New XC race hardtail?

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New XC race hardtail?

Postby ldrcycles » Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:20 pm

I'm looking at upgrading my bike from the Fankenstein i'm on at the moment (a $400 GT i got as a frame then built it to a sub10kg by going REALLY out there with the spec, thumb shifters, rigid forks, road front mech etc.) It's great but being a heavy (2040g) aluminium frame the rear end is SERIOUSLY harsh.
What would people recommend in the way of carbon frames/complete bikes? I am aware the aluminium Giant XTC is as light as some carbon frames and i'm definitely looking at it. Definitely not interested in a dually, i'd rather go fast than be comfortable :-p.
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by BNA » Wed Nov 10, 2010 9:35 pm

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Re: New XC race hardtail?

Postby Fred Nurk » Wed Nov 10, 2010 9:35 pm

New carbon Zaskars look quite nice, and should be reasonably light.

I would have thought that you'll have similar issues on any lightweight aluminium hardtail though.
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Re: New XC race hardtail?

Postby Jean » Sat Nov 13, 2010 8:05 am

http://www.on-one.co.uk/i/q/FROOWHI/on-one-carbon-xc-whippet-frame

Dunno what it's like, but it fits your bill. On-one do full built bikes too.
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Re: New XC race hardtail?

Postby alchemist » Sat Nov 13, 2010 9:15 am

Ibis Tranny or Niner Air9 Carbon if you want clown shoes...
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Re: New XC race hardtail?

Postby hung » Sat Nov 13, 2010 11:55 am

I have a GT Zasker Carbon hardtail

luv it to bits

much nicer to ride than my over priced Cannonwhale dually
Colnago C59 for the long road
Cervelo S2 for the short road
GT Carbon Pro for the mountain
Kono Kula deluxe / slicks for the foot paths
Cannondale dually for the big stuff

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Re: New XC race hardtail?

Postby ldrcycles » Sat Nov 13, 2010 2:29 pm

Thanks for that, do you know if the Zaskar is available as a bare frame? The new Scott Scale is apparently really smooth too. Popped into my LBS today and they have a Merida FLX 3000 frame in my size, aluminium front triangle with carbon 'flex-stays'. Looks like what i'm after and $350, anyone have any experience of this frame?
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Re: New XC race hardtail?

Postby nayfen » Mon Nov 15, 2010 6:06 pm

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=45914

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might be an option? 1020grams for frame pretty light too.
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Re: New XC race hardtail?

Postby ldrcycles » Mon Nov 15, 2010 6:55 pm

nayfen wrote:http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=45914

Image

might be an option? 1020grams for frame pretty light too.


PREEEEEETTY *drools.
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Re: New XC race hardtail?

Postby ldrcycles » Mon Nov 15, 2010 7:07 pm

and it even has V brake mounts?! Methinks im in lurve!
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Re: New XC race hardtail?

Postby Jean » Mon Nov 15, 2010 7:11 pm

'Tis nice. Someone around here was very happy with their Beone carbon road frame FWIW.
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Re: New XC race hardtail?

Postby Alistair » Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:18 am

ldrcycles wrote:I'm looking at upgrading my bike from the Fankenstein i'm on at the moment (a $400 GT i got as a frame then built it to a sub10kg by going REALLY out there with the spec, thumb shifters, rigid forks, road front mech etc.) It's great but being a heavy (2040g) aluminium frame the rear end is SERIOUSLY harsh.
What would people recommend in the way of carbon frames/complete bikes? I am aware the aluminium Giant XTC is as light as some carbon frames and i'm definitely looking at it. Definitely not interested in a dually, i'd rather go fast than be comfortable :-p.


Which GT are you riding? I have a GT framed mongrel that i built up a year ago to get back into riding. I used decent bits on it and a nice set of wheels, but when i bought another hardtail i struggled to get comfortable. I can't work out now if the large GT is smaller than the new bike, or maybe the top tube is shorter. Regardless, it is sharp and playful despite being a bit heavy and more basic than other bikes i ride.

It is something to think about if you are buying off the net or without an opportunity to test ride.

My vote is for a Zaskar.
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Re: New XC race hardtail?

Postby tim on skin » Sat Nov 27, 2010 11:08 pm

ldrcycles wrote:I'm looking at upgrading my bike from the Fankenstein i'm on at the moment (a $400 GT i got as a frame then built it to a sub10kg by going REALLY out there with the spec, thumb shifters, rigid forks, road front mech etc.) It's great but being a heavy (2040g) aluminium frame the rear end is SERIOUSLY harsh.
What would people recommend in the way of carbon frames/complete bikes? I am aware the aluminium Giant XTC is as light as some carbon frames and i'm definitely looking at it. Definitely not interested in a dually, i'd rather go fast than be comfortable :-p.




have a look at the commencal skin.
the 2010 skin 1 is sub 10kg out of box large frame is about 1.2kg
great 8) ride
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Re: New XC race hardtail?

