Why ebikes are good / bad

cj7hawk
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Re: Why ebikes are good / bad

Postby cj7hawk » Tue May 05, 2015 11:29 pm

What sort of distance were you getting between the bike failures Comedian? ( eg, how many K's did you have to ride before it broke )

Just curious -

David

Lurkin
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Re: Why ebikes are good / bad

Postby Lurkin » Sun May 10, 2015 8:19 pm

Bafang mid drive kit for the win!(Em3ev).

If I was spending 3k+ I would be looking to Haibikes, not Reid rubbish (have owned 5+ Reid bikes).

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Re: Why ebikes are good / bad

Postby eldavo » Sun May 10, 2015 11:36 pm

Reid are just importing Corratec Bosch e-bikes, while signalling their own (cheap) brand may happen end of year.

Reid Cycles wrote:Proudly exclusive to Reid Cycles
Reid Cycles are proud to be the exclusive distributor of Corratec eBikes in Australia.

Although Reid typically sell our own brand bikes direct to the public, in the eBike space there is an incredible amount of research and development being done by the leading manufacturers and we wanted to bring the benefits of this work to our customers.

Reid has strong buying power and have sourced these bikes from Corratec to sell direct to you through our own stores at an unbeatable price. In fact, if you find a better price on a bike using the Bosch eBike system we’ll beat that price by $100.

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Re: Why ebikes are good / bad

Postby Aushiker » Mon May 11, 2015 6:29 pm

Lurkin wrote:Bafang mid drive kit for the win!(Em3ev).

If I was spending 3k+ I would be looking to Haibikes, not Reid rubbish (have owned 5+ Reid bikes).


Haibike Australia are not importing anything like the Corratec referred to from what I can see. Hardly any point in buying a bike because of the "brand" if it is not suitable for the intended use.

Andrew
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Re: Why ebikes are good / bad

Postby eldavo » Tue May 12, 2015 1:07 am

Q: Why are ebikes good?
A: Growth area with new bigger players taking market share from a small volume import game.
Corratec 29er Trekking Diamond
RRP $2999
http://www.reidcycles.com.au/corratec-2 ... amond.html
(Bosch Active 50Nm 25kph, 6061 road/trekking rigid frame, rack, mudguards, Alfine 8, rigid fork)

Q: Why are ebikes bad?
A: Like regular bikes, you can pay twice as much for a similar product.
HAIBIKE XDURO TREKKING RX 700C
RRP $5999
http://melbourneelectricbicycles.com.au ... g-rx-700c/
(Bosch Performance 60Nm 25kph, 6061 mtb/trekking rigid frame, rack, mudguards, DualDrive, 63mm fork)

cj7hawk
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Re: Why ebikes are good / bad

Postby cj7hawk » Tue May 12, 2015 11:26 am

I'll try for ten things...

Hmmm. The good things -
1. You can build a basic ebike that will get you around the neighborhood for about $500 ( including bike ). You can build a fairly good one for $1000. So they are fairly cheap. You can also get new cheap ones for about the same already made up. The same logic that applies to pedal cycles doesn't necessarily apply to ebikes, so cheap ones can be OK.
2. They do make it a lot easier to ride for older people, especially those with health related issues. Or dicky knees.
3. They allow a decent speed to be maintained during a trip.
4. The laws still allow you to make them yourself.
5. If you do DIY, repairs are relatively inexpensive and parts can be quite cheap ( PAPC only, not Pedelec )
6. You can de-rate a bigger engine and get a more reliable ebike. ( PAPC only, not Pedelec )
7. Contrary to popular belief, you do get a lot of exercise on one.
8. People still have the belief that they are worth a fortune, so they hold resale value - even if completely stuffed.
9. They really help you get off from a standard start.
10. Extra power means things like better lights as an option.

