XTR M9000 11 speed

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XTR M9000 11 speed

Postby singlespeedscott » Sun Apr 13, 2014 9:58 am

New XTR -

http://www.bikeradar.com/au/mtb/news/ar ... ook-40683/

http://www.bikerumor.com/2014/04/11/fir ... tb-groups/

I'm not a super tech head, I really dont rate 11 speed for the dirt (bring back 8 speed I say :lol: ), but the stuff I really like -

1 x single ring drive train that uses a standard HG cassette hub with some nice steps in the gear change pattern;

lower q-factor crank arms;

a super low profile shadow rear derailleur with a simpler clutch mech; and

a stupid low 22x40 on the triple, a cliff climber if I have ever seen one.
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by BNA » Sat May 31, 2014 10:22 am

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Re: XTR M9000 11 speed

Postby singlespeedscott » Sat May 31, 2014 10:22 am

And now it's digitial and finally has "synchro shift" that has the front and rear derailleurs been controlled by the one shifter and and as such giveing you sequential shifting. Something that Di2 should of done on the road -

http://www.bikeradar.com/au/mtb/news/ar ... kes-41184/

http://velonews.competitor.com/2014/05/ ... xtr_330061

http://www.bikerumor.com/2014/05/30/shi ... a-shifter/
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Re: XTR M9000 11 speed

Postby Heff » Sat May 31, 2014 9:20 pm

Will be interesting to hear stories on functionality as it filters into the market. Aesthetically looks like a dogs brekkie though. I reckon Sram have it all over Shimano in 1x department.
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Re: XTR M9000 11 speed

Postby Duck! » Sat May 31, 2014 10:21 pm

SRAM's solution to their pretty ordinary front shifting was to get rid of it.... :mrgreen:

Shimano's philosophy, and I agree with it, is that 1x is not a be-all and end-all drive train, and trying to get a wide range in the limits of a single ring compromises efficiency. Yes 1x works for a lot of riders in a lot of situations, but for varied terrain where a greater gear range is called for, then 2x or 3x is the only way to get it, and a slightly tighter cassette maintains the efficiency of smoother shift increments.

I've sat down & plotted out the gears of all possible combinations factoring in a 27.5" wheel size (my probable next bike build) against my current set of 3x10 (11-34 cassette, 24-32-42 crank) on 26", and considering how & where I ride I really the look of the 3x11! Yes the gear spread is massive, but there is an incredible lack of duplication through the range, just lots of really nice, slick intervals. A couple of the 2x options look OK, but the Synchro would get a much heavier workout shuffling between rings, and there's more duplication or near-duplication of ratios. Figure that out! :P

One thing is certain, from my own standpoint, and that is I need at least the range I currently have (and could do with a bit lower at times), and 1x anything won't get me anywhere near that.
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Re: XTR M9000 11 speed

Postby Heff » Sat May 31, 2014 10:40 pm

If you can't get up and down hills on a 11x42 dinner plate with a single up front, it's time to start riding a dutch commuter on the shared bike path
: )
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Re: XTR M9000 11 speed

Postby Duck! » Sat May 31, 2014 10:59 pm

34% gradients with almost-40-y.o. knees stuffed from too much running as a kid? I'll have my granny rings thanks. :-)
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Re: XTR M9000 11 speed

Postby Heff » Sat May 31, 2014 11:55 pm

Duck! I've driven up the steepest street in the world and that is a 35% gradient, it's Baldwin St. in Dunedin NZ. If you are riding up showtime like this, I would love to know where it is? Your knees are either fine, or you enjoy extreme masochism.
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Re: XTR M9000 11 speed

Postby Duck! » Sun Jun 01, 2014 12:46 am

Arthurs Seat, on the Mornington Peninsula just out of Melbourne. The road climb is only about 10% average (17% in parts), but the off-road fire breaks straight up the face of the hill are sheer brutality. 22/34 (back when I ran 3x9) on 26" was barely low enough. Yet elsewhere on the hill there are long open descents that just don't work with the twiddly litte ring needed for the climbs. 2x can work, but 3x will be better. :wink:
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Re: XTR M9000 11 speed

Postby singlespeedscott » Sun Jun 01, 2014 4:30 am

I myself prefer the simplicity of 1x systems and have the gearing of my 1x9 29er with a 34x12-36 more then enough for where I ride. But I must say the synchro system is very cool and will be great on the road. For the dirt I think I will stick with mechanical.
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Re: XTR M9000 11 speed

Postby bychosis » Sun Jun 01, 2014 7:56 am

I've been running 1x9 and find that it's fine. It's not ideal on the road because the gear spacing is a bit more hit and miss for gradually undulating terrain, however in MTB trails where you often go from up to down in a short distance having a not quite right gear is not an issue. Making the changes for short sharp down to up isn't hard, the shifter will let you change 3 gears in one hit going to a large rear cog, a few clicks on the downs gets you into higher gears easily. Don't think in need 11 speed yet, 10 would probably suffice.

