Why ebikes are good / bad

opik_bidin
Posts: 116
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2018 5:45 pm

Re: Why ebikes are good / bad

Postby opik_bidin » Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:51 pm

Mugglechops wrote:I just watched an almost 2 hour you tube video of 3 guys riding E-Bikes in NYC. They had a 20mph top speed which pretty matched the speed limit. They were taking the lane when they had no bike lane and were easily keeping with the traffic flow.

Why can't we have faster E-bikes :-( I think a 35km/h limit would almost get me to bite the bullet and buy one. In a front loading cargo version.


Because it is dangerous,

and higher than 25 km/h maybe even higher than 40 km/h (some limit to this if not in the city) will make us not pedalling anymore, which defeats the purpose of a bicycle. and

Just get a motorcycle then if you don't want to pedal.

There is also other aspects why speed must be limited, like tunnel vision and social interaction

eldavo
Posts: 1699
Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2009 12:21 am
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Contact:

Re: Why ebikes are good / bad

Postby eldavo » Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:38 pm

Mugglechops wrote:...would almost get me to bite the bullet and buy one. In a front loading cargo version.

Here you go, just remember its the aeros of nothing that are really something above 25kph, if the timing is right to draft a roadie or tri-rider.

Business on Monday.


Party on Sunday.

Jmuzz
Posts: 567
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:42 pm

Re: Why ebikes are good / bad

Postby Jmuzz » Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:05 pm

Mugglechops wrote:Why can't we have faster E-bikes :-( I think a 35km/h limit would almost get me to bite the bullet and buy one. In a front loading cargo version.


You can, but it has to be registered as a motorcycle/scooter.

It's really stretching things to start claiming that adding pedals to a 50cc scooter equivilant electric bike should exempt them from established rego and licensing requirements.

Which is not a hard standard to meet really, motorbikes aren't subject to all the crash test stuff which cars are and being electric none of the emmisions tests apply.
Really just about proper lights and blinkers, probably need two 180mm disc on front.

Adding a proper moped class would be best because that could relax some of the light brightness requirements and allow it with just a minimal theory test license available from 14yo. Cap at 60kph and allow bicycle helmets. Subject to bicycle road rules but ban from cycleway.

User avatar
RonK
Posts: 10377
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2009 2:08 pm
Location: If you need to know, ask me
Contact:

Re: Why ebikes are good / bad

Postby RonK » Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:19 pm

Mugglechops wrote:Why can't we have faster E-bikes :-( I think a 35km/h limit would almost get me to bite the bullet and buy one. In a front loading cargo version.

You can - all it takes is simple plug-in speed sensor tuning device. Halves the speed signal - doubles the assisted speed.
Ebike Tuning
Cycle touring blog and tour journals: whispering wheels...

User avatar
Mugglechops
Posts: 3012
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 6:51 pm
Location: Shoalhaven

Re: Why ebikes are good / bad

Postby Mugglechops » Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:55 pm

Wow, I never knew you could do that to them. I have had a few rides of my mates Big Fat Dummy and I think that would be a prime candidate for some electric boosting. It was ok half loaded and you would surely get used to it, but it was still hard work.

Image
Image

Joeblake
Posts: 14241
Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2008 10:04 pm
Location: Lesmurdie WA

Re: Why ebikes are good / bad

Postby Joeblake » Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:03 pm

Why settle for only one front wheel when you can have two?


https://newatlas.com/rungu-electric-jug ... mdv/55294/
Image
To acquire immunity to eloquence is of the utmost importance to the citizens of a democracy
Bertrand Russell

eldavo
Posts: 1699
Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2009 12:21 am
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Contact:

Re: Why ebikes are good / bad

Postby eldavo » Thu Jul 19, 2018 3:08 pm

Mugglechops wrote:Wow, I never knew you could do that to them.

Shhh... the first rule of Fight Club...

The BFD is a prime candidate for weight loss also in the wheelset, if speed/distance covered was a target improvement. Skinny carbon/alloy up to 29x3 tubeless that can take down to 700c commuter tyres if you were using the long wheelbase more than the off-road ability, e.g. the CyclingAbout.com guy Ali on tour at the moment.

