NSW RTA set to change electric bike laws

Positive discussion on ebikes and pedal assist bicycles

Re: NSW RTA set to change electric bike laws

Postby human909 » Fri May 07, 2010 5:32 pm

Aushiker wrote:Hi

On the subject of electric bikes, a wireless one enters the US market according to BikeRadar.com

Andrew


Lol enters the US market!! :lol:

This is another impossible designers bike that only exists on photoshop. A quick check reveals that not it has been built but the 'designers' are either blissfully naive or fraudsters.

There are so many thing wrong with this bike I don't know where to start:
'Wireless' brakes :shock: Lol! As if any engineer would put a life critical safety task on a wireless link. showtime it takes billions of dollars to make vehicles drive/fly by wire let alone wireless! Furthermore even if implemented how to they suppose they could possibly apply enough force to brake? What happens when your batteries go flat.

I could go on about the dodgy suspension, lack of proper torque transfer bar for brakes and motor, but its obvious that this thing only exists in fantasy land. They have one real image and it looks like the guy built it out of stuff found around the kitchen:

Image

wombatK wrote:Looks flash - although as the article suggests, the seat post clearance from the rear suspension is problematic. More serious trouble would be sidewinds hitting full disk wheels if you were motoring along at 45 kph. Pretty scary, even on a bike weighing in at 26 kg. You don't see full disk wheels on road bikes for a good reason.

Although it claims a top speed of 32 kph, it's got a 500W motor and would be outside the bounds of what our current and proposed law would allow.

I think it is entirely safe to say that the risk of sidewinds and illegal power output is the least the issues!

EDIT:
Given that the guy is asking for distributors and has multiple languages on his site I strongly believe that this thing is a fraud. Fishing for investors/distributors to take money from.
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by BNA » Mon May 10, 2010 1:50 pm

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Re: NSW RTA set to change electric bike laws

Postby Joeblake » Mon May 10, 2010 1:50 pm

Another entrant in the electric motor stakes.

Image

http://c0378172.cdn.cloudfiles.rackspac ... otor-2.jpg

Would be helpful if there was some indication of the size/type of batteries. Saying a range of "up to 75 km" is not very informative. However, the article IS about the motor, rather than the bicycle I suppose.

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Re: NSW RTA set to change electric bike laws

Postby glowwormbicycles » Wed May 19, 2010 3:11 pm

wombatK wrote:
rustguard wrote:apart from making the bike more expensive by forcing them to include a complicated governing switch, which would also would make the bike less reliable. you kill all markets except for the cyclist the one customer that isn't that interested in electric bikes because he can already pedal it himself.

This law is another stealth attack by lobbyist to stop alternative forms of transport gaining a foothold


I have to agree with WombatK - it is an overreaction. The pedal assist law isn't original enough to be a stealth attack.

It's not true that people who can pedal aren't interested in electric bikes. I can pedal and electric bikes tickle my fancy. (it's also not true that all people who can pedal are 'he' rustguard...)

I do agree though that it adds complication. If the ebike is made well it won't reduce reliability much but it adds complication in the usage and the possibilities of design. Pedal assist is a great invention - being able to get around on an ebike without using your hands to do anything different makes for a safer, more comfortable ride. The problem is making it mandatory. There are lots of times when you just want the thing to stop leaping to action every time you pedal. It can be intimidating and downright dangerous to have that happening over pyrmont bridge. Also, there are definitely times when you want to throttle without pedalling, like going through a roundabout - you can't have your pedals hitting the ground as you pedal while turning but you also need to keep up the speed that you entered the roundabout in which in many cases relies on the motor, otherwise you're a very confusing vehicle to share the road with.

Come and have a test ride if you're in Sydney, you'll see what i mean (search glow worm bicycles). The function is cool to use, not cool to have it use you. And legislating it? Pointless waste of time.

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Re: NSW RTA set to change electric bike laws

Postby hartleymartin » Wed May 19, 2010 3:33 pm

If pedal-assist technology is such a problem, then why are we not hearing of such problems out of Japan or Europe?