And the bad things about ebikes.
1. There are elements within the cycling community that will hate you just because you don't have to pedal.
2. Strava doesn't recognize ebikes. ( Though in light of #1 of the bad things, maybe that's poetic ).
3. A lot of people are riding overpowered bikes ( it costs less to make a 1000w bike than it does a 200w bike ) which is likely to cause future issues.
4. Pedelecs are somewhat dangerous by design, need to be repaired with specific parts and have legality issues within WA still, but are the only way to get 250w maximum.
5. They weight a little bit more - OK a lot more - and aren't so easy to hop up a kerb.
6. They require charging - which is a pain in the butt.
7. The batteries can be expensive to replace and have a limited lifetime. Also, they can't be run down and left flat without issues.
8. Lithiums aren't exactly known for their safety record. And you're charging them overnight under your roof !
9. A big increase in power ( eg, 100w to 200w ) doesn't make a big difference in speed, but does drain your batteries more than twice as fast.
10. 250w is way too low off the cycle path... 500w or even 1kW would be more realistic for road use.

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Re: Why ebikes are good / bad

Postby geebee » Tue May 12, 2015 12:07 pm

Just a quick reply to some of the bad points
4. In what way more dangerous, what illegal parts? my bikes are legal and so are the parts.
5. Yes they are heavier but my e-folder is 14 kg my eledtric recumbent trike is 19.5 kg all up.
6. I have bnever considered pluging in a lead to be a pain.
9. More dependent on bike design, hub or crank drive, speed up hill van change massively.
10. Try a crank drive, my fully legal Tonaro will wheel stand taking of on steep hills due to gearing, the climbing limit is traction or ability to keep the front wheel on the ground :)

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Re: Why ebikes are good / bad

Postby cj7hawk » Tue May 12, 2015 3:57 pm

geebee wrote:Just a quick reply to some of the bad points
4. In what way more dangerous, what illegal parts? my bikes are legal and so are the parts.
5. Yes they are heavier but my e-folder is 14 kg my eledtric recumbent trike is 19.5 kg all up.
6. I have bnever considered pluging in a lead to be a pain.
9. More dependent on bike design, hub or crank drive, speed up hill van change massively.
10. Try a crank drive, my fully legal Tonaro will wheel stand taking of on steep hills due to gearing, the climbing limit is traction or ability to keep the front wheel on the ground :)


Hi Geebee,

Come on, I needed to find 10... Cut me some slack ;)

Anyway - 4) - By their design, Pedelecs ( or EPACs ) can continue to produce full power - well over 250w - for up to 5 meters after you stop pedaling. Not all of them have this issue, but it is in the standard. Having all that power when you're trying to brake is generally a bad thing. Also, some can take off unexpectedly when attempting to maneuver slowly, due to the PAS thinking that the rider is attempting a standing start when they are not. The result is that the bike can shoot forward under full power.. Both of them are bad... Couple the two together, and add in tight pedestrian traffic and you have an issue. I doubt all Pedelecs have this issue, but it does exist.

Not all of them have this issue, but those that do still comply to EN15194. As for illegal parts, not quite, it's more that if you replace a part, you need to replace it with the original part, or the entire bike ( including all ESAs ) are now out of compliance. Also, WA went and passed a crazy law that limited MAX power on an EN15194 bike to 250w, when that's the continuous power, so all Pedelecs currently have questionable legal status in WA. ( On advice from DoT for that last one ).

Once you know to expect it, it's not so bad, but the problem with an EPAC is that they sense that you want power by a small movement of the pedal - yet a small movement of the pedal doesn't necessarily mean you want power.

There are electric bike specific dangers too - eg: https://www.electricbike.com/dangers/

Generally, as long as the rider is used to the electic, they are pretty safe and most riders know how to be careful - I'm just being super-critical. Or maybe I'm just biased towards throttles... ( Thumb, twist, lever, so many types of throttle... :D )

5) Some people would consider 14kg a tank ;) ( Hey, it's not an advantage is it? )

6) Yeah, I know, most people don't have an issue. I am charger-challenged :oops: . I admit it. But I just hate finding it flat when I want to use it... ( I just realized, I forgot to plug it in ).

9) I'm referring to drag here - not torque at lower speeds. 100w watts will do about 19kph. 200w will do about 24kph. So at 100w, you get around 20km range from a battery like mine. At 200w, I get about 7 to 8. There's not much we can do about that.

10) I'm referring to top speed here, not torque ( btw, you got a very nice bike ! :) I just looked that up ) - I think around 35 would be a reasonable assist speed on the road. Though I can't complain too much as I still can get 200w assistance at 35 kph on my PAPC.

