NSW RTA set to change electric bike laws

Positive discussion on ebikes and pedal assist bicycles

Re: NSW RTA set to change electric bike laws

Postby wombatK » Mon May 03, 2010 7:17 am

rustguard wrote:apart from making the bike more expensive by forcing them to include a complicated governing switch, which would also would make the bike less reliable. you kill all markets except for the cyclist the one customer that isn't that interested in electric bikes because he can already pedal it himself.

This law is another stealth attack by lobbyist to stop alternative forms of transport gaining a foothold

That's an over-reaction. Adding a motor with driving gears is certainly adding complication to a bicycle. PUtting a governing mechanism on it, particularly for an electric motor, is a trivial addition.

There is a market that wants pedal assistance on bicycles, as overseas countries show. There is a market that wants power assistance only. The second market is served by the well-developed registered motor cycle provisions of the law. The RTA's proposals are for the pedal assistance market segment, which as the petrol powered speeding BSO's show, needs further refinement.
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by BNA » Mon May 03, 2010 9:15 am

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Re: NSW RTA set to change electric bike laws

Postby NewStew » Mon May 03, 2010 9:15 am

Marlin 3030 wrote:I'm keen to hear more about your workmates bike. Some pictures would be fricken' awesome as well :P


Cant help you right now with pics or details as he is on holidays (timing hey). I know he bought it from a shop on Burswood Rd in Burswood here in Perth and it cost him around $3,000. I will try and get some details when he gets back to work in a couple of weeks.

Edit - Actually I did some web searching and found it. See http://www.electricbicycle.com.au/commuter_hybrid.html (not sure if it is OK to post links here but mods feel free to delete it and Marlin can PM me for the link)

Looks like the exchange rate has improved prices a bid (mostly for the battery I guess.
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Re: NSW RTA set to change electric bike laws

Postby hartleymartin » Mon May 03, 2010 9:33 am

Goodness! At 26kg, it weighs more than any of my clunkers. I suppose most of this additional weight is in the battery. It'll come down as battery technology improves.
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Re: NSW RTA set to change electric bike laws

Postby master6 » Mon May 03, 2010 9:35 am

hartleymartin wrote:rustguard - that's not my proposal - that is what the RTA proposal is, and apparently plenty of people in Europe have been happily using the same bicycles for years.

If all wisdom originates in Europe, how come they haven't discovered soap and water? :D :D :D :D
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Re: NSW RTA set to change electric bike laws

Postby rustguard » Mon May 03, 2010 2:13 pm

hartleymartin wrote:rustguard - that's not my proposal - that is what the RTA proposal is

of coarse but you pegged your support for it.
wombatK wrote:PUtting a governing mechanism on it, particularly for an electric motor, is a trivial addition.

wrong it is not a switch but a governing device, very complicated and not standard and not mass produced with the kits or bikes so would have to be fitted as an after thought; Very expensive and like all tack on crap unreliable.
see last post-
rustguard wrote:This law is another stealth attack by lobbyist to stop alternative forms of transport gaining a foothold


wombatK wrote:The RTA's proposals are for the pedal assistance market segment, which as the petrol powered speeding BSO's show, needs further refinement.

I dont know if you realise; The crack down in nsw was on ebikes which was orchestrated from above ie. the police were told from above to crack down on ebikes.
No such campaigns have been taken towards internal combustion engines.
the proposal martin is talking about would have no effect on the petrol bso's you are talking about, which by the way are already illegal for road use.

It comes down to whether it would be better for a non cyclist to drive a barina or ride an ebike?
with an ebike there are benefits to the environment, individuals, to the community and to cyclists.

While no power assist bike is as pure as a 'bicycle' there is certainly a place for them outside the cycling community. As the ADR's stand it would be prohibitly expensive to produce an ebike to comply for such a small market as australia. Back in the seventies you may have seen some mopeds that looked like postie bikes with pedals. Well never again, It was sometime in the eighties when mopeds were effectively banned by the ADR laws. for any moped to pass the ADR the weight alone would make it unfeasible.
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Re: NSW RTA set to change electric bike laws

Postby Marlin 3030 » Tue May 04, 2010 6:25 pm

Pedego brings a blast from the past to modern e-bikes

http://www.gizmag.com/pedego-electric-r ... kes/14883/


Image


This is seriously cool. Shame it exceeds Australian standards :roll:
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Re: NSW RTA set to change electric bike laws

