NSW RTA set to change electric bike laws

Positive discussion on ebikes and pedal assist bicycles

Re: NSW RTA set to change electric bike laws

Postby yurl » Thu Apr 29, 2010 5:16 pm

Christine Tham wrote:Prototype Lexus electric bicycle:
Image

carbon frame, 8 speed hub gearing, 240w motor.

I must admit, against my better judgement, I like.


I'm wondering how you'd reach those hoods :P
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by BNA » Fri Apr 30, 2010 12:28 am

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Re: NSW RTA set to change electric bike laws

Postby hartleymartin » Fri Apr 30, 2010 12:28 am

Why are there two STI levers when there is only an 8-speed internally geared hub?
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Re: NSW RTA set to change electric bike laws

Postby slowflow » Fri Apr 30, 2010 9:51 am

Looks good, prototype accessory for the Lexus 4*4.
Gear levers so you can use the mobile just like in the 4*4.
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Re: NSW RTA set to change electric bike laws

Postby master6 » Fri Apr 30, 2010 1:30 pm

This thread is another example of why we should get rid of the States. Groups of politicians and Public Servants in each state all sitting around talking about reinventing the wheel, and coming up with several different rules in Australia.
I could go off on a tangent about Drivers licences as an example, but I will , for once, spare you.
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Re: NSW RTA set to change electric bike laws

Postby Leigh_caines » Fri Apr 30, 2010 1:35 pm

I’ve put my 2 cents worth in and helped two guys go electric
One is 83 years old and he is strong enough to ride on the flats but has trouble getting home (which is at the top of a steep hill)…now he rides unassisted down and around town (doing 15ks a day) and uses the motor to get back home
The other is very disabled and now has a motor on his “Greenspeed tike” He was told by his Quacks that he’d never walk or ride again. But over the last 5years by doing what work he could on the peddles he’s now able to both, walk (some) and ride without the motor (most of the time).
So would you guys, who are against having any El Motor. Want to ban them so my two old mates have to stay stuck in their homes and never get out?
Sound a bit like some of you don’t like the idea of being beaten up a hill.
Put yourself in the other guys shoes.
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Re: NSW RTA set to change electric bike laws

Postby rustguard » Fri Apr 30, 2010 5:37 pm

Leigh_caines wrote:So would you guys, who are against having any El Motor. Want to ban them so my two old mates have to stay stuck in their homes and never get out?
Sound a bit like some of you don’t like the idea of being beaten up a hill.
Put yourself in the other guys shoes.

Thanks for sharing, I can only draw the conclusion that anyone who is against electric bikes is either having an oil company give generous funding to their election campaign or completely out of touch as to where our society is and is headed.

master6 wrote:This thread is another example of why we should get rid of the States. Groups of politicians and Public Servants in each state all sitting around talking about reinventing the wheel, and coming up with several different rules in Australia.
I could go off on a tangent about Drivers licences as an example, but I will , for once, spare you.


I really don't understand this. we now have almost uniform national road laws for the first time in Australian history. and laws for electric assist bikes have now been nationally standardised at 200watts.
from an electric assist point; of view under separate state laws at least some were allowed 300watts.
Have I miss interpreted your post?
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Re: NSW RTA set to change electric bike laws

Postby hartleymartin » Fri Apr 30, 2010 6:17 pm

Leigh_caines wrote:I’ve put my 2 cents worth in and helped two guys go electric
One is 83 years old and he is strong enough to ride on the flats but has trouble getting home (which is at the top of a steep hill)…now he rides unassisted down and around town (doing 15ks a day) and uses the motor to get back home
The other is very disabled and now has a motor on his “Greenspeed tike” He was told by his Quacks that he’d never walk or ride again. But over the last 5years by doing what work he could on the peddles he’s now able to both, walk (some) and ride without the motor (most of the time).
So would you guys, who are against having any El Motor. Want to ban them so my two old mates have to stay stuck in their homes and never get out?
Sound a bit like some of you don’t like the idea of being beaten up a hill.
Put yourself in the other guys shoes.


I'd ban the petrol motors. Electric-Assist is fine. However, the electric motor should be AUXILIARY propulsion. None of this treating them like unregistered electric scooters.

Image
THIS is the sort of thing which has been creating troubles for us. 200-watt electric motor scooters with pedals attached to the side.

