Deore XT BR-M8000 vs Acera M395

icicic
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Deore XT BR-M8000 vs Acera M395

Postby icicic » Mon Feb 27, 2017 12:32 pm

I'm putting together a cargo bike that will carry a couple of hundred kilos down some steep hills, so I want good brakes.

I can get the Deore XT BR-M8000 for about $60 below the Acera M395.

I'd love some thoughts from experienced MTB riders.

Thanks

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Re: Deore XT BR-M8000 vs Acera M395

Postby silentbutdeadly » Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:00 pm

XT is very nice. Can't say for sure whether they are worth twice as much as the Acera brakes but I know I'd prefer to run the XTs. Bear in mind that brakes also depend on pads and rotors as part of the system...

Torpedo7 have the XTs for 108 per end plus shipping at the moment while Cycling Deal have the Acera's for 99 a set plus shipping.
Ours is not to reason why...merely to point and giggle

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Re: Deore XT BR-M8000 vs Acera M395

Postby RonK » Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:13 pm

Deore XT is a considerably higher spec than Acera, so why wouldn't you buy them if they are $60 less?

For stopping power you will want to fit your cargo bike with large diameter rotors.
Last edited by RonK on Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Deore XT BR-M8000 vs Acera M395

Postby eldavo » Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:17 pm

RonK wrote:Deore XT is a considerably higher spec than Acera, so why wouldn't you by them for $60 less?


It's a trick question.

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Re: Deore XT BR-M8000 vs Acera M395

Postby icicic » Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:20 pm

lol Yes I figured that. It's just that the ratings I've read put them closer and sometimes, after a bit of use, people find that problems can arise.

One other thing is that the Deore come with resin discs which I've never used. Have you used them?

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Re: Deore XT BR-M8000 vs Acera M395

Postby RonK » Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:22 pm

I think you mean they come with resin pads - but you can use whichever pads you prefer.
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Re: Deore XT BR-M8000 vs Acera M395

Postby eldavo » Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:35 pm

Whichever brake you use:

- Get the biggest rotors that fit with correct adaptors insalled for full pad contact.
- Keep spare pads.
- Don't contaminate the rotors or pads with handling contact or lubricants.
- Keep mindful of "good normal operation" and if any change to address.
- Monitor pads wear.
- Practice emergency foot braking, see my latest instagram video from sig link for "right foot on rear tyre" example. See the #1 plate kid demo the Superman emergency brake method in the intro of On Any Sunday.

from 54sec mark below...

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Re: Deore XT BR-M8000 vs Acera M395

Postby Duck! » Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:50 pm

Acera only take resin compound pads - metal pads to suit are not made. Deore & above have the option of metal compound pads, which need to be used with compatible rotors; cheaper rotors are softer and will rapidly wear with the harsher pads. Metal pads offer less initial bite but greater overall stopping power than resin, therefore better modulation (resin tend to be a bit grabby). Metal also withstand high temperatures considerably better; resin are prone to glazing, resulting in fade and a lot of noise. Given the cargo bike is likely to be somewhat heavily loaded, the ability to use the better metal pads makes the XTs (or damn-near identical M7000 SLX or very similar but previous generation M615 Deore) a no-brainer.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: Deore XT BR-M8000 vs Acera M395

Postby icicic » Mon Feb 27, 2017 2:21 pm

Hmmmm, this is not the spot to reply. D'oh
Last edited by icicic on Mon Feb 27, 2017 3:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Deore XT BR-M8000 vs Acera M395

Postby singlespeedscott » Mon Feb 27, 2017 3:05 pm

XT all the way. A trouble free brake for me
Image

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Re: Deore XT BR-M8000 vs Acera M395

Postby icicic » Mon Feb 27, 2017 3:40 pm

eldavo wrote:Whichever brake you use:

- Get the biggest rotors that fit with correct adaptors insalled for full pad contact.
- Keep spare pads.
- Don't contaminate the rotors or pads with handling contact or lubricants.
- Keep mindful of "good normal operation" and if any change to address.
- Monitor pads wear.
- Practice emergency foot braking, see my latest instagram video from sig link for "right foot on rear tyre" example. See the #1 plate kid demo the Superman emergency brake method in the intro of On Any Sunday.

from 54sec mark below...


lol, that superman move is a ripper. I'd like to see someone pull it off on a Yuba, but I think we'd need to get a real superman on my Yuba when it's fully loaded.

