Electric X development - Petro-Electric bicycle project.

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Mububban
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Re: Electric X development - Petro-Electric bicycle project.

Postby Mububban » Tue May 19, 2015 5:33 pm

I think this is brilliant, especially for an "offshoot" project. Keep on keeping us posted!
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cj7hawk
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Re: Electric X development - Petro-Electric bicycle project.

Postby cj7hawk » Sat Jul 11, 2015 2:54 pm

A first "Full Prototype" has been completed and tested - works great, set for 26v optimal, with 27.5v absolute maximum. Charges the battery to 95% in operation, and although the sticker says 116dbm I've tested it at under 90dbm full power ( around 400w for testing ) -

Recently did 43km on 600ml of petrol ( ~72 liters per gallon, or 170 mpg ) full power - though with some light pedaling, equaling both car-in-traffic and bus/train times for the same distance commute ( 25.5 km ).

It now sits on rail mounts that fit directly to the shape of the rear carrier bar, and is fully contained with automatic throttle. Power is output via a standard 50A plug, so can be disconnected and used to connect a 24v inverter or similar. Rectifier is a 100A diode array embedded in a heatsink, and has around 12000mfd capacitors within the box, as well as a 5kg/cm servo that's been derated to about 1kg/cm to drive the throttle line. Both ends are also now adjustable and the throttle line can be removed from the servo unit. Has a tacho/hourmeter on top so I can monitor use for oil changes and maintenance, and while it leaks a tiny bit of oil, that's not bad for a bunnings Ozito 4-stroke motor and otherwise it's pretty clean and doesn't smell. Drives 2 x VRLA batteries, making it about the most economical and possible the cleanest form of transport available, with an estimated cost of commute ( 50km per day ) of around $2.50.

Air filter is now standards, has 3 x cooling fans, and still runs on a 3kW brushless generator. ( Motor maximum output = 1.2 kW so maximum output is around 800 to 1000 watts. )

I think this now qualifies as the first series hybrid petrol/electric bicycle ( is legally an electric bicycle in Ausrtalia ) and also as the lightest petrol generator - around 5kg. I'm working on a smaller model, but this has proven itself under operation now and has around 20 hours use on the same plastic torque transfer plate.

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Regards
David

cj7hawk
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Re: Electric X development - Petro-Electric bicycle project.

Postby cj7hawk » Wed Jul 15, 2015 10:43 pm

An update - Latest torque plate failed, and so I built another - The result was significant - the motor was immediately quieter, ran smoother and without as much fuel consumption - allowing the first goal to be achieved - From just beyond Midland to Perth and Back - 51km total - on a single tank of fuel ( = 600ml ) - not bad from a pint of petrol. That's 85 km/l or, in other words, I have achieved hybrid cycle flat to flat of 200 miles per gallon - which is actually pretty exceptional in a road vehicle.

That was a full 600ml tank, 2.5 hours of charging ( while riding ) - And when the fuel ran out in Midland on the way home, enough charge to get me home, with full 200w power all the way. Or about 500wH total output. That's twice what a typical electric bicycle battery contains assuming 100% battery use ( in reality, around 4 normal ebike batteries would be needed to provide the same power ).

So I investigated the original torque transfer plate and discovered it had a flaw in it - so it looks like although it lasted for 25 hours, it should have lasted longer.

Regards
David

geebee
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Re: Electric X development - Petro-Electric bicycle project.

Postby geebee » Thu Jul 16, 2015 12:51 pm

I am loving the updates, I hate it when you never know how a project works out.
I know you are doing this as a project but I can't help doing the math :)

Now to evaluate the trip, you used 4.5 kw of petrol (converting Joules to KW). my trike would use less than 350wh to complete that trip even if it was hilly and I did absolutely no pedalling which means it could do the trip on its 10ah battery and that is riding normally not for economy, if flat or I pedalled at all it would do it without exceeding 80% discharge and would realistically take under 2 hours without pedalling.
My bikes and trikes with pedalling have always been around 70 to 80 km range on a 36v 10 ah packs

cj7hawk
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Re: Electric X development - Petro-Electric bicycle project.