If anything, I think that a separate throttle makes for a more difficult and potentially dangerous machine to use. Pedal-assist is a simple matter of hop-on and ride it like a normal bicycle, and you get some help from an electric motor. There is a greater learning curve to use a separate throttle control.
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Re: NSW RTA set to change electric bike laws

Postby wombatK » Wed May 19, 2010 6:08 pm

glowwormbicycles wrote:The problem is making it mandatory. There are lots of times when you just want the thing to stop leaping to action every time you pedal. It can be intimidating and downright dangerous to have that happening over pyrmont bridge. Also, there are definitely times when you want to throttle without pedalling, like going through a roundabout - you can't have your pedals hitting the ground as you pedal while turning but you also need to keep up the speed that you entered the roundabout in which in many cases relies on the motor, otherwise you're a very confusing vehicle to share the road with.

Maurice

Interesting points Maurice. The mandatory aspect seems to be aimed at policing the non-auxiliary power using bikes - can you suggest another way of achieving that could be more easily enforced than the current law ? Your bikes are obviously compliant with the law, so it must be frustrating to see them handicapped because of the charlatans out there selling non-conforming bikes.

I hadn't thought about taking corners (or roundabouts) with power assist - its not a natural option for a cyclist. Presently, the dynamics of pedalling make it pointless to peddle hard through a corner, as well as the pedal-on-the-ground risk making it a bad idea. As a result there is quite a safety margin between the grip limit of the tyres and the lean and speed a pedal cyclist can use. The auxiliary power assistance could result in speeds and lean that really eat up that safety margin, and e-bikers using it could soon find themselves as road-kill. Is this something an e-bike buyer should be cautioned about ?

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Re: NSW RTA set to change electric bike laws

Postby human909 » Thu May 20, 2010 12:40 am

hartleymartin wrote:If pedal-assist technology is such a problem, then why are we not hearing of such problems out of Japan or Europe?

If anything, I think that a separate throttle makes for a more difficult and potentially dangerous machine to use. Pedal-assist is a simple matter of hop-on and ride it like a normal bicycle, and you get some help from an electric motor. There is a greater learning curve to use a separate throttle control.


Pedal assist clearly is a problem and a difficulty. It has been discussed previously. Integrating pedal assist into a regular bike is extremely difficult and involves significant compromise. Don't pretend that it is simply an easy technical application.
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Re: NSW RTA set to change electric bike laws

Postby rustguard » Thu May 20, 2010 1:30 am

glowwormbicycles wrote:it's also not true that all people who can pedal are 'he' rustguard...

ok good point it must be true cos my gf rides.
In spanish plurals have the masculine expression. We are all members of mankind. I try to be respectful but political correctness has gone mad. I meant no disrespect to the better looking riders. Im sorry if anyone thought I was saying that girls cant pedal a bike. Half the time Im typing this stuff in bed with squinting eyes while yawning.

Although in my defense I have to say that most of the electric bikes I have seen are step throughs! :| :| :|
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Re: NSW RTA set to change electric bike laws

Postby henrys » Thu May 20, 2010 1:39 am

Maybe they'll also remove their RIDICULOUS ban in NSW on Segways too?
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Re: NSW RTA set to change electric bike laws

Postby master6 » Thu May 20, 2010 9:11 am

Step throughs? Is that the opposite to 'step ins"?
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Re: NSW RTA set to change electric bike laws

Postby hartleymartin » Thu May 20, 2010 12:12 pm

henrys wrote:Maybe they'll also remove their RIDICULOUS ban in NSW on Segways too?


As far as I know, you can ride a Segway in Sydney Olympic Park. I've seen them there, and apparently you can hire them there.
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Re: NSW RTA set to change electric bike laws

Postby master6 » Thu May 20, 2010 12:50 pm

Segway? What a stupid word. I googled it and found something that looked like the things we squashed on the footpath on the way to primary school.
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Re: NSW RTA set to change electric bike laws

Postby stolennomenclature » Mon Nov 15, 2010 8:53 pm

Although I have not scanned the whole thread, I have not heard anyone talking about hills or wind. Even a dead person can pedal a bicycle at a reasonable speed on the flat in calm air - its when you get a hill or a head wind that you need to be fit. Even a motor that will get a bicycle up to 37kmh on a flat will die on a steep hill. Old and unfit people need power where and when it matters - up hills and against powerful head winds (or both). What is needed is a powerful regulated motor setup that monitors its speed and provides power in inverse proportion to speed, and with a limit on acceleration. Pedal assist mode sounds fine to me, but anything less than 500watts is not going to help me cycle through the Blue mountains, If I meet a steep hill I would like 750watts, but on a flat in low wind I don't need assist at all.
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Re: NSW RTA set to change electric bike laws

Postby Joeblake » Mon Nov 15, 2010 10:13 pm

Perhaps not in this thread, but in some of the others there is mention of hills.