So, I've bought the XT set I was asking about but it only comes with 160mm rotors so I'm buying larger rotors today. I'm aware that more braking power has to be used to the rear rather than front on a cargo bike, and I've seen where people use a 160mmin front and a 180 in rear, so because of my loads and hills and I thought I'll put a 180mm up front and 203mm on the back. Both being "XT-Saint RT86 Ice-Tech 6-Bolt" rotor. That sounds good to me, but is it?

When everything arrives, I'll do most of the install then take the Yuba to Glow Worm (my retailer) and pay them to look after the longer rear hose I'll need and to give my beginner's set up a look over.

One other thing though is that I know I need Shimano adaptors but because I'm new to DBs I don't know what is what. I know I need adaptors front and back but which adaptors do I need. I know I'm looking for something that is 180, and something that is 203 but the rest is a blur. On the page I'm searching now it mentions

Shimano Mount Adaptor Front Post to Post,
Shimano XTR Mount Adaptor Rear IS,
Shimano Mount Adaptor Rear Post to IS 203mm, Shimano Mount Adaptor Rear Post to IS and
Brand-X Disc Brake Adaptor - POST to POST

So for a Yuba, can you tell me what is what?

Thanks again,

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Re: Deore XT BR-M8000 vs Acera M395

Postby icicic » Mon Feb 27, 2017 4:42 pm

Duck! wrote: Deore & above have the option of metal compound pads, which need to be used with compatible rotors; cheaper rotors are softer and will rapidly wear with the harsher pads. Metal pads offer less initial bite but greater overall stopping power than resin, therefore better modulation (resin tend to be a bit grabby). Metal also withstand high temperatures considerably better; resin are prone to glazing, resulting in fade and a lot of noise. Given the cargo bike is likely to be somewhat heavily loaded, the ability to use the better metal pads makes the XTs (or damn-near identical M7000 SLX or very similar but previous generation M615 Deore) a no-brainer.


Thanks for all that Duck

I've bought the Deore XT set and I'll probably buy some metal pads to replace the resin that they come with.

Now I'm looking to buy the rotors. Probably "Shimano XT/Saint RT86 Ice-Tech 6-Bolt Rotors" which I found on special at . I'm thinking 180mm up front and 203mm down back because everyone says that on a cargo bike you need more stopping power down back but someone suggested that Yuba might void the warantee if I use rotors greater than 180mm so I'm waiting on a reply.

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Re: Deore XT BR-M8000 vs Acera M395

Postby Duck! » Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:24 pm

Not sure wht you'd put the bigger rotor on the back, because the front brake provides somewhere on the high side of 80% of the total brake power. And given the setup of the cargo bikes I've seen, the geometry & weight distribution is even less prone than a normal bike to want to chuck you over the front if you get too nutso grabbing fistfuls of brake.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: Deore XT BR-M8000 vs Acera M395

Postby icicic » Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:29 pm

Duck! wrote:Not sure wht you'd put the bigger rotor on the back, because the front brake provides somewhere on the high side of 80% of the total brake power. And given the setup of the cargo bikes I've seen, the geometry & weight distribution is even less prone than a normal bike to want to chuck you over the front if you get too nutso grabbing fistfuls of brake.


I'm just going by what all the experienced Yuba people have told me. They all say the same thing which is that whereas on most bikes the majority of work is done wit the front wheel, on a Yuba, you have to brake harder with the back wheel to stop the rear from coming round. People at the shop, distributors, manufacturers and posts on forums like this one

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =2&t=37560

But if I discover that they're all wrong, I guess I'll reverse it and let you know. :D

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Re: Deore XT BR-M8000 vs Acera M395

Postby icicic » Tue Feb 28, 2017 2:09 pm

silentbutdeadly wrote:XT is very nice. Can't say for sure whether they are worth twice as much as the Acera brakes but I know I'd prefer to run the XTs. Bear in mind that brakes also depend on pads and rotors as part of the system...