I'm not sure about an electronic system that shifts both front and rear with one set of buttons for a 3x system. It'll mean a lot of button presses and will be a bit hit and miss to get into the right gear for upcoming terrain where there are short sharp changes. Changing several gears and knowing that you need to change back in a few seconds might confuse a computer on a double or triple setup, not as much an issue on a single front. I'm thinking the terrain where you like to hold it in the middle ring for a bit using the whole cassette, then when it starts to go down you hold it in the big ring knowing what is coming up.
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Re: XTR M9000 11 speed

Postby Duck! » Sun Jun 01, 2014 9:55 am

Synchro Shift will actually reduce the number of button presses; when you change chainrings of a mechanical setup, you probably do a "corrective" shift the other way at the rear to reduce the ratio jump (used to be known as Alpine Shifting). That's two shifter pushes that need to be carefully timed to minimise crunching. Synchro does that at programmed, customiseable intervals with one button push. As for "confusing the computer", I don't think so. I've played around with the road groups often enough, including performing manually-controlled synchro shifts, and it will perform as asked every time. With the multi-shifting at the rear turned up to its fastest setting, it will outrun the rider's reaction time. Of course you can run fully manual if you prefer; the system can be swtiched on the fly (apparently) between manual and two different synchro sequences.
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Re: XTR M9000 11 speed

Postby Jean » Mon Jun 02, 2014 10:37 am

singlespeedscott wrote:For the dirt I think I will stick with mechanical.


I'm in no hurry to go electronic for either use, but when I saw the news about the electronic XTR I thought it made a lot more sense than for road groups. The precision and supposed oomph of the shifting seems more suitable for MTB's 'arduous conditions' than general road riding.
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Re: XTR M9000 11 speed

Postby mitchy_ » Mon Jun 02, 2014 10:59 am

bychosis wrote:I'm not sure about an electronic system that shifts both front and rear with one set of buttons for a 3x system. It'll mean a lot of button presses and will be a bit hit and miss to get into the right gear for upcoming terrain where there are short sharp changes. Changing several gears and knowing that you need to change back in a few seconds might confuse a computer on a double or triple setup, not as much an issue on a single front.


you wont confuse the computer... each derailleur goes up or down, it's not rocket surgery.
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Re: XTR M9000 11 speed

Postby bychosis » Mon Jun 02, 2014 12:38 pm

Might not be rocket surgery, but an automatic car gearbox gets it 'wrong' fairly often because it doesn't know what is coming up. The other di2 MTB thread has explained it as well.

I now understand that there are different synchro shift modes which would alleviate what I perceive as a problem. I guess it would take some getting used to, and in practice wouldn't be long before the rider can anticipate what gear is going to be selected
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Re: XTR M9000 11 speed

Postby mitchy_ » Mon Jun 02, 2014 12:48 pm

bychosis wrote:Might not be rocket surgery, but an automatic car gearbox gets it 'wrong' fairly often because it doesn't know what is coming up. The other di2 MTB thread has explained it as well.

I now understand that there are different synchro shift modes which would alleviate what I perceive as a problem. I guess it would take some getting used to, and in practice wouldn't be long before the rider can anticipate what gear is going to be selected


an automatic gearbox is exactly that though, automatic.
XTR Di2 is more akin to a DSG gearbox in that it's an electronically actuated manual drivetrain. you still tell it what to do, it just removes the slow speeds and missed shifts that go with human input.
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Re: XTR M9000 11 speed

Postby bychosis » Mon Jun 02, 2014 2:33 pm

Yup, I understand it's manual, but it will automatically select which chainring to use (unless you get the second set of shifters for the front). The computer will not know which way you are going to shift next and could shift the front when it doesn't need to. Eg you go up a gear or two as you descend into a climb, as you shift up the computer decides to put you in the big ring in preparation for the next up shift, but you hit the climb and shift down. Now it has you in the big ring when it probably should have stayed in the small ring in preparation for the climb and a few downshifts as you climb losing momentum. Humans can pick this, computer can't yet.

I'll also add here that I have no intention of going to di2 for my bike, I'm happy with 9spd for now. I'm interested in the tech though.
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Re: XTR M9000 11 speed

Postby singlespeedscott » Mon Jun 02, 2014 4:04 pm

bychosis wrote:Yup, I understand it's manual, but it will automatically select which chainring to use (unless you get the second set of shifters for the front). The computer will not know which way you are going to shift next and could shift the front when it doesn't need to. Eg you go up a gear or two as you descend into a climb, as you shift up the computer decides to put you in the big ring in preparation for the next up shift, but you hit the climb and shift down. Now it has you in the big ring when it probably should have stayed in the small ring in preparation for the climb and a few downshifts as you climb losing momentum. Humans can pick this, computer can't yet.

I'll also add here that I have no intention of going to di2 for my bike, I'm happy with 9spd for now. I'm interested in the tech though.