Postby Gabe » Mon Nov 29, 2010 9:44 am

ldrcycles wrote: Definitely not interested in a dually, i'd rather go fast than be comfortable :-p.


Is this really true...? I'm finding that on the trails my dually definitely seems faster than my hardtail, and considering you can set the dampening and rebound for the exact conditions wouldn't you always be able to get more speed off-road on a dually? I always thought DS was more about good handling (ergo more speed) than comfort, that's the main reason I bought mine... or is this a misconception?

Hope I'm not hijacking the thread...
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Re: New XC race hardtail?

Postby ozynigma » Sat Dec 11, 2010 6:26 am

Gabe wrote:Hope I'm not hijacking the thread...


Yeah, it probably deserves its own thread.

There are reasons the pro racers mostly race hardtails in world cup events. They are lighter, stiffer and more energy efficient and hence responsive to rider inputs. So generally with a good rider, a hardtail will be faster.

On a hardtail your legs are your rear suspension, which means they have to work harder and you need to spend more time out of the saddle absorbing the hits downhill and powering up climbs.

Comfort is only an issue for either type of bike if you insist on sitting on the saddle every where you ride (aka dual suspension laziness).
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Re: New XC race hardtail?

Postby toolonglegs » Sat Dec 11, 2010 6:34 am

ozynigma wrote:
Gabe wrote:Hope I'm not hijacking the thread...


Yeah, it probably deserves its own thread.

There are reasons the pro racers mostly race hardtails in world cup events. They are lighter, stiffer and more energy efficient and hence responsive to rider inputs. So generally with a good rider, a hardtail will be faster.

On a hardtail your legs are your rear suspension, which means they have to work harder and you need to spend more time out of the saddle absorbing the hits downhill and powering up climbs.

Comfort is only an issue for either type of bike if you insist on sitting on the saddle every where you ride (aka dual suspension laziness).


Remember thou that most world cup mtb races are not on overly technical courses...discounting the climbing aspect they are a walk in park to your common garden variety aussie club xc race.
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Re: New XC race hardtail?

Postby trailgumby » Sat Dec 11, 2010 10:51 am

Developing that theme further, most Euro marathon events appear to be on groomed fire roads.

It's a clue - I think - that most 24 solo events in North America and Oz these days are won on duallies.

While I enjoy riding my hardail, the lower back starts to feel it on longer rides. The longer the ride, the better I go with less fatugue on a dually.
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Re: New XC race hardtail?

Postby Gabe » Sun Dec 12, 2010 5:57 pm

That makes sense to me, I could see some speed benifit with hardtail on light/moderate trails but when it gets rough, the rear just doesn't connect as well. Especially going downhill over bumps at speed, which is bad if you need to corner or brake.
Not to say that you shouldn't get a hardtail if it suits your purpose, I just thought it was a bit misleading to say that they were faster when it does depend somewhat on where you're riding
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Re: New XC race hardtail?

Postby alchemist » Sun Dec 12, 2010 6:55 pm

toolonglegs wrote:Remember thou that most world cup mtb races are not on overly technical courses...discounting the climbing aspect they are a walk in park to your common garden variety aussie club xc race.

Have you ridden either recently?

trailgumby wrote:Developing that theme further, most Euro marathon events appear to be on groomed fire roads.

So are most aussie events

trailgumby wrote:It's a clue - I think - that most 24 solo events in North America and Oz these days are won on duallies.

Well I know of one winner that bemoans the fact that his sponsor doesn't have a hardtail in its range.
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Re: New XC race hardtail?

Postby toolonglegs » Sun Dec 12, 2010 7:21 pm

I haven't ridden a bike in 8 months...so I will have to say no :| .
Might as well make your point.
If aussie club course's have become tame then that is real shame.
Edit:maybe I should show my age :D ...I remember pretty hardcore XC courses at Waterfall,Bargo,Megalong Valley,Ourimbah,Oxford Falls (on the old downhill course,no wonder I went thru half a dozen frames)...also around the airfield was fun in torrential downpour before the sydney world cup with a lot of proriders...but for a big guy like me you couldn't beat Wonderland on the M4...nearly flat!.
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Re: New XC race hardtail?