Postby cj7hawk » Fri Jul 17, 2015 1:10 pm

geebee wrote:I am loving the updates, I hate it when you never know how a project works out.
I know you are doing this as a project but I can't help doing the math :)

Now to evaluate the trip, you used 4.5 kw of petrol (converting Joules to KW). my trike would use less than 350wh to complete that trip even if it was hilly and I did absolutely no pedalling which means it could do the trip on its 10ah battery and that is riding normally not for economy, if flat or I pedalled at all it would do it without exceeding 80% discharge and would realistically take under 2 hours without pedalling.
My bikes and trikes with pedalling have always been around 70 to 80 km range on a 36v 10 ah packs


Hi geebee,

Your trike is pretty awesome, but also has some serious advantages over a bicycle for such applications - including lacking CoG issues and not being as sensitive to mounting location - in my case, weight is a primary concern - since I have to keep heavy stuff down low, or weight above the rack to a minimum. All up, the generator weighs about 5kg. Even that, as I've learnt, is a lot for a rack.

Also, the 500Wh is about the same - I'm working on being able to push that to the wheels at all times ( 200w continuous to the motor controller ) - and there's about 100W to the battery to charge them and another 30w for other uses ( lights permanently on, etc ) - So the generator output at 200W usage rarely drops below 300W unless the batteries are really full. To this extent, I'm producing plenty of surplus energy that I could use for other purposes (eg, climate control system would be nice on a trike.... :D ) so even if you're assuming higher speeds and therefore less time, I'm just working off time alone for practical purposes - and because, simply put, I'm not in the same class of cyclist as you - I'm not even close... You'd probably still outpace me even if you were riding in your sleep.

Not that there's anything wrong with high capacity batteries - From the same ( 360 Wh ) I just wouldn't get as far - it would only realistically get me halfway there. Two would do it for me, but I'd flatten them at that. Especially if you include the other things like the high intensity lights and the extra current drain when I'm going slow, which is lost to motor efficiency limitations. When I run boost-off, just using the motor in the way it was originally intended, I still get 80% of the top speed, but my power usage is cut by half.

I would probably manage about 20 km on the same power that gets you 80 km with boost on, but around 30 to 35 km boost-off. There's no way I'd use the boost circuit on small batteries when trying for distance. It just sacrifices economy to push right up to the legal power limit.

Though it does make me wonder how far you might go with a petrol gen on your trike - 600ml of fuel would probably last you all week.

Hmmm. Climate control on a trike... You know, you're seriously tempting me to consider how I might make a realistic trike with an enclosed cabin and air conditining now... No idea how I would get it through some of the bollards though. Bollards don't seem to be terribly well thought out on the bicycle paths.

Regards
David

geebee
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Re: Electric X development - Petro-Electric bicycle project.

Postby geebee » Fri Jul 17, 2015 8:49 pm

The Glr is a very good trike, the design is a light weight racing machine but mine was built for a light weight rider and is even lighter. :)
I am no longer a fit cyclist due to illness thus how I know the riding distance without pedaling :(

I have built 2 velomobile shells for 2 different trikes, the speed increase is amazing, attached is a shot of one of them from the rear, the shell was some where between 2 to 3 kg all up including frame, they are actually quite cool in hot weather due to the amount of shade.
Link to shell https://flic.kr/p/6i5iht

eldavo
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Re: Electric X development - Petro-Electric bicycle project.

Postby eldavo » Fri Jul 24, 2015 4:15 pm

What is the skin material geebee?
Nice work.

geebee
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Re: Electric X development - Petro-Electric bicycle project.

Postby geebee » Fri Jul 24, 2015 4:42 pm

Corflute, cheap, easy to work with and water proof.
The first shell I built was only cable tied and edge taped and it was really strong as it allowed it to move slightly, like when a bloke sat on it to have his photo taken, when he got off it went back into original shape.
The second was cable tied and then holt melt glued and edge taped with gaffer tape, it was much more rigid and had no issues either.

As you probably realise the side arrows show a lot more of it.

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Re: Electric X development - Petro-Electric bicycle project.

Postby eldavo » Fri Jul 24, 2015 10:21 pm

Thanks, yeah I thought corflute, but when I checked out the other pics, the resolution and white compression showed gradients of white that had me wondering if it was a pattern of wood grain showing through the paint =D

I've left a return to motorcycles until empty-nesting mid life crisis, but velomobiles with bicycles have kept my dream alive of a Wallace and Gromit styled sidecar, the red Rotovelo is easily the closest to do this, but a rounded nose (fibreglass cone?) with corflute body like a badminton shuttlecock may be a dodgy-it-yourself proposition ;)
Image

geebee
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Re: Electric X development - Petro-Electric bicycle project.