As the saying goes it never gets easier, the speed just changes, with some double inversions for ebikes with battery range limit and speed cutoff. Over distance and 25kph you're burning battery into aero drag with marginal average trip speed/time gain in most environments. Short distance you can be as efficient as an old V12 Jag but the absolute time difference is still then marginal, making the illegal and standing out aspects stronger arguments.

Joeblake
Posts: 14241
Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2008 10:04 pm
Location: Lesmurdie WA

Re: Why ebikes are good / bad

Postby Joeblake » Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:33 am

"Study claims e-bikes get you just as fit as non-electrics"

https://newatlas.com/ebike-fitness-study/55662/
To acquire immunity to eloquence is of the utmost importance to the citizens of a democracy
Bertrand Russell

eldavo
Posts: 1699
Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2009 12:21 am
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Contact:

Re: Why ebikes are good / bad

Postby eldavo » Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:23 pm

I haven't read that study, but some numbers from recent commute hanging behind 80-percentile road/flatbar commuters on my current winter bike, minivelo cargo pedelec.

5.95Wh/km. 42km 250Wh consumed, 150Wh remaining of 400Wh,


zebee
Posts: 447
Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2013 8:37 am

Re: Why ebikes are good / bad

Postby zebee » Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:41 pm

I am working the heart on the e-trike but not the legs. I notice it when I hop on the 2 wheel recumbent. More leg work means more cardiovascular too.

I expect someone who has poor fitness will do better on an ebike as they can do more with less. Which is very motivating. But there's a level you get to and getting past that is hard.

I have tried turning it off or right down, and I definitely notice the difference!

eldavo
Posts: 1699
Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2009 12:21 am
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Contact:

Re: Why ebikes are good / bad

Postby eldavo » Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:01 am

I guess the leg power load to cardio spin depends on gearing, ride style, proportion of human input power to assisted power and how that ramps up, ergonomics and body willing and able to shift less and power more, or not. Hills too? The spectrum is as vast as shop gopher to ultra endurance. Different strokes for different folks, and the gut bacteria science is showing apples aren't always apples when comparing, nor is KFC always KFC when quoting WA's Ryan Bailey from Aus Olympic track cycling team.

I'm using minimal power for natural pedal feeling and long range effectively for option of backup in case of extreme weather, illness or injury, or more torque to be able to cruise if needed when dressed up and towing kids in trailer. By comparison a guy not pedalling up a long steep hill was hard work to hang with, while I tried using max turbo assist and drafting head down powering my best, thinking maybe a 750-1000W hub motor.

User avatar
RonK
Posts: 10377
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2009 2:08 pm
Location: If you need to know, ask me
Contact:

Re: Why ebikes are good / bad

Postby RonK » Fri Aug 03, 2018 8:42 am

I had my first e-mtb ride last weekend - over 40km of fire trail and single track. My average heart rate was 142 bpm, decidedly higher than my usual heart rate average of around 130 bpm riding around the city.
Cycle touring blog and tour journals: whispering wheels...

User avatar
Mububban
Posts: 1594
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:19 pm

Re: Why ebikes are good / bad

Postby Mububban » Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:31 am

RonK wrote:I had my first e-mtb ride last weekend - over 40km of fire trail and single track. My average heart rate was 142 bpm, decidedly higher than my usual heart rate average of around 130 bpm riding around the city.


How did you find the extra weight of the ebike handled?
When you are driving your car, you are not stuck IN traffic - you ARE the traffic!!!

mtb1011
Posts: 80
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2014 4:19 pm

Re: Why ebikes are good / bad

Postby mtb1011 » Sat Aug 04, 2018 9:08 am

RonK wrote:I had my first e-mtb ride last weekend - over 40km of fire trail and single track. My average heart rate was 142 bpm, decidedly higher than my usual heart rate average of around 130 bpm riding around the city.
now try riding with no motor and see how you go, please report back avg heart rate. :lol:

User avatar
RonK
Posts: 10377
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2009 2:08 pm
Location: If you need to know, ask me
Contact:

Re: Why ebikes are good / bad

Postby RonK » Sat Aug 04, 2018 9:37 am

Mububban wrote:
RonK wrote:I had my first e-mtb ride last weekend - over 40km of fire trail and single track. My average heart rate was 142 bpm, decidedly higher than my usual heart rate average of around 130 bpm riding around the city.


