with the k's going up and the weight going down.
I am not about to dive into Maccas hamburgers, but I am going to include some lean meat a few times a week.
Still off the grog and minimising fat and junk food.


If you are still losing weight, then you are not going to feel strong, cos you are catabolizing tissue).
Wait until your weight stabilizes before giving up on the experiment.
Also, It might take a few months after that to stop having cravings for animal stuff.
When those cravings stop, then your body is likely to have weaned off animal bits, and ramped up digestion, absorption, and metabolic pathways that process plants more.....and down regulated meatabolic paths! :) and got your microbiome into better knick.

another self observation worth it, is how long you can go without eating. That's a bit of a metric for insulin sensitivity.
As that improves you should find weakness isn't as big a deal.

Finally, while losing weight, you'd benefit from some resistance exercise to preserve lean tissue somewhat, and keep your testosterone levels up:
a little for your upper limbs (dive bomber pushups, pullups)
a lot for your lower limbs (super slow step ups/downs, forward and side lunges)
a bit for your core (hanging knee raises)

warthog1
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Re: The vego and vegan athlete

Postby warthog1 » Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:04 pm

CKinnard wrote:
warthog1 wrote:
march83 wrote:That was quick. A conclusive 48hr experiment?

I did say anecdata :) I've tried similar before, off a better base and went backwards then too.
I've been on the diet for about a month.
I am just not seeing the improvement I should with the k's going up and the weight going down.
I am not about to dive into Maccas hamburgers, but I am going to include some lean meat a few times a week.
Still off the grog and minimising fat and junk food.


If you are still losing weight, then you are not going to feel strong, cos you are catabolizing tissue).
Wait until your weight stabilizes before giving up on the experiment.
Also, It might take a few months after that to stop having cravings for animal stuff.
When those cravings stop, then your body is likely to have weaned off animal bits, and ramped up digestion, absorption, and metabolic pathways that process plants more.....and down regulated meatabolic paths! :) and got your microbiome into better knick.

another self observation worth it, is how long you can go without eating. That's a bit of a metric for insulin sensitivity.
As that improves you should find weakness isn't as big a deal.

Finally, while losing weight, you'd benefit from some resistance exercise to preserve lean tissue somewhat, and keep your testosterone levels up:
a little for your upper limbs (dive bomber pushups, pullups)
a lot for your lower limbs (super slow step ups/downs, forward and side lunges)
a bit for your core (hanging knee raises)


Thanks for spending your time and effort posting info for me CK. I appreciate it :)
I will go back to lower fat omni for a while and when I come back up form wise, I might have another go.
I was dead last up the mount today.
Never happened before and pinged off the back on another climb during the swap off despite sitting on.
When I go to ramp up there is nothing there, which is the same thing that happened last time when I was fitter.
I am losing weight very slowly.
80kg at 184cm so not obese by any stretch but 4-5 kg from where I'd like to be.

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