Postby ireland57 » Mon Dec 13, 2010 6:34 pm

I've heard this a lot and I just don't understand it.........that hardtails are faster than duallies in XCraces.

If they are comparable in weight (and they can be given the lightweight shocks available) how can a rear end continually bouncing off the ground brake and accelerate better and faster than a frame which is placing the back wheel on the ground most of the time?

If that were true all motorcross bikes and offroad buggies would be hardtails too. There's no difference between any of those machines and a mountain bike. They are pushed across the ground by an engine planting a tyre. The tyre has to make contact to be quick.

Maybe there's more to it. Like setup.....bob, etc.
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Re: New XC race hardtail?

Postby Nobody » Mon Dec 13, 2010 6:59 pm

ireland57 wrote:If they are comparable in weight (and they can be given the lightweight shocks available) how can a rear end continually bouncing off the ground brake and accelerate better and faster than a frame which is placing the back wheel on the ground most of the time?
The rear end isn't continually bouncing while under power on the flat or up hill due to the low pressure in a relatively large tyre (for the rider weight and power) acting as suspension. On the flat we are talking relatively low speeds and low power compared with motorbikes. As cycling is relatively low rpm/cadence, bobbing is going to be absorbed by the shocks (especially the rear) to some degree and also a FS will generally be heavier.
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Re: New XC race hardtail?

Postby Gabe » Mon Dec 13, 2010 7:49 pm

Nobody wrote:
ireland57 wrote:If they are comparable in weight (and they can be given the lightweight shocks available) how can a rear end continually bouncing off the ground brake and accelerate better and faster than a frame which is placing the back wheel on the ground most of the time?

The rear end isn't continually bouncing while under power on the flat or up hill

Yes but we're talking about rough terrain, i.e. what the DS is designed for. Taking your argument further, you would be forced to say that we should all be using road bikes. Duallies just build on top of what hardtail MTBs were designed for.
As cycling is relatively low rpm/cadence, bobbing is going to be absorbed by the shocks (especially the rear) to some degree and also a FS will generally be heavier.

If you know how to ride efficently then the bobbing is negligible, and I find that the front actually bobs more than the rear. I also have to say that even on the road my dually is still fairly quick for a MTB. The weight factor is also rather slight. By all means there are tracks and trails where I could see a hardtail being better, but there has to be a good reason why so many serious riders will buy duallies and why you see so many on the rougher trails.

I dunno, I'm beginning to think that maybe some people just have a thing for hating duallies without really having a good reason
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Re: New XC race hardtail?

Postby Nobody » Mon Dec 13, 2010 8:03 pm

Gabe wrote:
Nobody wrote:
ireland57 wrote:If they are comparable in weight (and they can be given the lightweight shocks available) how can a rear end continually bouncing off the ground brake and accelerate better and faster than a frame which is placing the back wheel on the ground most of the time?

The rear end isn't continually bouncing while under power on the flat or up hill

Yes but we're talking about rough terrain, i.e. what the DS is designed for. Taking your argument further, you would be forced to say that we should all be using road bikes. Duallies just build on top of what hardtail MTBs were designed for.
As cycling is relatively low rpm/cadence, bobbing is going to be absorbed by the shocks (especially the rear) to some degree and also a FS will generally be heavier.

If you know how to ride efficently then the bobbing is negligible, and I find that the front actually bobs more than the rear. I also have to say that even on the road my dually is still fairly quick for a MTB. The weight factor is also rather slight. By all means there are tracks and trails where I could see a hardtail being better, but there has to be a good reason why so many serious riders will buy duallies and why you see so many on the rougher trails.

I dunno, I'm beginning to think that maybe some people just have a thing for hating duallies without really having a good reason
I'm just trying to answer a question raised as to why some people or racers would favour a hardtail. I'm not a DS hater and I"m not going to argue the point. Find someone else to argue with. :roll:
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Re: New XC race hardtail?

Postby alchemist » Mon Dec 13, 2010 8:08 pm

toolonglegs wrote:Edit:maybe I should show my age :D ...I remember pretty hardcore XC courses


Waterfall, - Gone
Bargo, - Gone
Megalong Valley - Gone
Ourimbah - The current course is hardly technical
Oxford Falls - Gone

To that I'll add
Arcadia - Gone
Yellowmundee - Some of the more technical sections have gone

From talking to people that race them some of the WC courses are a lot tougher than they look.
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Re: New XC race hardtail?

Postby Mulger bill » Mon Dec 13, 2010 11:46 pm

On non technical courses, there's less to go wrong on a hardtail.
...whatever the road rules, self-preservation is the absolute priority for a cyclist when mixing it with motorised traffic.
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