Postby rustguard » Tue May 04, 2010 8:20 pm

Marlin 3030 wrote:This is seriously cool. Shame it exceeds Australian standards :roll:

yeah 500watts and it has a top speed of 20mph which I think is 31kms.
you start to see how ridiculous(devious) the 200watt limit really is :cry:
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Re: NSW RTA set to change electric bike laws

Postby wombatK » Tue May 04, 2010 10:52 pm

rustguard wrote:
Marlin 3030 wrote:This is seriously cool. Shame it exceeds Australian standards :roll:

yeah 500watts and it has a top speed of 20mph which I think is 31kms.
you start to see how ridiculous(devious) the 200watt limit really is :cry:

The RTA's draft papers are suggesting a 250 watt limit. There's not much that's devious or ridiculous about it if you read the full story in their papers.

The bike pictured by Marlin 3030 is giving a rating per the American and Canadian regulations. 20 mph is 32 kph (or 32.18 if you want to be fussier).
The Canadian and American definitions mention a speed of 32km/h. This is not a maximum
assisted speed
, but rather an indication of the speed achievable on motor power only. In Canada,
the British Columbia Motor Vehicle Act states: ‘The motor of a motor assisted cycle must … not
be capable of propelling the motor assisted cycle at a speed greater than 32km/h on level
ground.’

The 32 km/h speed limit, as described by the Canadian and American Regulations, cannot be seen
as effectively limiting the speed achievable with motor assistance, because at speeds above 32
km/h, the motor can still assist the rider.

The RTA have very sensibly looked at the potential total power output and speeds that are achievable for a rider who is providing pedal assistance. The Canadian regs say that 500W is the level that a well-trained athlete can maintain for a short period of time. How short ?

NASA tested various categories of people. Someone in their "healthy men" category could maintain 250W for about 30 minutes; Eddy Mercyx could maintain it for over 12 hours (i.e. until sleep required). A NASA "first class athelete" could maintain 500W for around 3 minutes. Eddy Mercyx could maintain 500W for about 40 minutes on an ergometer. A "healthy man" could do 500W for less than 1 minute. There aren't too many people out there who can commute to work at an average power output of 500W, or even at 250W.

With 500W motor assistance, plus 250 W pedalling from the cyclist, the Canadian e-bike would be pretty easily rolling along on the flat at over 37 kph. They would be significantly faster than the elite cyclist producing 500W, and well over the speed measured in the Monash study for average cyclists.

Potentially there could be a lot more 500W bicycle riders than we have elite cyclists out there - and that would present a very adverse shift in the risks to vulnerable road users.

A 250W motor assistance gives an average fit person almost the same performance capability (total 450W) as the elite cyclist (500W), but in a way that's sustainable over a much longer period. The delightful Mr Scruby would most likely take issue with dangers this could present if lots of people took up 250 W pedal assisted bikes. So we should be thankful for small mercies if lifting to 250W from 200W does get up.

Objectively, there's not too much to be disappointed with in a bicycle that can move you along on the flat at 32 kph unassisted. That's quite a respectable speed compared to average motor vehicle speeds on Sydney roads.

Edit: 5/5/2010:

The NASA power measurements seem to understate the speed for a given power. Twizzle has reported in this thread than he can average 39 kph with 374 W of power over 20 minutes. 500W could obviously get him moving quite faster - maybe 42 to 45 kph, and clearly for much longer.
Last edited by wombatK on Wed May 05, 2010 6:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: NSW RTA set to change electric bike laws

Postby rustguard » Wed May 05, 2010 2:38 am

wombatK wrote:With 500W motor assistance, plus 250 W pedalling from the cyclist, the Canadian e-bike would be pretty easily rolling along on the flat at over 37 kph. They would be significantly faster than the elite cyclist producing 500W, and well over the speed measured in the Monash study for average cyclists.

you have not included the very significant extra drag of an elitric assist bike, so these speeds are not accurate.

wombatK wrote:A 250W motor assistance gives an average fit person almost the same performance capability (total 450W) as the elite cyclist (500W), but in a way that's sustainable over a much longer period.

yes that takes it back to my last post its very good for a fit cyclist; but this is the one market that doesn't really need an ebike and many simply arent interested in an ebike, In fact many cyclists actually like to propel the bike themselves without an engine :shock:
but as I have already said this makes the ebike an unsustainable prospect to 90% of the population.