:wink:

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Re: NSW RTA set to change electric bike laws

Postby zero » Tue Nov 16, 2010 1:38 am

stolennomenclature wrote:Although I have not scanned the whole thread, I have not heard anyone talking about hills or wind. Even a dead person can pedal a bicycle at a reasonable speed on the flat in calm air - its when you get a hill or a head wind that you need to be fit. Even a motor that will get a bicycle up to 37kmh on a flat will die on a steep hill. Old and unfit people need power where and when it matters - up hills and against powerful head winds (or both). What is needed is a powerful regulated motor setup that monitors its speed and provides power in inverse proportion to speed, and with a limit on acceleration. Pedal assist mode sounds fine to me, but anything less than 500watts is not going to help me cycle through the Blue mountains, If I meet a steep hill I would like 750watts, but on a flat in low wind I don't need assist at all.


Unfit people can keep up 150w long enough to pass an obstacle. 400w total (150 + assist) is enough to keep reasonable headway in virtually all conditions and grades you are likely to find unless you are deliberately selecting maximum possible grades. To put things in perspective, I was able to produce 500w or thereabouts continously for 3 minutes to lift my 91kgs on the day up awaba st, on a 16kg bike with a 3kg backpack without a motor, and I am not a racer. I have to go out of my way to get to that street, and its overall more height gain than most commutes would require.

500w (250 new limit bike, 250 rider), will shift a 30kg bike up a 15% grade at ridable speeds - 50% faster than if the same rider tried it on an unnassisted 8kg bike. If you tried to climb significantly, you will find that battery life is a real issue anyway, and boosting the engine power to 750w isn't going to solve the fundamental issue that the battery simply does not contain enough energy to lift the bicycle/rider very many times its own height regardless of discharge rate - matter of fact you'd probably get further with a 250w version, just because you could do more climbs with some assistance, and thus input more power over time yourself. I presume that there would be hills that would be unclimbable with a 30kg bike and no charge.

Mr Honda, Mr Yamaha, and Mr Ducati and friends have excellent solutions for powered hilly touring.
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Pos input to: National Road Safety Strategy for 2011-2020

Postby alan101 » Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:13 am

I got this on 5 Jan 2011, from someone in Melbourne. ... a potential opportunity exists to provide the input regarding e-bikes into the draft National Road Safety Strategy for 2011-2020 which has been released for public consultation. The feedback is required in written form by the 11 February 2011 which doesn't leave us with a huge amount of time if we want to submit something.

Firstly, In the main document ( Page 40 ) under the heading of 9. Safe Vehicles, Sub-heading - FIRST STEPS: Actions for the first three years
28. Investigate further regulation of speed and other safety features for powered alternative vehicles (for example, mobility scooters and power-assisted bicycles).

Secondly, I note that the safe vehicle strategies only address speed and neglects mass. As everyone knows....I think....it's the energy of the moving object, a function of mass times speed that kills people. This is a safety angle I see that can be used to advocate for e-bikes and other forms of personalised transport.

However, the information is available from http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/ There are three documents under the draft National Road Safety Strategy for 2011-2020 link.
1. The main document.
2. A summary document. ( not much smaller in memory )
3. FAQs
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Pedalecs and the elderly cohort

Postby alan101 » Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:52 am

Alan Parker is a Melbourne ebiker aged 74y. This essay of his was recently circulated and provides some global perspective on ebikes, with emphasis on 250w pedalecs and health benefits for the elderly.

This writer's personal experience in coping with a serious heart problem ( age 74) is that there is lot of benefit from the gentle exercise when riding an E-bike on the flat with a maximum power output of 200 watts. However a 250 watt Pedelecs can provide automatic power assistance on uphills so that it is possible to safely maintain a safe level of physical effort. For those over 55 who are very unfit or more than average weight a Pedelec with a 250 watt power output for riding uphill is definitely needed.