On the other hand, the image below is clearly a bicycle with ELECTRIC ASSIST.
Image
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Re: NSW RTA set to change electric bike laws

Postby master6 » Fri Apr 30, 2010 7:22 pm

rustguard wrote:[quote"]
I really don't understand this. we now have almost uniform national road laws for the first time in Australian history. and laws for electric assist bikes have now been nationally standardised at 200watts.
from an electric assist point; of view under separate state laws at least some were allowed 300watts.
Have I miss interpreted your post?
[/quote]
I live in two states, roughly Tasmania in summer, and Queensland in winter. In Qld my wife can ride a 50cc motor scooter on her car licence. She needs a motor cycle licence to ride it in Tasmania. We need to change our Qld drivers licences to Tasmanian licences within 3 months of arrival in Tasmania (this applies to tourists too, regardless of their future intents). On return to Qld we need to convert back to a Qld licence. This all means two drivers licence swaps each year for each of us. Just a little example of a multitude of items presently dealt with by 7 sets of politicians and public servants, all striving hard to maintain their own little dung hills, at unnecessary multi-duplicate expense to the rest of us. Travel and communications that took weeks and months 100 years ago now take seconds. It is time to get rid of the leeches.
Last edited by master6 on Fri Apr 30, 2010 8:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: NSW RTA set to change electric bike laws

Postby Leigh_caines » Fri Apr 30, 2010 8:34 pm

Don't put my name on something I did not write
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Re: NSW RTA set to change electric bike laws

Postby master6 » Fri Apr 30, 2010 8:55 pm

Leigh_caines wrote:Don't put my name on something I did not write

I apologise Leigh. You did not write this. I was quoting Rust, and you were intermingled there through no fault of your own, and in trying to delete some to minimise and simplify , I incorrectly left your name in the revised piece.
Just when I thought I was perfect, I have clipped the wheel and come a gutsa.
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Re: NSW RTA set to change electric bike laws

Postby Leigh_caines » Sat May 01, 2010 5:06 am

No worries
Keep it rubber side down :)
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Re: NSW RTA set to change electric bike laws

Postby Leigh_caines » Sat May 01, 2010 5:24 am

Martin (I won’t be voting you in as god as you’d have to many laws for me.)

> I'd ban the petrol motors. Electric-Assist is fine. However, the electric motor should be AUXILIARY propulsion<

In my second example of my old mate Tony …he couldn’t at first ride at all without the motor… it was only after months of trying and working his bugged legs that he could at last ride without using the motor.
So you’d have him “banned” from riding as he did not have it as “AUXILIARY propulsion”
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Re: NSW RTA set to change electric bike laws

Postby wombatK » Sat May 01, 2010 8:31 am

Leigh_caines wrote: In my second example of my old mate Tony …he couldn’t at first ride at all without the motor… it was only after months of trying and working his bugged legs that he could at last ride without using the motor.
So you’d have him “banned” from riding as he did not have it as “AUXILIARY propulsion”

You've picked out some quite unrepresentative users of motorised BSO's - my observation of those using them is that virtually all of them fall into a much younger age bracket and don't have any obvious disability. So it's a bit severe to base policy and law on rare cases like them and question Martin's intentions. Laws have to do what's best for the whole community, and can't always be fair to everyone.

Nevertheless, there are other vehicle categories in the Road Rules that could probably cater for people with the level of disability you are describing - such as the motorised scooters. There is a 10 kph speed limit on them (Rule 244A), but that shouldn't be problematic for someone who's interest is rehab; plenty of unfit noobie cyclists would have trouble maintaining 10 kph uphill anyway. So for these cases, just limit the motor-assisted speed to 10 kph. And they don't have to wear helmets, and can ride on the footpaths.
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Re: NSW RTA set to change electric bike laws

Postby kibnedyo » Sat May 01, 2010 9:13 am

Greetings Master,

If you travel between 2 states as you do, the requirement to change licence each time is not quite true.

You will need to pick the one that you will calim as your main domicile and use that licence. Sure the Police would give you a hard time should they stop you, but if you categorically state "I intend to go home" there is very little they can do and no offence can be registered. You do not even have to provide a timeline for your return, simply stating you intent to return is enough.

Once I was stopped in WA simply 'cos I was driving a Vic plated car. They verbally gave me a hard time saying I must register the car in WA and change my licence, buyt I kept politely ststing an intention to return home. All they could do was strongly advise me to reregister the car etc, but couldn't actually force me to do so even though again I politely ststed there was little point due to my intention to return. Since then I have also met gentleman who has driven a firebird on a US licence for 20 years. He still uses the line, but I think that is a very extreme case. Your biannual migration should not be harmed by bureaucratic crap.

I had this difficulty living in Perth for a year. I couldn't seee the point of changing my licence so took the advice of a Policeman friend of mine to use those 5 little words.