Postby geebee » Fri Jul 24, 2015 10:42 pm

This shape should be doable with corflute, mine were not painted just natural white with white gaffer tape on the edges.
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geebee
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Re: Electric X development - Petro-Electric bicycle project.

Postby geebee » Sat Aug 22, 2015 11:07 am

Congraulation cj7hawk on making it to 3ders :) http://www.3ders.org/articles/20150821- ... inter.html

cj7hawk
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Re: Electric X development - Petro-Electric bicycle project.

Postby cj7hawk » Sat Aug 22, 2015 10:12 pm

geebee wrote:Congraulation cj7hawk on making it to 3ders :) http://www.3ders.org/articles/20150821- ... inter.html


Thanks Geebee - It's been slightly longer than 6 months since I started and it's been an interesting project - It feels good to finally be riding it to work and back -

David.

Joeblake
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Re: Electric X development - Petro-Electric bicycle project.

Postby Joeblake » Sun Aug 23, 2015 9:38 am

To acquire immunity to eloquence is of the utmost importance to the citizens of a democracy
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geebee
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Re: Electric X development - Petro-Electric bicycle project.

Postby geebee » Sun Aug 23, 2015 10:53 am

They seem to becoming a thing, this one is cheaper and comes with the bike attached.
Image
http://www.autoevolution.com/news/an-el ... 80032.html

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Re: Electric X development - Petro-Electric bicycle project.

Postby cj7hawk » Sat Mar 05, 2016 1:14 am

OK, time to rejoice - The bike failed today, with massive internal damage to the generator.

So I rode it until catastrophic failure occurred, expecting it was the torque transfer plate again - Nope -
This time it was a bolt came loose from the engine, throwing the axis out and destroying the flanges. Failure was quiet, uneventful and simply broke the generator. No bits thrown, safety shields world perfectly, the failure occurred exactly as engineered ( rotation of the flange could not occur ) and I just printed a $3 part to fix it -

At this point, even without hitting the 100 hour point, at 80 hours, I can call this complete - The main torque transfer plate showed no wear and maintained full operation under extreme conditions.

This time, I re-assembled it all with lock-tite.

So, after more than 2000km, or 85 hours operation, the range extender died - not due to printed part failure, but because 3 of 4 internal fixing bolts came loose due to vibration and poor assembly.

So, sometime in the next few months, I'll put this project on Instructables - at this point, the ultra-light generator/battery 1kW power system is working well - Great for emergency work and the first generator where you can 3D print the parts - Under 4.5kg and supporting all kinds of projects. Electric bicycles, small boats, etc.

But as bicycles go, this small add-on system can extend range to about 40km each way - or 80km round trip and make it practical for anyone to complete a ride of that length.

Now... I just need to work on improving the system, reducing noise and making it more user friendly -

Regards
David.

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Mububban
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Re: Electric X development - Petro-Electric bicycle project.

Postby Mububban » Thu Mar 10, 2016 2:11 pm

Awesome effort David. Reckon you'll record some video and put it up on Youtube?
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Re: Electric X development - Petro-Electric bicycle project.

Postby eldavo » Mon Oct 24, 2016 6:06 pm

David, a layer of flexible plastic solar cells on this sail along with your power-X unit and it will be Mad Max proof.

Image

http://whike.com/en/

http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/kenmore- ... 1117809178

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... reets.html

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Re: Electric X development - Petro-Electric bicycle project.

Postby cj7hawk » Sun Nov 06, 2016 1:31 pm

I'd love a nuclear battery - like what they had in the Pioneer spacecraft... Just imagine. No more recharge. Infinite range.

I did try to build a wind powered cycle when I was a kid. It didn't work very well though it did function. I guess bed sheets don't make the best sails.

But it was always electric or petrol I wanted. In fact, I can still remember the exact location and conditions when I thought about how great it would be to have a motor powered bicycle, as I pushed my bicycle through the sand while walking on my way to see a friend, as a kid of about 10 years old. I would have settled even for a small motor just so my bike could push itself through the sand while I ran along aside it. I probably could have modified my dynamo at the time, but I wasn't quite knowledgeable at that age - else I would have wired up some nicads and a switch to the circuit - but I didn't know that motors and generators were almost the same thing.

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Re: Electric X development - Petro-Electric bicycle project.