Many elderly people also have problems with their declining eyesight, or the effects of medication or reduced reaction times and are advised to give up driving cars. Even so, they may be able to ride Pedelecs on bikepaths and safe on-road routes for a few extra years, but no-one can legally advise that because of the lack of research available for users. The only apparent choice is a three or four wheeled scooter designed to be used by the disabled on the footpath. This provides no exercise benefit whereas the Pedelec has to be pedaled.

Tests conducted in Germany on 20 Pedelecs and E-bikes reveal that some of them give relatively less power output on the flat but provide more assistance on hills. The tests results enable potential buyers to pick the ones most suitable for their needs, which vary according to the terrain on which they ride.

Japanese experience shows that the Pedelec bridges the gap between driving a car and the very limited mobility provided by three and four wheeled footpath scooters. It is worth noting that many elderly people need more power assistance when starting to pedal up to a speed of 6 km per hour and then 1 to 1 assistance up to 25 km per hour. A new level of auxiliary power assistance of 2 to 1 is provided for by the latest Japanese standard and provided in most 2011 models.

Indeed New Zealand recently made provision for Pedelecs and ebikes to have a 300 watt power output. Also, for up to 650 watts to be used by the elderly and partially disabled at the “discretion of the Director of Land Transport" (NZTS 2002). There is no good reason why a similar provision could not made in Australia.

Note that the F Jamerson and E Benjamin, Electric bikes worldwide report edition 2011 will soon be available and be the best source on development of electric vehicles, including pedelecs, E-bikes and E-scooters. Sourced from: Electric Battery Bicycle Company, <www.ebwr.com>.
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Re: NSW RTA set to change electric bike laws

Postby CommuRider » Tue Jan 11, 2011 3:15 pm

Batteries on electric bikes are pretty heavy though. I saw one my LBS mechanic was doing up and the idea of having a massive battery pack at the back + heavy rear panniers wasn't that attractive to me.
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Batteries

Postby alan101 » Tue Jan 11, 2011 4:15 pm

Responding to CommuRider re ebike batteries. It's the evolution of ebike batteries that are making ebikes so attractive to the more sporty rider these days. My Li-ion 36v 10Ah battery weighs 4kg and is 2.5y old. I'm getting a replacement Li battery 36v 14 Ah (also 4kg) for $700, which will extend my ebike's range from 50 to 80km.

Standard lead acid (SLA) batteries weigh 4 times Li batteries for the same rating. So my 4kg Li battery would need a 16kg SLA battery to have the same functionality. Lithium batteries reportedly have a stable output until just before discharge, whereas SLA output degrades slowly from journey commencement. An NiMh battery will be about 40% heavier than LI for a given capacity.

People who think adding a more powerful motor to make an ebike better can easily fall into the trap that they subsequently need huger battery capacity to support the motor. My 200w hub motor with a 4kg Li-ion battery gives sporty performance on my Jamis Coda Sport 27spd, running at 28-34kmh in up to 15kn headwinds. At 15-25kn headwind, speed drops to 24-26kmh pedal assisted.

There are ebikers using SLA batteries who like the low cost and established functionality that lead acid offers. I came into ebiking with a Li-ion battery, and enjoy the acceleration and rather sporty ride that my 22kg rig provides.
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Regulations encourage car use and ban the best ebikes

Postby alan101 » Tue Jan 11, 2011 4:25 pm

I'm posting this article for Alan Parker.

Road regulations encourage car use and ban the best electric bicycles needed by many elderly cyclists
By Alan A. Parker. Former Vice President of the Bicycle Federation of Australia.

E-bikes can be used to save fuel, save money, greatly assist riding up hills and against strong winds, Action is needed to persuade the feds and states to adopt European Union electric bike regulations in 2011.

The regulatory framework in Australia is complex. Due to having a Federation of States and Territories, each of which had its own road traffic rules until the year 2000 when national uniform traffic laws were adopted by the Australian Federal Government, known as “The Model Australian Road Rules”. They were initially approved by the states Transport Ministers, but by 2010 had failed to create uniform road rules for electric bicycles (E-bikes) and electric scooters (E-scooters) in their home states.