It will be quite easy for you as you will obviously be maintaining two domiciles and postal addresses, so can easily prove an intent to return. Pull out a bill or other official letter from the glove box from the home you choose and say that is where I live and I intend to return.
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Re: NSW RTA set to change electric bike laws

Postby m@ » Sat May 01, 2010 9:19 am

Bit o/t... But what happens if you are involved in an accident after the four month limit - could you be viewed as an unlicensed driver of an unregistered vehicle?

Might be worth keeping an e-bike in the boot in case you're stopped! ;)
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Re: NSW RTA set to change electric bike laws

Postby hartleymartin » Sat May 01, 2010 12:20 pm

Leigh_caines wrote:Martin (I won’t be voting you in as god as you’d have to many laws for me.)

> I'd ban the petrol motors. Electric-Assist is fine. However, the electric motor should be AUXILIARY propulsion<

In my second example of my old mate Tony …he couldn’t at first ride at all without the motor… it was only after months of trying and working his bugged legs that he could at last ride without using the motor.
So you’d have him “banned” from riding as he did not have it as “AUXILIARY propulsion”


Here, we'd have to delve deeper into the definitions of auxiliary propulsion. The current proposal is that the electric motor will only operate whilst the pedals are turning and that it will cut-out at 25kph. Basically, the idea is to stop people from turning bicycles into unregistered scooters/mopeds. Of course, auxiliary power like this does not prevent an "assist" even if the pedals are barely moving, and at the moment there is no regulation stating how the power-assist is regulated. It is still quite possible not to exclude your friend.

One of my mates (whom I stopped after explaining all the technical issues to him) basically wanted to turn a bicycle into a motor-bike. Apparently he had met someone on the road doing 70kph on one of them, and that was what he wanted to do.
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Re: NSW RTA set to change electric bike laws

Postby Leigh_caines » Sat May 01, 2010 1:52 pm

WombatK

>You've picked out some quite unrepresentative users of motorised BSO's <<

Well I can only go on my town (what you say may be true for your town) and in my town (Pop 7500) there are 4 of these El Bikes …. The 2 I already talked about and one old lady who has un upright 3 wheeler and comes into town and get her shopping and the last one is a “fat guy” (not so young) who looks like he needs help on the hills>
So no I don’t see young ones zooming around town on them… the kids around here have ‘trail bikes’ with a hell of a lot more power then a 200w (or 300w or 500w) El Bike and I think they are more of a danger then some old guy coming to town for a coffee.
If the world is going to get away from the use of oil then the more people on bikes (both El and every other types of push bikes) the better.
More bikes less cars has got to be a good thing. (says one who loves his bikes)
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Re: NSW RTA set to change electric bike laws

Postby Leigh_caines » Sat May 01, 2010 2:14 pm

I’ve read enough of Martin’s posts to know his heart is in the right spot
But sorry Martin you still don’t get my vote on wanting more laws
Get on your Raleigh 20 and go for a ride and think how lucky we are to be in a land where we don’t have some tyrant telling us what we can and cannot do.

Instead of new laws what about getting the message out to car drivers that a bike (and the rider) is already protected by laws (that a lot of drivers seem un aware of).
I’ve ridden in other countries where the drivers share the road and it’s so much nicer then almost being killed ever second day.
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Re: NSW RTA set to change electric bike laws

Postby master6 » Sat May 01, 2010 3:39 pm

m@ wrote:Bit o/t... But what happens if you are involved in an accident after the four month limit - could you be viewed as an unlicensed driver of an unregistered vehicle?

Might be worth keeping an e-bike in the boot in case you're stopped! ;)

Correct in respect of the Drivers Licence. Registration is subject to a different set of rules, which are a little more lenient.
An insurer could use the licence situation to avoid a claim. I speak from my experience as a former Motor Vehicle Claims officer for a well known insurer. (and Dip.Gen.Ins Aust Ins Inst.)
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Re: NSW RTA set to change electric bike laws

Postby master6 » Sat May 01, 2010 3:46 pm

Leigh_caines wrote:I’ve read enough of Martin’s posts to know his heart is in the right spot
But sorry Martin you still don’t get my vote on wanting more laws
Get on your Raleigh 20 and go for a ride and think how lucky we are to be in a land where we don’t have some tyrant telling us what we can and cannot do.

Instead of new laws what about getting the message out to car drivers that a bike (and the rider) is already protected by laws (that a lot of drivers seem un aware of).
I’ve ridden in other countries where the drivers share the road and it’s so much nicer then almost being killed ever second day.