Torpedo7 have the XTs for 108 per end plus shipping at the moment while Cycling Deal have the Acera's for 99 a set plus shipping.


Thanks for your response SBD, 
In the end i bought the XT BR-M8000 brake set for $216 (including post and I've found some well priced XT-Saint RT86 Ice-Tech 6-Bolt Disc Rotors.

I want to set the rotors up with a 180 up front and a 203 in the back because of consistent advice from Yuba Cargo Bike people that more braking power is needed at the rear on these long wheelbase cargo bikes, to stop the rear coming around the front.

But I don't know what Shimano Disc Brake Adaptors I need for these. I found several adaptors when searching and I don't know which is correct. Can you tell me whether I need

Shimano Mount Adaptor Rear Post to IS
Shimano Mount Adaptor Rear Post to Flat Road
Shimano Mount Adaptor Front Post to Post
or something else?

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Re: Deore XT BR-M8000 vs Acera M395

Postby icicic » Tue Feb 28, 2017 4:22 pm

Duck! wrote:Given the cargo bike is likely to be somewhat heavily loaded, the ability to use the better metal pads makes the XTs (or damn-near identical M7000 SLX or very similar but previous generation M615 Deore) a no-brainer.


Hi again Duck,

Well I've got my Yuba Mundo V4, my Deore XT BR-M8000 brake set, and I'm about to buy two XT-Saint RT86 Ice-Tech 6-Bolt Disc Rotors for a 180mm/203mm front/rear set up.

But I'm stuck re which adaptor mounts. In the Yuba Specs sheet the only mention of mounts, is "Disc Tabs" and no sizing is given.

"Frame: Mundo Steel w/Disc Tabs
Fork: Mundo V4 Cr-Mo 1-1/8” Threaded w/Disc Tabs"

from

<http://yubabikes.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Mundo-7-Speed-Specs.pdf>

I sent an enquiry but it's night there so while they sleep I posted in case these "Disc Tabs" are a standard size.

Three Adaptors mention on the website are

Shimano Mount Adaptor Rear Post to IS
Shimano Mount Adaptor Rear Post to Flat Road,
Shimano Mount Adaptor Front Post to Post

I know that I need Shimano Mount Adaptors (because Shimano, Mounting, and Adaptors).
I know that one will be Front and one will be Rear

I know the front is 180mm and the rear is 203mm

But I'm thrown by the descriptions

Post to IS,
Post to Flat Road,
Post to Post


RonK has replied:
RonK wrote:So Yuba say the fork has disc tabs, not posts - that implies an IS mount is used. The M8000 caliper is post mount, so you will need an Post to IS adaptor appropriate to the diameter of the disc.

I expect the rear will also have an IS mount, so again, you will need an Post to IS adaptor appropriate to the diameter of the disc.

I think this one (in 180mm) will work for the front. Shimano Mount Adaptor Front Post to IS

And this one will work for the back. Shimano Mount Adaptor Rear Post to IS 203mm

Ask Duck to verify.


So Duck!,
here I am, looking forward to your reply.

Cheers, Rik

___

I'm not sure how to reference the convo, but in case it helps, today I posted this (and more) in a thread called
Yuba: Which Shimano Disc Mounts (Postby icicic » Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:10 pm)
over at
Board index / Cycle Touring / Touring Bikes and Equipment

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Re: Deore XT BR-M8000 vs Acera M395

Postby Duck! » Tue Feb 28, 2017 5:19 pm

In line with what RonK says, the description "disc tabs" suggests IS mounts on the frame & fork. So you need post-IS mounts in the necessary sizes.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

icicic
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Re: Deore XT BR-M8000 vs Acera M395

Postby icicic » Tue Feb 28, 2017 5:46 pm

Thanks Again Duck!

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