As a result of this, consumers were constrained from buying the best and safest E-bikes on the world market, they are not free to buy them. This is so because Australia does not manufacture electric bicycles and bans the import of 250 watt E-bikes fitted to nearly all potential imports. The States’ bicycle importers, assemblers, wholesalers, retailers, and some transport researchers have been advocating an upgrade of the road rules. The most important new rule is increasing the current 200 watt power limit to 250 watts in line with what is available from overseas and in 2011 complying with EU safety standards for Ion lithium batteries and E-bike parts.

In 2010, the European Twowheeler Retailers’ Association (ETRA) was given an opportunity to explain in detail to the European Parliament why the European Unions (EU) new 2011 regulations for the review of the type-approval for two- and three-wheel motor vehicles is not well adapted to E-bikes and E-scooters and creates even more confusion than the previous legislation,In the individual EU countries. In the individual EU countries. Therefore a Member of European Parliament Wim van de Camp invited the ETRA to make a submission to the EU. ETRA submitted a proposal based on two main principles applying E-bikes and E-scooters.

1. Exclusion of all cycles with pedal assistance up to 25 km/h in order to allow the EU to amend EN 15194, the current standard. This would exempt these vehicles from the type-approval procedure and they would be classified as bicycles. As a result they could be used In the EU without helmets, drivers’ licence or insurance.

2. As for the E-scooters with pedals, up to 45 km/h, cycles that can be propelled by the motor itself and they would still be subject to type-approval but the procedure would be adapted to suit so that unnecessary requirements would not apply.

A planning opportunity exists for the Australian Commonwealth Government to give consumers and importers what they want by adopting EU E-bikes regulations. However there are some planning and political constraints to be overcome. Like the USA the Australian government is holding office by the slimmest of margins. Furthermore, Australia has a new Federal Government with a new Prime Minister, a reshuffle of government departments, new advisory groups and the need to implement new election promises. Added to this, like the rest of the world, Australia has been struggling to deal with the global financial crisis and the need to adapt to climate change and future oil shortages. E-bikes are a case where the devil is in the detail.

Australia has a new Commonwealth super department of Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development and Local Government (CDITLG) that is currently ignoring all EU electric car legislation and in particular draft EU regulations for E-bikes and pedelecs. At the time of writing the CDITLG has a one eyed view of electric bicycles as a road safety problem and ignoring their potential for reducing air pollution, oil use and as a mobility aid, particularly for the for the elderly. This is why it appears likely that the "National Road Safety Strategy 2011 - 2016" , to be released later this year,will increase the safety of E-Bikes and pedelecs.

CDITLG is the host of the ’Australian Bicycle Council (ABC)’. The ABC produced the ‘National Cycling Strategy 2011- 2016’ which ignored the important role of E-bikes in satisfying the transport needs of the elderly and of those who have serious health problems At its next meeting, it may support proposals to pressure the CDITLG to actively support the need for 250 watt E-bikes to be sold in Australia, as proposed by this writer and others. It has been alleged that the Chair of the Australian Bicycle Council (ABC), a senior executive of Vic Roads, has instructions to persist in ensuring that the ABC ignores the needs of the community , including the elderly to ride electric bicycles.

The CDITLG also has a Vehicle Safety Standards unit (VSSU) which fields questions on the existing e-bike legislation (200 watt) and states that they are "products" not bicycles. This means they are vehicles, thus removing any any chance of them being imported as they are considered as being unsafe, especially with 250 watts. The VSSU has also ignored the merits of one 250 watt E-bike the state of the art “pedelec,” approved by the EU in April 2010. Indeed, a CDITLG insider has stated that the department has no funds to research the issue properly.

The VSSU decision to treat E-bikes and pedelecs as "products" originates with Australian state road agencies on the VSSU safety committee and the dumping of model road rules which define an E-bike a s bicycle with an "auxiliary" motor which creates a legal constraint. The VSSU was persuaded by draft VicRoads revision of the Victorian Road Rules’ not yet approved by the Victorian Parliament, omits any reference to ‘auxiliary’ motor.