I dont know why would you want to aim this bike at cyclists? an electric powered bike or scooter would be the ideal transport for many Australians who are now solely driving cars, imagine the improvement in road sharing if people on mass started to ride ebikes and scooters, cyclist would actually be able to integrate and be considered as legitimate road users for once, elderly retirees could enjoy the wind in their faces (without a convertible). disabled people could ride a bike at more than 10km an hour.

Of coarse there would be a price to pay- petrol sales would be reduced, which in turn would lead to less fuel tax revenue, which may increase the gst a couple of percent. Soldiers would be out of work for a while as there would be no oil wars to fight, but no for too long as soon we would be fighting over uranium or coal or something else.

wombatK wrote:The RTA's draft papers are suggesting a 250 watt limit. There's not much that's devious or ridiculous about it if you read the full story in their papers.

oh thats not all their devious little draft is suggesting. :shock:
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Re: NSW RTA set to change electric bike laws

Postby wombatK » Wed May 05, 2010 7:17 am

rustguard wrote:you have not included the very significant extra drag of an elitric assist bike, so these speeds are not accurate.

Read the full RTA report. They have fully accounted for the effects of bike weight and what you refer to as "drag"; these are relatively minor. Your "drag" is roughly proportional to the cross sectional area you present to the wind - and that changes in only very minor respects on an e-bike like the gizmag one. Weight makes a difference primarily when climbing, and the RTA reports deal with that.

The 32 kph speed you quoted did not account for a much more significant factor - the extra speed available when you pedal. As a pedal cyclist, I don't ride flat cycleways at 37 kph and I don't want to share cycleways with hordes of e-bikers zooming past me at that speed. If you want performance outside the normal cycleway parameters, register your high-powered e-bike for on-road use as a motor cycle.

Cheers
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Re: NSW RTA set to change electric bike laws

Postby Recycler » Wed May 05, 2010 12:07 pm

Please every one check the Dragster/ Lowriders/ Crusiers forum. Custom e-Crusier site and think a bit more how some people need a more powerfull e-bike. Remember live and let live. Bob
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Re: NSW RTA set to change electric bike laws

Postby rustguard » Wed May 05, 2010 2:55 pm

wombatK wrote:The 32 kph speed you quoted did not account for a much more significant factor - the extra speed available when you pedal. As a pedal cyclist, I don't ride flat cycleways at 37 kph and I don't want to share cycleways with hordes of e-bikers zooming past me at that speed. If you want performance outside the normal cycleway parameters, register your high-powered e-bike for on-road use as a motor cycle.

Cheers

In wa there is a law that prohibits engaging power assist on any dual use path, problem solved. Also just because you dont like something is not an excuse, we need to look at the benefit for the community as a whole. this should outway an objection based on not liking to be overtaken? or having traffic increased on the psp. Personally I'd much rather be overtaken by an ebike than a landcruiser; but hey thats just my opinion.
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Re: NSW RTA set to change electric bike laws

Postby zero » Wed May 05, 2010 5:16 pm

rustguard wrote:
wombatK wrote:The 32 kph speed you quoted did not account for a much more significant factor - the extra speed available when you pedal. As a pedal cyclist, I don't ride flat cycleways at 37 kph and I don't want to share cycleways with hordes of e-bikers zooming past me at that speed. If you want performance outside the normal cycleway parameters, register your high-powered e-bike for on-road use as a motor cycle.

Cheers

In wa there is a law that prohibits engaging power assist on any dual use path, problem solved. Also just because you dont like something is not an excuse, we need to look at the benefit for the community as a whole. this should outway an objection based on not liking to be overtaken? or having traffic increased on the psp. Personally I'd much rather be overtaken by an ebike than a landcruiser; but hey thats just my opinion.


Its got nothing to do with the overtaking, its got everything to do with the amount of force in a collision, and the available sight lines on paths engineered for unpowered bicycles, and the experience of pedestrians on shared paths.

Anyone thats walked over Anzac Bridge to Rozelle can explain how pedestrian unfriendly the bottom of the dip is (bicycles at speed in both directions - riders threading the needle between pedestrians and oncoming bicycles etc), and proposals to allow powered bicycles with superhuman performance will create the same experience all over the share path network. This is because 500w bicycles even with bad ungeared hub designs will still climb at nearly their maximum speed, and therefore closing speeds will be increased all over the path systems.

