Cheap tubeless

[Kalgrm]

The one thing that is concerning me now is what happens when I want to replace my tyre? It looks like I'll need to buy another 20" inner tube each time a new tyre is fitted, since the current inner will pull inside the rim when the tyre is removed. Ah well, cross that bridge when I get to it, even if I have to walk across it.

Cheers,
Graeme

Okay, I've answered my own question now: the 20" tube retains its shape without the tyre in place, so it stays there while you put another tyre over the top. Evidently, the pressure of inflated tyres over time is enough to press the tube strip into the rim. It stays in place and you simply reuse it.

I found this out a few days ago when I replaced my old worn rear tyre with the front and put a new front tyre on.

are you saying Graeme that you put over 200ml in each wheel?...stans I think i put less thsn 50 mls?.

And a good thing I did too. The front tyre was completely dry (still moist, but no sloshing of sealant), with a thin layer of dry latex around the whole tyre inner. The rear still had a dessert spoon or so of thick sealant (reduced?) and a nice knob of latex about the size of a golf ball (not shaped so nicely though).

I've only used about 80ml in each tyre this time, so we'll see how that goes over time.

Cheers,
Graeme

(PS - Anyone in Perth want to try tubeless? I've got two spare 20" tubes (Schraeder) and more than enough sealant to share. It'll cost you a total $10 for the tubes.)

[Deanj]

Out of interest, what pressures have you ended up running Graeme?

I'm 26 front and 34 rear at the moment.

[Kalgrm]

Changed your name! That'll make things easier.

I'm running 28psi F&R at the moment, but come the summer when the gravel gets bad, I'll probably go down to 25 front and 26 rear.

I'm currently 85kg with all gear and my tyres are 2.35" (Geax Lobo Loco in a very sticky compound). The bike weighs something (I don't know - 13kg?).

Cheers,
Graeme

[Deanj]

Out on a ride tomorrow so will try lower in the rear.

Not really had the chance to experiment to much, have also been a little over cautious with the rear as its very rocky where I ride.

[Kalgrm]

I'd suggest taking your hand pump on the ride and stopping every five minutes to drop the pressure a bit. When you think you might be hitting the rims, pump the tyres back up a few psi. Then when you get home, work out what pressure you stopped at and use that as guidance in future rides.

I can't see myself going below 25 psi, but I was told last weekend that Tim Bennett (a local elite racer and ~60kg) had his tyres absurdly low in a sandy mountain bike race last year. He was the only competitor to ride the whole course - everyone else got off and walked for some of the track. He ran his 2.5" tyres at 8 psi. So I think you've still got a fair bit of wiggle room at 30 psi.

I related somewhere else the story of riding my MTB on the road with 12 psi in the front recently. I didn't even notice how low it was until I attempted a little hop off the curb, during which there was an alarming amount of squirm. The experience did give me confidence that I'll have few problems dropping the pressure down to 20 psi or less should I so desire.

Cheers,
Graeme

[Deanj]

Dropped it to 32 and will give that a try. The GF is dropping me off at the MTB track before work tomorrow, its a 25km 'ride' home, so I see how brave I get.

8 psi

[trailgumby]

Hi Guys,

Just wondering whether anyone has experience in trying this with Presta valve 20" tubes? I'm not even sure if they're available - but I use Presta on all the other wheelsets I have and would prefer to stay with it.

Of course, if the bead just won't snap into place otherwise then I'll use Schraeder. I have Presta-to-Schrader adapters already, Stan's goop and a compressor.

Thanks for your help.

[MountGower]

Anyone

I virtually never get flats off road. Are the rolling benefits enough to warrant going tubeles?
Your thoughts on non tubeless tyres blistering?
Is it the lower pressures on MTB tyres that allow the use of non specific tyres? ( I've been told that not even the nightmare fit of GP4000 and Campag Scirocco is not tight enough on a road bike).

Graeme

If you had a front puncture just before you removed that tyre, do you think it would have sealed?

Also not forgetting Trailgumby's question in the previous post:

Just wondering whether anyone has experience in trying this with Presta valve 20" tubes?