How did you find the extra weight of the ebike handled?

I can't make a direct comparison, but on the bike I didn't notice the weight at all. It seemed very nimble on the tight, twisting, undulating single track I rode. I'll definitely be exploring those trails more.
The weight was very noticeable on my dodgy knees when I had to lift the bike over motorbike log barriers, and when I had to carry it across a log bridge.
Cycle touring blog and tour journals: whispering wheels...

User avatar
RonK
Posts: 10377
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2009 2:08 pm
Location: If you need to know, ask me
Contact:

Re: Why ebikes are good / bad

Postby RonK » Sat Aug 04, 2018 9:50 am

mtb1011 wrote:
RonK wrote:I had my first e-mtb ride last weekend - over 40km of fire trail and single track. My average heart rate was 142 bpm, decidedly higher than my usual heart rate average of around 130 bpm riding around the city.
now try riding with no motor and see how you go, please report back avg heart rate. :lol:

Hehe - I don't think I'll bother.
But that's the point most people miss. The pedal assistance lets you cover more distance in less time, and perhaps tackle more difficult terrain, but that does not mean it's easy.
Mmmmmm - somebody sent me a video of the Alpine Epic at Mt Buller, and as it happens I'll probably be heading to Victoria in January.
Cycle touring blog and tour journals: whispering wheels...

User avatar
Mububban
Posts: 1594
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:19 pm

Re: Why ebikes are good / bad

Postby Mububban » Sat Aug 04, 2018 9:57 pm

RonK wrote:But that's the point most people miss. The pedal assistance lets you cover more distance in less time, and perhaps tackle more difficult terrain, but that does not mean it's easy.


I'm a big fan of ebikes. It helped me get back on the bike even though I wasn't old or infirm, just lacking motivation and confidence. Now I'm loving my road bike and riding proper MTB trails, and the e-kit sits unused, but it did its job of getting me back on the bike.
And yes, riding an ebike doesn't kill your legs, but there's no escaping the load on your heart and lungs if you're aiming to do anything more than tootle along to the shops at pedestrian pace. When I was commuting, I'd still try and go as fast as possible rather than go slow and easy. So I'd still turn up to work sweaty and breathing hard with an elevated HR.

When I get old or infirm, I hope an ebike will keep me riding for as long as possible :)
When you are driving your car, you are not stuck IN traffic - you ARE the traffic!!!

zebee
Posts: 447
Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2013 8:37 am

Re: Why ebikes are good / bad

Postby zebee » Sun Aug 05, 2018 6:18 pm

I am not working as hard on the e-trike as on the 2 wheeler but I am working. What the assistance does for me is make the longer trips and the heavy haulage a lot easier.

It makes the trike a bit more useful too as I don't mind taking longer routes that keep me out of traffic. On the 2 wheelers I will mix it with traffic even uphill if the route is shorter on the trike I will go out of my way to be on the quieter roads. I can mix with traffic I just feel that it's a bit ruder on the wider vehicle as there are fewer passing opportunities. If I am in traffic on the trike I will push harder to keep up if I have to. So on the way home from Burwood up the hilly bits to the railway line I will be in top level assist and pushing as hard as I can to keep up with the cars. I can be lazier on the quiet roads!

User avatar
Mububban
Posts: 1594
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:19 pm

Re: Why ebikes are good / bad

Postby Mububban » Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:19 pm

Yesterday at the main trail hub I saw a guy in his 50s with a full sus ebike, riding with a group in their 30s on normal full sus bikes. Probably safe to assume that his ebike helped him keep up with the younger riders and still have a blast enjoying some perfect weather.
When you are driving your car, you are not stuck IN traffic - you ARE the traffic!!!

User avatar
RonK
Posts: 10377
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2009 2:08 pm
Location: If you need to know, ask me
Contact:

Re: Why ebikes are good / bad

Postby RonK » Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:05 pm

Mububban wrote:Yesterday at the main trail hub I saw a guy in his 50s with a full sus ebike, riding with a group in their 30s on normal full sus bikes. Probably safe to assume that his ebike helped him keep up with the younger riders and still have a blast enjoying some perfect weather.