I'm all for the RTA proposal, because that will keep the majority of bikes within normal fit human performance criteria. If someone wants something faster, then buy an electric motorcycle and use it on the road.

Non engagement laws aren't worth the paper they are written on, especially on an ebike. :roll:
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Re: NSW RTA set to change electric bike laws

Postby Mulger bill » Wed May 05, 2010 7:39 pm

250, 500, 1000 watts whatever.

It's not the ebikes themselves that are the problem.

Society has been working for millenia on the problem and to date has still not arrived at a true solution for human stupidity. Workarounds are not fixes.

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Re: NSW RTA set to change electric bike laws

Postby human909 » Wed May 05, 2010 10:56 pm

Restricting Ebikes to pedal assist only makes NO rational sense and only arises from jealous non Ebike users. In regulating bikes and other vehicals what matters is their affect on other citizens. Not whether the user is working up a sweat or not. In this respect it is far better to put mass, speed and energy level limits on bikes than anything else. Because it is the kinetic energy is what endangers other users. The easiest way of doing this is to limit the power assist to a certain power level.

If I was to redesign dense urban transport covered cycle paths with E-bikes would be an far more efficient than existing transport methods.

Personally I haven't been that interested in Ebikes but after looking at these I'm almost tempted to get an Ebike for commuting myself. :oops: I'm not exactly unfit, I normally average 30kph+ on my commutes but I am lazy and I do like the benefit of getting to my destination in regular clothes and not sweaty. After living in Holland as a child I do see cycling as something you don't need to sweat for.
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Re: NSW RTA set to change electric bike laws

Postby wombatK » Thu May 06, 2010 9:24 am

human909 wrote:Restricting Ebikes to pedal assist only makes NO rational sense and only arises from jealous non Ebike users.

But The JamisCodaEVO3 which you've linked to is one that states
Riding an electric bicycle still allows the rider to gain a good level of aerobic fitness. Pedal function is required as well the motor.

human909 wrote:
In regulating bikes and other vehicals what matters is their affect on other citizens. Not whether the user is working up a sweat or not. In this respect it is far better to put mass, speed and energy level limits on bikes than anything else. Because it is the kinetic energy is what endangers other users. The easiest way of doing this is to limit the power assist to a certain power level.

If I was to redesign dense urban transport covered cycle paths with E-bikes would be an far more efficient than existing transport methods.

Personally I haven't been that interested in Ebikes but after looking at these I'm almost tempted to get an Ebike for commuting myself. :oops: I'm not exactly unfit, I normally average 30kph+ on my commutes but I am lazy and I do like the benefit of getting to my destination in regular clothes and not sweaty. After living in Holland as a child I do see cycling as something you don't need to sweat for.


The EVO bike has a 200W motor that is compliant with the current Road Rules. It states that its top speed is 35 kph with pedal assist.. RTA has no problem with such a bike, and is even proposing a 25% higher power rating. It's 40 km range would not be suitable for my commute, but there is a beefier battery option in the EVO kits; and the 40 km range would suit a heck of a lot of commuters.
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Re: NSW RTA set to change electric bike laws

Postby human909 » Thu May 06, 2010 11:13 am

wombatK wrote:But The JamisCodaEVO3 which you've linked to is one that states
Riding an electric bicycle still allows the rider to gain a good level of aerobic fitness. Pedal function is required as well the motor.


The bike's electric motor doesn't require the rider to pedal in most circumstances. How can it? Its front HUB mounted!

wombatK wrote:The EVO bike has a 200W motor that is compliant with the current Road Rules. It states that its top speed is 35 kph with pedal assist.. RTA has no problem with such a bike, and is even proposing a 25% higher power rating. It's 40 km range would not be suitable for my commute, but there is a beefier battery option in the EVO kits; and the 40 km range would suit a heck of a lot of commuters.