[Kalgrm]

MG,

If the only benefit of going tubeless was the reduced rolling resistance, then yes, it's worth doing just for that. I also rarely got punctures off-road before going tubeless.

However, the REAL benefit of running reduced pressure is the enhanced handling you get. Traction is much better with the reduced pressures which tubeless systems allow. The tyre conforms to the terrain more easily, so you get less slip and bounce. Fitting tubeless was probably the single best handling upgrade I've ever made on my MTB.

Regarding the question about a puncture immediately before refitting the tyre - yes, it still would have sealed well. The tyre gets a "memory" from being held in place by air pressure for such a long time.

Tyres blistering: it's a known problem with some tyres which are not tubeless-specific, mainly from the Kenda company. Just about every other tyre will perform well when fitted as tubeless. There's a list of suitable tyres on the net somewhere, but I can't be bothered hunting it down right now. It's probably easier to look for tyres that aren't suitable and assume the other tyres are. Google would do it though ....

Yes, the lower pressures being run on MTBs allow just about any tyre/rim combination to work. Road tyres are running 90psi+, and the bead and rims used have to be constructed with higher tolerances.

I answered Trailgumby's question in another thread, but the choice between Presta and Schraeder does not affect the longevity of the system. It only makes it difficult to do the first inflation where the bead hasn't sealed itself yet. You need to get a lot of gas into it quickly to pop the bead into place. If that can be done with Presta valves fitted, everything else will work. Schraeder valves just make it easier to fit a compressor to the valve for a quick burst of air.

Cheers,
Graeme

[MountGower]

Thanks for that, Graeme.

I just want to clarify this question:

Graeme

If you had a front puncture just before you removed that tyre, do you think it would have sealed?

I didn't mean the bead, I meant the actual hole. The question was motivated by this:

The front tyre was completely dry (still moist, but no sloshing of sealant), with a thin layer of dry latex around the whole tyre inner.

Your answer was helpful though. I'm mainly curious about the hole sealing with the sealant in that condition. I think a valid consideration here is how regularly you need to strip out the mess and go again to ensure adequate puncture protection. I was pleased by your report regarding the inner tube remaining in position too. Good news.

This is just about my only reservation now. How regularly do I "service" the tyre to maintain puncture sealability? I'd suggest just topping it up but don't want to upset the weight weenies.

[MichaelB]

Thread necro time ....

Given that TG suggested someone else to look up this thread (and Mount Gower suggesting something similar in another thread), and I'm running tubeless on my roadie, the idea of going tubeless after just one MTB ride was heightened by seeing someone with a flat on the trails we were riding on Sunday.

So, I guess given that I have the requisite sealant stuff at home alreay, I just need a couple of 20" tubes and a sharp knife ?

Is the function of the 20" tube to act as a rim strip (of sorts) and to also aid in keeping the bead of the non tubeless tyre seated ? I presume if you use a specific tubeless tyre, the 20" tube is not required ?

BTW, the tyres on the bike are Maxxis Larsen MiMo

Thanks in advance

Michael B

[trailgumby]

If you already have tubeless rims you can get away without the 20" tubes. If you have welded-joint rims, you just need the fibreglass strapping tape to seal the spoke nipple holes and recycle some Presta valves off some old tubes. Otherwise, you will need the BMX tubes .

You can also use Bontrager rim strips and valves, which are not much more expensive than the tubes. and there's no risk of them getting pulled out of place when you change tyres. Compatibility wil depend on what rims you have, though.

My local bike shop is stocking Schwalbe BMX tubes specifically for backyard tubeless purposes, as they have a removable valve stem, meaning you don't have to take the tyre bead off to refill with sealant later when it dries out.

[MichaelB]

If you already have tubeless rims you can get away without the 20" tubes.

The rims are WTB Speed Disc. A quick google search appears to show that they are not "tubeless", so will need the 20" tube system (or appropriate OTS solution such as Joes Conversion kit ), and it lists the WTB Speed Disc as being one that is appropriate to use this system.