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Re: Why ebikes are good / bad

Postby Aushiker » Wed May 13, 2015 2:49 pm

Lurkin wrote:http://www.reidcycles.com.au/corratec-x-vert-29er.html

http://www.haibike.de/index.php?seite=p ... tion=68117

If you say so...


I asked specifically about the Diamond, which is a non-suspension fork model. I also followed that post with this comment in the post after...

Also any other suggestions on road style e-bikes with non-suspension forks (besides the Specialized Turbo models)?


So if Haibike sell a non-suspension fork model here in Australia please do share the details ....

Andrew
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Re: Why ebikes are good / bad

Postby eldavo » Wed May 13, 2015 3:26 pm

No the Haibike are mountain design, the closest is the one I linked above, their Trekking with lockout 63mm trekking fork. (for $6k versus $3k bear in mind)
As for ones like the Specialized Turbo, BH Emotion have a rear hub Evo Race with lighter rigid frame and carbon fork, 105 RD 10sp cassette, Tiagra FD, 20kg and 12Ah removable battery, $3549 pre-order sale.

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Re: Why ebikes are good / bad

Postby Lurkin » Wed May 13, 2015 9:04 pm

Look a bit harder then.

The urban is a fixed fork... but it's not the touring style you are after.

They do sell some, but they don't have a fixed fork, being their trekking series.

Why are you fixated on what is only offered by Haibike Australia? can import anything you want.

Why do you require a fixed fork anyway?

To answer your other question - the limit can be removed with a software change on the more recent models via USB dongle. btw the 250w and 350w share the same internals - software is the difference.

But it really defeats the purpose of a nice, store bought, legal bike to change it into something illegal? If you have a regular bike in mind for your specific requirements why not retro fit a hub motor or mid drive? Its always going to be cheaper to do this than buy a finished product... then you can also have greater decisions that will affect your experience - battery size particularly....

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Re: Why ebikes are good / bad

Postby Aushiker » Wed May 13, 2015 9:25 pm

eldavo wrote:As for ones like the Specialized Turbo, BH Emotion have a rear hub Evo Race with lighter rigid frame and carbon fork, 105 RD 10sp cassette, Tiagra FD, 20kg and 12Ah removable battery, $3549 pre-order sale.


The BH Emotion looks good but over-riding the 250w limit seems to be more difficult. The advantage with the Corratec is already configured nicely for commuting to probably no further expenditure required to setup. Anyway have decided to give my current setup more of a go and see if I can iron out the little frustrations with it and take it from there.

Andrew
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Re: Why ebikes are good / bad

Postby Comedian » Thu May 14, 2015 2:24 pm

In QLD we're seeing quite a few very high powered e-bikes. Many can effortlessly do 40, with higher speeds available for passing. All without requiring any energy from the rider other than throttle twisting..

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Re: Why ebikes are good / bad

Postby eldavo » Thu May 14, 2015 3:27 pm

Bad: the boxes are bigger.

Image

edit: may be a German thing, I recall a MAXX fat bike review noted it was full size assembled bike, probably just the bars longitudinal like this one.
Last edited by eldavo on Thu May 14, 2015 5:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Why ebikes are good / bad

Postby Aushiker » Thu May 14, 2015 3:36 pm

eldavo wrote:Bad: the boxes are bigger.


Its arrived :)

Andrew
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cj7hawk
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Re: Why ebikes are good / bad

Postby cj7hawk » Thu May 14, 2015 9:51 pm

Aushiker wrote:
eldavo wrote:Bad: the boxes are bigger.


Its arrived :)

Andrew


I wanna see what's in the box.

ob-post - What's bad about electric bicycles - when they run out of power just before a big hill :(

David.

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Re: Why ebikes are good / bad

Postby cj7hawk » Thu May 14, 2015 9:59 pm

Comedian wrote:In QLD we're seeing quite a few very high powered e-bikes. Many can effortlessly do 40, with higher speeds available for passing. All without requiring any energy from the rider other than throttle twisting..


I think we'll start to see a lot of those in Qld and NSW - :(

David.