Yesterday I rode some of the MTB trails at Mt Coot-Tha. Not knowing my way around I took the most obvious route up a firetrail. I was soon regretting my choice, as it was fearfully steep. Never mind - switching the assist level to boost, and struggling to find the balance point between traction and steering I made it to the top, only to find other riders emerging from a side track which is apparently the normal, easier route up. On the descending (blue) trail I got an instant lesson about the capabilities of a modern mtb, scaring the wits out of myself in the process. Then back up again for another go, this time on the recommended climbing trail and it was a cruise, no boost necessary.
Needless to say it was a lot of fun.
Cycle touring blog and tour journals: whispering wheels...

Scintilla
Posts: 301
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:36 pm

Re: Why ebikes are good / bad

Postby Scintilla » Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:30 pm

Saw a *really nice* e-bike at a presentation by Dolomiti at our club meeting. Dual-battery, batteries locked into the frame-tubes, fully customised features from Reise & Muller. Not cheap at about $7,600 but this sort of bike works very well as a car-replacement and the savings in fuel, rego, insurance and service costs will see it paying for itself in a matter of two-three years.
http://dolomitielectricbikes.com.au/pro ... percharger

Image

eldavo
Posts: 1699
Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2009 12:21 am
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Contact:

Re: Why ebikes are good / bad

Postby eldavo » Fri Aug 31, 2018 2:05 pm

Need a secure end of trip for stuff like that. R&M definitely the beautiful big $$$ stuff frequently popping in my wish list.
I'm regularly seeing ebikes as reported stolen from the shops, or from the shops themselves.

Popped back to share this pretty good article Bicycles Online have created, as an alternative to being a sale event.
https://mailchi.mp/bicyclesonline/just- ... you-should

ebikerdiary
Posts: 8
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2018 8:38 am

Re: Why ebikes are good / bad

Postby ebikerdiary » Wed Sep 26, 2018 5:25 pm

Its odd to see a debating topic on whether a piece of technology is innately "good or bad". The answer of course is neither. Whether its good or bad depends on how its used. I'm 68, retired, fit and active. I've ridden all my life, always flat bars and over the last decade or two, not on roads. I did the Otago Rail Trail in NZ recently and decided not to work my way around the 152km trail but hire an ebike. I was hooked immediately. I now have a top-end Merida eOne Sixty 800 full suspension and ride everywhere. I log my routes on ebikerdiary.com so that other seniors can share my rides. In summary, my experience with ebikes has changed my life. I've ridden about 5,000 this year and have a long bucket list of long tours. So to me, ebikes are "good".

eldavo
Posts: 1699
Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2009 12:21 am
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Contact:

Re: Why ebikes are good / bad

Postby eldavo » Wed Sep 26, 2018 5:51 pm

AUbicycles wrote:Electric bicycles is a controversial topic for some cyclists ... but the ebike market is growing internationally.

This is the first post.. and a sticky and is the section for dialogue for discussion the Pros and Cons.

Be friendly, be open and be positive.


Agreed EBD, as per the original post above it was a place to focus the prejudices (like the mandatory helmet laws thread) and discussion.

I think it was Dunbar's number I read about recently that summarises the circles and physical limits of human relationships and concern, so if people aren't a critical mass populating those relationships, likely have a negative change reaction. Easier to say "no" than to think of all the scenarios for how your interests may be affected, than to say "yes". e.g. ask your neighbour forgiveness rather than permission.

User avatar
AUbicycles
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 13319
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:14 am
Location: Sydney & Frankfurt
Contact:

Re: Why ebikes are good / bad

Postby AUbicycles » Thu Sep 27, 2018 12:57 am

The original post was in 2010, eight years ago and ebikes still get resistance in various ways so the post has been a way to get these on the table for polite discussion. Of course, everyone is entitled to an opinion and as time and technology develops the benefits and disadvantages become more apparent.

As a side note, I support ebikes and have published a lot of content aimed at informing readers so am a supporter but personally don't have a necessity to own an e-bike. I have attended training workshops, ridden a heap of different systems and even been to a factory where motors are manufactured. I can identify a few problem areas with ebike but also a lot of opportunities - particularly for seniors and less abled people where ebikes present greater access and independence.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users