[MountGower]

Michael

Here is my up to the minute experience / take on tubeless.

Personally, I do not want puncture protection because I do not live in a pucture prone city. I will spend more time removing sealant snots than I can possibly save sealing punctures. Then there is the weight of active sealant I do not need.

I use a removeable valve core in the next size down. In my case a Conti MTB26, but there are other options out there. I only put a small amount of sealant in to seal the bead. If I puncture, it's just a simple case of removing the core, putting in a tiny bit of sealant, rotating the hole to the bottom and air up with CO2, top up with a pump and ride away.

If you are in a puncture prone city, you have to weigh up the life of the sealant versus the quantity of punctures. You'll soon know just by asking around how bad your area is. You'll be changing sealant pretty regularly in S.A. during dry, hot summers. If you are getting a lot of thorns, it may be worth having active sealant. It's just not worth it for me and I hate the weeping tyre thing, too.

I'd also suggest avoiding rim strips. The split tube provides an amazing, air tight, burp free, secure fit and I will always use it. UST wheels and tyres are heavy, heavy, heavy and not neccessary at MTB pressures. I have moved to ZTR rims recently, but still use the split tube. The air retention and bead security is amazing.

Good luck. It is dead easy and you won't regret it. The grip is amazing.

[MountGower]

Wow. Just read my posts in this thread. The last one must have been days before conversion. I'd have though I was well in to it by then. No regrets, that's for sure.

[MichaelB]

I use a removeable valve core in the next size down. In my case a Conti MTB26, but there are other options out there. I only put a small amount of sealant in to seal the bead. If I puncture, it's just a simple case of removing the core, putting in a tiny bit of sealant, rotating the hole to the bottom and air up with CO2, top up with a pump and ride away.

With regards to the highlighted bit above, "next size down what ?"

Thanks for the advice MG, sounds feasible - can tuck a small bottle of goop, CO2 and removeable core tool in a saddle bag easily.

Cheers

Michael B

[Mulger bill]

MG runs a 29er Michael, 700c rim for MTB. a 26" tube should give a nice fit for the job.

Shaun

[MichaelB]

MG runs a 29er Michael, 700c rim for MTB. a 26" tube should give a nice fit for the job.

Shaun

Ah ha. Now makes sense.

As my bike runs 26", I'll stick with the recommended 20" tube then for my application.

Thanks Mulger.

[trailgumby]

@MG: a question, if I may. You've had no issues with the split tube pulling out of position when you change tyres?

I've heard from one who guy had this happen, but was wondering whether it's common or this was just a one-off. Not that it's really a hassle cost-wise - tubes are cheap enough.

[MountGower]

Trailgumby

I leave 10mm on each side. I haven't had that problem. Your friend may have trimmed the tube too close and ended up with more of a home made rim strip than anything. When mounting for the first time spray a liberal amount of fairly concentrated soapy water and check that the tube is even before airing up. Trim after airing up.

I don't think you'll ever have this problem. Use the fold or the lines to keep the cut straight and operate on the principal that your fashion concience can be satisfied by trimming closer later, but a bad result requires a new tube. In case you have been looking at the Big Mama, those tyres were mounted for the photos. There is no tube or sealant under there and I do not run the rear tyre backwards either. If you have looked at the OnOne, that is a rushed hatchet job on a Down Hill tube and is now much neater.

I am using a normal grade Conti MTB tube now which is the same thickness as a Welterweight Maxxis tube and has removeable cores. I can't see a 20" tube stetched out to 26" moving on you.

Just incase, I should also mention that while I think the split tube is the way to go, even for bead security, I do not and will not inflate the tyre above 30psi. I run just under 30 rear and just under 25 front. This is heaps and I am heavy. If the low pressure bothers you, remember that if you inflate two identical tyres side by side at 30psi, one tubed and one tubeless, the tubeless tyre would feel significantly firmer and roll and grip way better.

I recently did an 80km ride on the Big Mama with 2.3" Exiwolfs. The first and last 15km was on bitumen. I thought I'd be doing it tough on the way back to the mate's house, but couldn't believe the speed I was doing on those tyres at those pressures.