This legal constraint was challenged by a legal precedent set when a Melbourne magistrate In December 2010 ruled that the Victorian and Federal Model Road Rules’ definition of E-bike as a "bicycle with auxiliary motor" was correct and that the Oxford dictionary definition of the "auxiliary" was acceptable. The magistrate dismissed the case brought against the rider of a 200 watt E-bike who was charged by the Victorian police with riding a “vehicle on a bike lane”. The police use of the draft rule was an unfortunate mistake for them. Cycling organisations need to ensure that it is still legal to ride E-bikes.

Hopefully, 2011 will see the creation of new road rule in all states which encourage the use of E-bikes and Pedelecs, otherwise there will be chaos in the domestic market for E-bikes. New rules for E- scooters may come later. A planning opportunity exists for Australian state governments to make this happen.
Alan Parker
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Re: NSW RTA set to change electric bike laws

Postby moozoo » Tue Jan 25, 2011 3:49 pm

Is it possible to regulate power output based on incline.
i.e. 250 Watts , or much less, on a flat incline, 800W on a 20% incline.

The other thing I note about the RTA document is that it only considers riders who's weight is 75kg.
Based on the male weight graph they supplied wouldn't a figure of 95kg be more indicative of the general public.

To me a goal of power assistance would be to maintain a speed > walking speed 4-5 km/h on a 20% incline for a 95-100kg rider.
The document seems to concentrate to much on zero incline speeds.
I'd even consider a system where a 500W (say) motor only cut in on a >5% incline.
This is where the real "assistance" is needed.
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Re: NSW RTA set to change electric bike laws

Postby wombatK » Wed Jan 26, 2011 11:10 am

moozoo wrote:Is it possible to regulate power output based on incline.
i.e. 250 Watts , or much less, on a flat incline, 800W on a 20% incline.

Most roads are designed to have less than 15% gradient, and major roads typically have much less (less than 5%). So I'm not sure how genuine your proposal is, if you haven't researched this. You're a noobie poster, and that means you could be a troll :cry: But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt...

From an engineering point of view, your idea would be very easy to set up.

From a legal point of view, how could you ever enforce this provision ? Constable Plod would need both a radar/lidar and some yet to be invented tool that simultaneously measures incline at a distance.

The biggest problem with the existing regulations is that the police believe they can't enforce the 200 W limit, even when they see someone powering up a 5% incline at 30 kph plus, without pedalling. The RTA proposals go some way to improving this by requiring the power assist to cut-out when the rider is not pedalling.

If you want to propose some alternative, then you need to think about how it could be enforced. If the motor is capable of 800MW, there will be people hacking any controls or limiters to release it - probably the same jerks getting around on overpowered petrol motors etc.,. now.

It would be exceedingly dangerous to have riders powering along at 800 W on shared bicycle paths.
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Re: NSW RTA set to change electric bike laws

Postby Joeblake » Wed Jan 26, 2011 11:58 am

wombatK wrote:If you want to propose some alternative, then you need to think about how it could be enforced. If the motor is capable of 800MW, there will be people hacking any controls or limiters to release it - probably the same jerks getting around on overpowered petrol motors etc.,. now.

It would be exceedingly dangerous to have riders powering along at 800 W on shared bicycle paths.



I agree with you about hacking etc, but remember that the greater the power output, the greater the drain on the batteries, so either the rider won't go very far at high speed or they'll have to start carrying bigger batteries, ie until the "ultimate" battery comes onto the market, which can carry Kilowatt hours worth of power in something weighing a kilogram or so. This to me seems that there will come a "self limiting" balance point where the extra mass of batteries will NEED a bigger motor and pedaling will become less important, and that vehicle then becomes an "e-scooter" or "e-motorbike", with the necessity for insurance and registration, etc.

So perhaps the police may not need fancy speed detectors/inclinometers etc, just a glance at the batteries. On a bicycle sized frame it would be very difficult to hide extra big batteries.

PC Plod: "Ullo, 'ullo, 'ullo, wot's this then? I must ask you to breathe into this Ammeter. Oh ho!! 1000 Amp hours of power, me lad? And no licence or insurance? Ooh, I think the magistrate will take a very dim view of this. I must ask you to accompany me to the power ... er police station, where you'll be charged with having too big a battery. (Did you get the joke, son? Just a little bit of fuzzy humour.)"
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Re: NSW RTA set to change electric bike laws

Postby moozoo » Wed Jan 26, 2011 4:20 pm

>Most roads are designed to have less than 15% gradient, and major roads typically have much less (less than 5%)

I was imagining a the worst case scenario.