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Re: Why ebikes are good / bad

Postby Mububban » Mon Jun 15, 2015 11:09 pm

Why are ebikes good = when you **** up your front chain ring less than 1km from leaving work, you can use it to limp home and not need the wife to come and get you.

Luckily an easy fix when I got home. But just one more reason to love the e-assist. I could break a leg and still get myself home if needed :)
When you are driving your car, you are not stuck IN traffic - you ARE the traffic!!!

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Re: Why ebikes are good / bad

Postby Joeblake » Tue Jun 16, 2015 10:41 am

I can relate to that. I broke a rear derailleur on my trike at McCallum park and had to get back to Lesmurdie on a combination of e-motor and pedaling with the chain falling off the rear cluster every time I hit a bump in the road. As I tried to motor/pedal up the final hill on Welshpool road the joining link in the chain came adrift and I had to finish the final 4 km on motor alone. Luckily my solar panels kept enough charge in the batteries to complete the trip. AND also luckily, I had a throttle-only and not a pedelec set up.
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Re: Why ebikes are good / bad

Postby geebee » Tue Jun 16, 2015 12:27 pm

Pedalec would have worked fine once the chain broke, just spin the pedals and off you go :)

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Re: Why ebikes are good / bad

Postby Joeblake » Tue Jun 16, 2015 1:11 pm

Perhaps, perhaps not. I had to cover about 16 km BEFORE the chain broke, and since I could NOT pedal, pedalec would have been useless. :wink:
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Re: Why ebikes are good / bad

Postby Hamster » Sun Jun 21, 2015 8:02 am

Comedian wrote:In QLD we're seeing quite a few very high powered e-bikes. Many can effortlessly do 40, with higher speeds available for passing. All without requiring any energy from the rider other than throttle twisting..


I can only recollect seeing two or three in the past several years. There are of course lots of kits available in eBay with motors of 800 to 1000 watt motors. Indeed one commercial supplier is selling a kit with a 1,500W motor. Legalities aside these have got to dangerous. Bicycle brakes are not designed to bring that sort of weight to a stop in a reasonable distance from 40+kph.

In my opinion any additional cash would be better spent in a bigger battery rather than a more powerful motor.
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Re: Why ebikes are good / bad

Postby cj7hawk » Sun Jun 21, 2015 5:03 pm

Hamster wrote:
Comedian wrote:In QLD we're seeing quite a few very high powered e-bikes. Many can effortlessly do 40, with higher speeds available for passing. All without requiring any energy from the rider other than throttle twisting..


I can only recollect seeing two or three in the past several years. There are of course lots of kits available in eBay with motors of 800 to 1000 watt motors. Indeed one commercial supplier is selling a kit with a 1,500W motor. Legalities aside these have got to dangerous. Bicycle brakes are not designed to bring that sort of weight to a stop in a reasonable distance from 40+kph.

In my opinion any additional cash would be better spent in a bigger battery rather than a more powerful motor.


I've seen about 10 powered bikes over the past two months - Two were legal-appearing petrol bicycles and the rest were all electric. Of the electric, only about two of them appeared legal, and the others were all keeping up with traffic while on a bike path.. ( estimated around 40 ~ 50 kph ) -

There is relatively negligible extra weight on a bicycle with either motor, and even the electrics which are heavier don't add that much. Batteries are the biggest issue where weight is concerned, and typically weight around 20 kg for a decent sized pack that will allow a good commute range of around 30km. Even then, I've seen some cyclists slip far more weight under their lycra so I don't think the weight is the problem - Bicycle brakes - even caliper brakes, are still suitable for such weight when a bicycle is ridden sensibly.

The biggest danger I see from overpowered electrics though is that they tend to overtake people without warning and at very high speeds - and it's just luck that there's no collision. That won't continue for long though.

Regards
David.

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Re: Why ebikes are good / bad

Postby geebee » Sun Jun 21, 2015 5:16 pm

"typically weight around 20 kg"
Only using lead! my 36v 10amp pack weighs around 2.5 kg and would easily do 30 km without pedaling.
Most illegal bikes I have seen are Xmart BSO with barely adequate brakes for pedal only, most petrol conversions I have seen locally sacrifice one of the brakes usually the front one which is insane.

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