Sorry, I'm raving on now. Just do it. It's cheap and puts a smile on the dial, especially the first time out. Don't get ripped off by bike shop sealants. Not neccessary. CLICK ME for goop recipies. I've found the rubber specs used by Slime, so my next batch will be entirely my own.

[trailgumby]

Thanks for taking the time mate, much appreciated.

I've been running tubeless for a couple of years now, but mostly with UST rubber which, as you've mentioned, is very heavy. I hadn't thought about the weight of UST rims, but you're no doubt on the money there too (although my Crossmax SLR wheels are pretty light). I've had a non-UST tyre blow off a Crossland UST rim on the front, but that was at less than 20psi.

If I can use lighter non-UST rubber at low pressures on lighter (and less expensive) rims, and give the tyre greater "security of tenure", what's not to like? The only reason for using heavy sidewall UST rubber would then be if the track is a known sidewall tearer - I reckon the non-UST tyres converted to tubeless grip better than their UST equivalent.

I'll look at doing this a bit closer to the race - we've had a few unexpected bills this month. Thanks for sharing your experience.

[MountGower]

Sorry, I got the impression you were thinking about tubeless. You must have it sussed after two years, but if it's weight you want to save, it's up to you how you do it. I just couldn't justify the expense of ditching a UST set up once I had it, so I'd be stuck with it. In all the reading I've done, most of the incidents do seem to come from set ups that have direct contact between tyre and rim, UST or not. I've never tried it though.

I understand the desire for reduced weight when racing too, but I'd have to put up with it until it wore out. Good luck and sorry again for crapping on to the converted. Perhaps something in it for your mate with the sliding tube.

[ireland57]

I switched to "split-tube" tubeless in January this year.
I use 20" bmx tube (wider ones easier to mount up; 1.5" bit narrow; they still work but harder to centre);
Non-UST tyres, "tubed" rims (I.e. Mavic XM117 & Swiss DT ??).

Issues so far:-
Negatives:
one holed tyre couldn't seal up 'cos some dill forgot to add sealant. Can't blame anything for that.
One deflated all by itself while driving up range to ride site. (Still don't know why). Heard loud pop and saw tyre was flat when unloading bike.
Can be hard to air up. (See following notes).
If you often change/test tyres it's a bit of a pain. If using tubes just a quick swap process.
I tried re-using split tubes twice; gave up both times before all my spanners and compressor took up flying lessons. Won't try again.
Apparently shouldn't use over 35 psi (according to a couple of long time tubeless users). I've stuck with that principle.

Postives:-
Haven't had a puncture (had 6 in month before swapping) except for forgetting sealant and have ridden many miles on very rough tracks with pressures around 22 - 28 psi.
Tyres feel great at low psi's now. Ran a tube on day when tyre popped; it never felt as good all day.
In that time 4 riders I've been riding beside have destroyed UST tyres while my cheap, shabby setup rode on.
Love the feel that I have a reasonably puncture resistant system.

Method of seating:-
I use soapy water or sealant (only used Stan's; can't comment on others) to help seat tyres; an "air duster" with the valve removed. This has helped enormously with seating tyres and is very quick.

The above may change with time but for the moment that's what it is.

I love it.

Forgot.... I've used Kenda Nevegal & Karma and Mavic Crossmark, LarsenTT, 2.35 Ignitor & 2.1 Ignitor.

[Mulger bill]

I'm starting to be convinced about tubeless.

Any recommendations for the best how to around?

[trailgumby]

@MG, no worries, your information was still excellent and will be passed on to a few of my riding mates who've enquired recently. I've also got a couple of non-UST wheelsets in the household still. The link to goop recipies is very handy. Using Stans at the moment, but as we've all found, it's expensive and dries out.

TBH, I'd prefer to be able to ride tubeless without using UST rubber becasue the weight savings are significant (2-300g a tyre right at the edge of the wheel where it has the most effect), but the idea of burping one off 25km from anywhere concerns me. If your way of doing things is more secure, you have my attention.