Yes but all you need to do is downshift in less than a second and you will be in the right gear. I think you can also program shift patterns.
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Re: XTR M9000 11 speed

Postby mitchy_ » Mon Jun 02, 2014 4:08 pm

bychosis wrote:Yup, I understand it's manual, but it will automatically select which chainring to use (unless you get the second set of shifters for the front). The computer will not know which way you are going to shift next and could shift the front when it doesn't need to. Eg you go up a gear or two as you descend into a climb, as you shift up the computer decides to put you in the big ring in preparation for the next up shift, but you hit the climb and shift down. Now it has you in the big ring when it probably should have stayed in the small ring in preparation for the climb and a few downshifts as you climb losing momentum. Humans can pick this, computer can't yet.

I'll also add here that I have no intention of going to di2 for my bike, I'm happy with 9spd for now. I'm interested in the tech though.


it will upshift you to the next logical gear in it's upshift pattern, which may happen to be one up on the front and one down on the back. if you shift down, it will take you back down to the next logical gear on it's downshift pattern.
i'll generally grab a handful of gears downwards ready for a climb, so be it using a cable or electronically actuated shifter, it's going to achieve similar results.

that said, you can do it all 'full manual' if you want/dont trust the computer. best of both worlds really..
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Re: XTR M9000 11 speed

Postby Duck! » Mon Jun 02, 2014 5:14 pm

The computer is not trying to guess anything; it shifts in a preset sequence solely in response to what you tell it to do with the shifter.

At certain points through the sequence, rather than grabbing the next rear sprocket, the next shift will change chainring, and simultaneously "backshift" a cog at the rear to reduce the ratio jump. Because it's a preset sequence, it will make that shift at that point in the order every time, not whenever it feels like. The upward and downward chainring shifts are at different points; when going through the upshift sequence it will keep you in the smaller ring further into the middle of the cassette, while downshifting will (unless you program it otherwise) take you all the way across to the big sprocket before downshifting at the front.

There's also provision for two Synchro sequence maps (in addition to manual), so you can have different front shift points to suit different terrains; you could have a climbing-oriented map, which on a 2x could hold the small ring for more gears through the upshift range, and drop sooner through the downshifts, or on a 3x with a small/middle bias; and a flat/descending map with a big ring bias on 2x, and middle/big bias on 3x.
Last edited by Duck! on Mon Jun 02, 2014 8:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: XTR M9000 11 speed

Postby trailgumby » Mon Jun 02, 2014 6:23 pm

Heff wrote:If you can't get up and down hills on a 11x42 dinner plate with a single up front, it's time to start riding a dutch commuter on the shared bike path
: )

Come ride Cascades at Belrose and do the 4 Gates, and then say that again. :-P
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Re: XTR M9000 11 speed

Postby singlespeedscott » Tue Jun 03, 2014 9:24 am

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Re: XTR M9000 11 speed

Postby silentbutdeadly » Tue Jun 03, 2014 11:32 am

Way outside my food group as I don't need an 11-40 cassette in our terrain (my race cassette is 11-28 10 spd fed by a 30T front ring) and the eye-watering cost of XTR in general means that I'm not a player for anything other than a rear 10 spd XTR shifter.

But it's nice to know they exist...
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Re: XTR M9000 11 speed

Postby singlespeedscott » Tue Jun 03, 2014 11:36 am

silentbutdeadly wrote:Way outside my food group as I don't need an 11-40 cassette in our terrain (my race cassette is 11-28 10 spd fed by a 30T front ring) and the eye-watering cost of XTR in general means that I'm not a player for anything other than a rear 10 spd XTR shifter.

But it's nice to know they exist...

Agreed.
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Re: XTR M9000 11 speed

Postby TDC » Tue Jun 24, 2014 4:03 pm

singlespeedscott wrote:
silentbutdeadly wrote:Way outside my food group as I don't need an 11-40 cassette in our terrain (my race cassette is 11-28 10 spd fed by a 30T front ring) and the eye-watering cost of XTR in general means that I'm not a player for anything other than a rear 10 spd XTR shifter.

But it's nice to know they exist...

Agreed.


$250+ for 11 sp XTR cassette alone...ouch
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Re: XTR M9000 11 speed

Postby mitchy_ » Tue Jun 24, 2014 4:30 pm

TDC wrote:
singlespeedscott wrote:
silentbutdeadly wrote:Way outside my food group as I don't need an 11-40 cassette in our terrain (my race cassette is 11-28 10 spd fed by a 30T front ring) and the eye-watering cost of XTR in general means that I'm not a player for anything other than a rear 10 spd XTR shifter.

But it's nice to know they exist...

Agreed.


$250+ for 11 sp XTR cassette alone...ouch


top of the wazza cassettes have always been in that ball park... you obviously haven't seen the reported ~$800-900 price tag for the rear derailleur though have you?
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