Postby LulaNord » Tue May 09, 2017 3:22 am

Hi...i am a new user here. I think the power cut out down hill because a hub motor can only turn at a maximum speed. Like squeezing the trigger on a drill with the drill in the air. The chuck will only spin so fast, the gear box is its load and thats as fast as the drill can turn it.

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Re: Electric X development - Petro-Electric bicycle project.

Postby cj7hawk » Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:59 am

LulaNord wrote:Hi...i am a new user here. I think the power cut out down hill because a hub motor can only turn at a maximum speed. Like squeezing the trigger on a drill with the drill in the air. The chuck will only spin so fast, the gear box is its load and thats as fast as the drill can turn it.


That's caused by back-emf... My design offsets that so that the full power can be delivered at any (preset ) speed... Imagine if that drill just got faster and faster without load until it sounded like a jet engine... That's not quite an accurate analogy, but it's closer to what I do. It means that if I have a tailwind, or am going downhill, I can go faster under full power. Well, to a limit. And I can still use electric braking on steep descents.

Anyway, an update - Work finally commenced on the first pre-production prototype of the new hybrid generator. Now uses a branded Honda engine, and a lot of waterproof electronics, and is still underway. But I hope to have the next version prototype complete by the end of month. ( Mechanical side has been tested today... It's even lighter and more compact. )

It might have taken me longer, but someone in the AU military took notice and liked it and ordered a few for "stuff" they are doing, so it looks like I'm finally going to get around to making a new version. The engineering - or rather re-engineering - is taking a while longer than I thought... But the next version should be slightly down on power, a little smaller and lighter still, a bit quieter.... And able to charge and run most ebikes, including full EN-15194 compliance, from 24v to 92v... (adjustable). Well, obviously not 92v for EN-15194... That has a much lower limit.

No details on it's continuous maximum yet, since testing hasn't happened, but it's 1HP class. Still complies with 200W and 250W rules though.

David.

( Haven't been able to ride for 6 months, since I moved workplace and there's no paths to where I work now... )

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Re: Electric X development - Petro-Electric bicycle project.

Postby zebee » Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:43 pm

This is brilliant. I so want one for my recumbent trike as it would make a brilliant tourer. If the petrol motor can keep the battery charged enough so you don't need a power point for a couple of days that is.

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Re: Electric X development - Petro-Electric bicycle project.

Postby cj7hawk » Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:03 pm

zebee wrote:This is brilliant. I so want one for my recumbent trike as it would make a brilliant tourer. If the petrol motor can keep the battery charged enough so you don't need a power point for a couple of days that is.


Well, it can, but I can probably answer the question better with a few questions first :)

1) Do you want to run concurrently ( Range Extender ) while riding or just charge when stopped.
2) What voltage/charge current ( if stopped ) are you planning on?
3) How much power do you need, and for how many hours per day if riding
4) Do you want to run other stuff later, such as lighting, small microwave oven, air conditioning etc.
5) Are you planning on mounting it on the bike, or just keeping it in a pack for charging when not riding?
6) Which state?

Thanks
David.

zebee
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Re: Electric X development - Petro-Electric bicycle project.

Postby zebee » Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:45 am

1) Do you want to run concurrently ( Range Extender ) while riding or just charge when stopped.

Concurrently as I'd want to do more than 40km a day. I suppose it might depend on how long the charge takes as say do 40 then noodle about for half an hour or an hour then continue would be doable.

2) What voltage/charge current ( if stopped ) are you planning on?
3) How much power do you need, and for how many hours per day if riding

I have no idea. I presume that depends on the battery? Or does it depend on the amount of pedal assist? I'd expect light to medium pedal assist, I have no desire to use it motor only. On the other hand this is loaded touring and hills, so we will be talking a fair amount of work.

How do you calculate those things? Weight of bike + rider, time in saddle, expected speed?

It is touring, and that depends on where you are going and what there is to see. And the hills... Getting over the Great Dividing Range is a long time and hard work, and not a lot to see, heading along the coast roads tends to be flatter and more reasons to stop.

4) Do you want to run other stuff later, such as lighting, small microwave oven, air conditioning etc.


I already run dynamo lights. The trike is a tadpole, so rear driving wheel and two front wheels that have the brakes. The dynamo is a spoke dynamo so doesn't take a hub. Given that I'd be inclined to keep the dynamo (which also powers USB) as that means I have lights no matter what happens to the battery.