>It would be exceedingly dangerous to have riders powering along at 800 W on shared bicycle paths.

On the flat Yes, I was actually suggesting 0W of assistance on the flat.

Explain how someone going up a 20% incline with 800W of assistance would be "exceedingly dangerous".
According to the machinehead Bicycle Power Calculator they would be going ~12km/h. (95kg rider on a 20kg bike)
Having played with the Power Calculator may be 600W would have been a better number.

Realise that 800W+ of assistance is available to all riders electric or not. Just ride down the right incline.
How does one enforce that the brakes are being applied in such situations?

>The biggest problem with the existing regulations is that the police believe they can't enforce the 200 W limit, even when they see someone powering up a 5% incline at 30 kph plus, without pedalling.

How do you get any measure of their power assistance based on pedals going around?

I agree that there are safety issues with bicycles going over 30kph by any means including high fitness and gravity assistance.
Just enforce a speed limit and require all bikes to be fitted with a microwave (speed gun) reflector...

Or are you implying that going up inclines or not pedalling somehow make accidents more likely or somehow worst.
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Re: NSW RTA set to change electric bike laws

Postby wombatK » Wed Jan 26, 2011 8:13 pm

moozoo wrote:>Most roads are designed to have less than 15% gradient, and major roads typically have much less (less than 5%)

I was imagining a the worst case scenario.

But a worst case scenario that you pretty well never face is not a reasonable basis for a power rating.
Explain how someone going up a 20% incline with 800W of assistance would be "exceedingly dangerous".

You missed my point - which is that jerks will misuse that 800W of power on the flat and even downhill, in their quest
to get from A to B faster.
How do you get any measure of their power assistance based on pedals going around?

I agree that there are safety issues with bicycles going over 30kph by any means including high fitness and gravity assistance.
Just enforce a speed limit and require all bikes to be fitted with a microwave (speed gun) reflector...

Or are you implying that going up inclines or not pedalling somehow make accidents more likely or somehow worst.

Under the proposed changes, if the pedals aren't going around, the motor must stop. That's very easy to measure and enforce if the rider is facing any kind of uphill gradient, and even on the flat.

What makes accidents less likely is the power output level. The 250 W has been chosen from measurements of unassisted cyclist commuter speeds in Melbourne - 90% of them were found to use less than 250 W. That is a logical way to determine a level of power assistance that makes an motorised bicycle similar to a pedal cyclist.

Anything more than that and you'd need to do studies to prove that it wouldn't result in speeds that were unduly hazardous to pedestrians and the riders themselves.

Lastly, many cyclists who ride on the road would regularly exceed a 30 kph limit and would not be happy with imposition of such.

What you might find more support for would be a proposal that the motorised cyclist have a 30 kph, 25kph or lower cut-out and a speed limit specifically for motor assisted cyclists of (say) 30 kph (meaning even downhill - since the extra mass presents greater risks to anyone involved in a collision).

However, speed limiters on heavy trucks have never been effective, and I doubt that they would be effectively implemented on motorised cyclists either.
WombatK

Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us -Jerry Garcia
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Re: NSW RTA set to change electric bike laws

Postby moozoo » Wed Jan 26, 2011 9:40 pm

wombatK wrote:You missed my point - which is that jerks will misuse that 800W of power on the flat and even downhill, in their quest
to get from A to B faster.


I get it. I have all along. I understand what you are saying and agree with your intent.
I just feel that power assistance is most needed going up inclines and 250W is not enough.
I was hoping for a solution to that problem.

wombatK wrote:Under the proposed changes, if the pedals aren't going around, the motor must stop. That's very easy to measure and enforce if the rider is facing any kind of uphill gradient, and even on the flat.


So I fit a 1000W pedal assist unit. My pedals still go around. How is that making it easy to enforce a power limit...

Anyway I'll leave it there.
I was only interested in using an electric assisted bike to ride to work and that is only practical for me by using a shared path that runs for a long distance parallel to the free-way.
I don't like riding any sort of bike on a road with any significant traffic.
Since turning on the power assist on a shared path is illegal anyway the whole thing is moot to me.
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