Reminds me of my meeting with a touring german cycling couple a little while back, just outside Hobart.
The man asked me "Why do they throw things at us and swear at us? I had to admit that we have some idiots here. Only a few months previously I had used Tasmanias "Littering Hot Line" to report a woman who threw a can at me from her car window, in the middle of Sorell. I have been advised that she was issued with a warning letter, and placed on a list of known litterers, in case of further offences.
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Re: NSW RTA set to change electric bike laws

Postby hartleymartin » Sat May 01, 2010 4:25 pm

Leigh_caines wrote:I’ve read enough of Martin’s posts to know his heart is in the right spot
But sorry Martin you still don’t get my vote on wanting more laws
Get on your Raleigh 20 and go for a ride and think how lucky we are to be in a land where we don’t have some tyrant telling us what we can and cannot do.

Instead of new laws what about getting the message out to car drivers that a bike (and the rider) is already protected by laws (that a lot of drivers seem un aware of).
I’ve ridden in other countries where the drivers share the road and it’s so much nicer then almost being killed ever second day.


I'm not suggesting new laws. I'm suggesting a modification of the existing definitions for a power-assisted bicycle.

In any case, I agree with you that we need to find an effective way of getting the message out there that cyclists have legal rights and responsibilities on the road, and need to be treated fairly. At the moment the best way I can see of doing this is to make it known that you cycle everywhere, and make it seen that you cycle everywhere. Anyone who has a friend who cycles around a lot is more likely to treat cyclists on the road with greater courtesy. When any of my friends see a cyclist on the road, they instantly think of me. A number of them have approached me and asked what they should do if they see a cyclist on the road.
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Re: NSW RTA set to change electric bike laws

Postby Marlin 3030 » Sat May 01, 2010 6:26 pm

hartleymartin wrote:
Chill, relax and learn to happily pootle along at 15-20kph.



That's me described to a T.

Maybe after a while (like when I regain some fitness) that'll change but in the mean time 8)




NewStew wrote:One of the guys at work here has an electric assist bike which he bought when his car got totalled (to replace not supplement). If it wasnt for the electric factor he probably wouldnt ride to work due to the seabreeze in Perth making travelling 25-30km south in the afternoon a pretty hard introduction into bicycle commuting. As it is he rides the electric bike almost every day (occasionally using public transport), which he probably would never have done without the electric assist.

If it gets more people cycling and exercising in general then I am all for it. As long as the power output limit is kept such that the top speed is around the speed of a normal fast cyclist on flat ground. I dont buy the argument about inexperienced cyclist flying along and causing accidents - after all the most noob gumby cyclist can do 50km/h down a hill (I know I did) and is probably only slower up the hill an on the flat. My mate tells me the electric does nothing above about 30km/h and if you want to go fater you need either more leg power or gravity assist.




I'm keen to hear more about your workmates bike. Some pictures would be fricken' awesome as well :P
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Re: NSW RTA set to change electric bike laws

Postby rustguard » Sun May 02, 2010 10:46 pm

hartleymartin wrote:I'm not suggesting new laws. I'm suggesting a modification of the existing definitions for a power-assisted bicycle.

Martin, what you are suggesting is what you think for your self, the bike you describe would suit you fine and be what you desire with your vision. Another way to look at an issue is to imagine what other peoples needs are.
While everyone on this forum is a cyclist of one form or another, many people who would be governed under these laws are not. If cheap efficient electric cycles were available as proven in nsw with the ebike many people would embrace that and do away with the smoggy petrol gusling car. While this may not increase cycling at all, it would make drivers more alert to other forms of transport and if used alot would make the air cleaner for cyclist as they were riding on the public streets

hartleymartin wrote:The current proposal is that the electric motor will only operate whilst the pedals are turning and that it will cut-out at 25kph.

apart from making the bike more expensive by forcing them to include a complicated governing switch, which would also would make the bike less reliable. you kill all markets except for the cyclist the one customer that isn't that interested in electric bikes because he can already pedal it himself.

This law is another stealth attack by lobbyist to stop alternative forms of transport gaining a foothold
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Re: NSW RTA set to change electric bike laws

Postby hartleymartin » Sun May 02, 2010 11:09 pm

rustguard - that's not my proposal - that is what the RTA proposal is, and apparently plenty of people in Europe have been happily using the same bicycles for years.
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Re: NSW RTA set to change electric bike laws

Postby Leigh_caines » Mon May 03, 2010 4:55 am

>This law is another stealth attack by lobbyist to stop alternative forms of transport gaining a foothold>

That sounds right to me... well said
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