I have been pondering setting it up as a velo to do multi day tours, and so I'd probably want to power indicators and maybe a fan off the battery. I don't think they make microwaves small enough to fit in the luggage area of a velo so I'd reluctantly have to say no on that. I used to know someone who had a full on espresso machine in the topbox of his motorcycle...

5) Are you planning on mounting it on the bike, or just keeping it in a pack for charging when not riding?


Hadn't thought of that. I suppose that depends on range of battery, and time taken to charge same. If you want to do 100km of moderate to severe hills and/or ride for 3 sets of 2 hours with maybe half an hour to an hour between compared to a winery tour of half an hour to an hour of riding then 2 hours of tasting.... My tours have been between those extremes but I would like to do more, hence the interest in the motor.

As I never thought electric would be viable until I read your post, such things had not occurred to me. And as is no doubt obvious I am massively ignorant as to all things electrical. I have rebuilt a motorcycle from the frame up, but electrics on those are "run the wires where the diagram says, clean the spark plugs, pray" :)

6) Which state?


I'm in NSW, living in Sydney. I will likely be in Perth for a week or two later this year (taking my mother to visit family and friends) but alas without pedal power.

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Re: Electric X development - Petro-Electric bicycle project.

Postby eldavo » Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:03 am

Sebastien Fatrike on FB wrote:1580 kms from Wien to Switzerland through Alps, 39600m elevation gain, 21 days cycling ❤️my e-fat is wonderful !

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Re: Electric X development - Petro-Electric bicycle project.

Postby cj7hawk » Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:42 pm

zebee wrote:
6) Which state?


I'm in NSW, living in Sydney. I will likely be in Perth for a week or two later this year (taking my mother to visit family and friends) but alas without pedal power.


Sorry for the late return visit and response.

OK, looking through the options, in NSW, better to be on the silent. I'm reasonably confident I could keep the generator within the letter of the law if you wanted to do, say, 200km/day but the police might harass you so better to avoid that possibility and leave it quiet whether fixed or not since you only want around 40km. The new version should put out about 600W, and lithiums can't be charged as quick as you can consume the power, so the ideal would be some Lithium car batteries, say a 12v 4S pack (AT) 100AH. That would equate to around 1200WH, which would easily cover the full range you want. This means you could charge up the pack at night, wherever you were, and would probably put about 600WH back into it in an hour. You couldn't spend time pushing that all back in one go, so you'd probably cycle your battery in the middle and put around 800WH into it maximum, which would give you around 3 or more hours of heavy assist... All while being silent, and you could fit the parts yourself. Bottom line is you'd probably put around the same power into the system as you take out, at about the same rate, so 1 hour of charge would be around 1 to 2 hours riding. Up to 3 hours riding if you use it carefully.

In fact, the pedelecs you see people riding around on? I doubt any would be over 400WH, so even if you did a slow overnight mains charge, you'd have three times the range they have, and some people quote up to 50km for one of those.

Theoretically, you could just turn the generator on too while riding, but if the police don't hear it, then it's probably not so bad even if they see it.

You'd need to boost straight from the battery to whatever voltage you were using, but you could pump at least 250W into it in a single stage, or double or triple that to allow for heavy boost assist on uphills at low speed - Possibly as much as 1kW. (And yes, that is legal in NSW ).

So you'd probably be looking at a fair bit to get it all going, but would have one heck of a cruiser after that.

If you make your own, and you probably will have to, you'll want to allow about 25 of additional weight.. But it will still seem light when you have boost, since it feels like Lance Armstrong is riding tandem with you, and he's just finished hitting the juice. Downhill and flats, the extra weight isn't a problem, but you need the frame to handle it. That's about 12.5kg for batteries, 6kg for generator and fuel, and the rest for the electric drive and wiring.

But... Charging at night means riding in silence, and at night you can have extra light from the generator in case you carry a tent, as well as charging anything that needs charging. 600W is a decent power budget for camping. Maybe not enough to boil water or heat your food. If you wanted to use smaller batteries, that would be possible too, but the 1C rate for maximum generator output is around 50A at 12v, 25A at 24v and 12A at 48V.... So if you were running a normal system at 48v, then you would want at least a 12AH battery system.

Though... If you want to try assisted cycling, I'd say try it with a normal battery/wheel combo first... You'll get a feeling for what you want pretty quickly after trying it, even for just 10-15km. If that works well for you, plan the upgrade. :)

Regards
David

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