Its range is a hell of alot more if you get the better battery option and you actually pedal yourself. According to online power calculators I average 250W, which is pretty good. If you cruise along at 150W from body and 100W from motor you'll get your commute down pretty quickly, have around 100km range and be alot less sweaty when you get to work.
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Re: NSW RTA set to change electric bike laws

Postby rustguard » Thu May 06, 2010 11:51 am

zero wrote:Its got nothing to do with the overtaking

Oh really?
wombatK wrote:I don't want to share cycleways with hordes of e-bikers zooming past me at that speed.

zero wrote:Non engagement laws aren't worth the paper they are written on, especially on an ebike. :roll:

that so? why on earth are you supporting more laws on paper? On an ebike. :roll:
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Re: NSW RTA set to change electric bike laws

Postby zero » Thu May 06, 2010 3:12 pm

rustguard wrote:
zero wrote:Its got nothing to do with the overtaking

Oh really?
wombatK wrote:I don't want to share cycleways with hordes of e-bikers zooming past me at that speed.



Thats a single users opinion, which I might point out the bleedingly obvious - isn't me. Why not discuss the actual point I raised in my post ?- pedestrian view is important with regard to share infrastructure.

zero wrote:Non engagement laws aren't worth the paper they are written on, especially on an ebike. :roll:

that so? why on earth are you supporting more laws on paper? On an ebike. :roll:


Laws controlling manfuctured product are generally effective and easily enforced. Most manufacturers will comply right away.

Laws that impact behaviour of individuals, require education of a significant number of police officers, considerable enforcement cost and time and extreme difficulty of detection (silent motor, soft pedal etc), should be avoided as overly costly and not efficient at the task.
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Re: NSW RTA set to change electric bike laws

Postby rustguard » Thu May 06, 2010 6:07 pm

zero wrote:Why not discuss the actual point I raised in my post ?- pedestrian view is important with regard to share infrastructure.

Your kidding right? Do you really think pedestrians want any bikes at all?



zero wrote:Laws controlling manfuctured product are generally effective and easily enforced. Most manufacturers will comply right away.

None of these e- parts are manufactured for the australian market, They are what is produced for larger overseas markets.

zero wrote:Laws that impact behaviour of individuals, require education of a significant number of police officers, considerable enforcement cost and time and extreme difficulty of detection (silent motor, soft pedal etc), should be avoided as overly costly and not efficient at the task.

I totally agree 100% its what I have been trying to say all the way through this thread. Glad you have finally realised that these ebike restrictions are just a load of red tape rubbish and a hindrance to the healthy growth of modern society
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Re: NSW RTA set to change electric bike laws

Postby hartleymartin » Thu May 06, 2010 6:35 pm

From the RTA website This clearly shows the difference between a power-assisted bicycle and a low-powered unregistered motor scooter.

[img]http://api.ning.com/files/rnF*knFHBbFogg3zAP8J1iVnNXKK3Y56WGvlvg4txlSqlb724JQ8oTrzbLoPf9RFAq8Mm1qU5euj9gY7PGZgjWuAyh45T4Ut
/ScreenShot005.png[/img]
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Re: NSW RTA set to change electric bike laws

Postby Aushiker » Fri May 07, 2010 12:59 am

Hi

On the subject of electric bikes, a wireless one enters the US market according to BikeRadar.com

Image

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Re: NSW RTA set to change electric bike laws

Postby wombatK » Fri May 07, 2010 6:58 am

Aushiker wrote:Hi

On the subject of electric bikes, a wireless one enters the US market according to BikeRadar.com

Andrew

Looks flash - although as the article suggests, the seat post clearance from the rear suspension is problematic. More serious trouble would be sidewinds hitting full disk wheels if you were motoring along at 45 kph. Pretty scary, even on a bike weighing in at 26 kg. You don't see full disk wheels on road bikes for a good reason.

Although it claims a top speed of 32 kph, it's got a 500W motor and would be outside the bounds of what our current and proposed law would allow.
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Re: NSW RTA set to change electric bike laws

Postby master6 » Fri May 07, 2010 8:44 am

Aushiker wrote:Hi

On the subject of electric bikes, a wireless one enters the US market according to BikeRadar.com

Image

Andrew


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Andrew. do you have a calendar?
mine says May 7, not April 1.
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Re: NSW RTA set to change electric bike laws

Postby Recycler » Fri May 07, 2010 3:19 pm

Did anyone check the Custom e- Crusier on Dragsters/Lowriders/Crusiers, any thoughts on this mans needs for a bit more power that is now legal, or you all pushing your own barrow. Maybe think of what someone else may need! This thread could have been very constructive but has turned into a me me me fest. :roll: :roll: :roll: I am out of here! Bob
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