Legal issues - what are the DEFINITIVE laws

Positive discussion on ebikes and pedal assist bicycles

Legal issues - what are the DEFINITIVE laws

Postby Comedian » Wed Jun 06, 2012 3:22 pm

Yep. They just said NO to electric motorbikes. :)
Once you can climb hills on a bike it's all downhill. :mrgreen:

Hopefully I'll know what that's like..... one day. :shock: :lol:

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by BNA » Wed Jun 06, 2012 3:26 pm

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Re: Legal issues - what are the DEFINITIVE laws

Postby Joeblake » Wed Jun 06, 2012 3:26 pm

@alan101

Yes, we've read that already. (See above) Why a duplicate posting?

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Middle path legislation

Postby alan101 » Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:26 pm

I'm impressed with the federal ebike legislation (national vehicle safety standards) allowing both 200w throttle ebikes with no speed restriction and 250w/25kmh pedalecs. We haven't gone backwards with speed restricting 200w rigs, and the Australian market can now accept European and Japanese 250w pedalecs. The pedalecs have evolved into rather sophisticated rigs, eg drive through the cranks and use gearing. It's going to be interesting to see the market choices for ebikes open up now.

My Bafang 200w motor wheel is faster than my Bafang 250w wheel (25kmh limited design, without having any pedalec 25kmh-cutout paraphernalia fitted). The motor is wound (copper wire) with a 25kmh cutout speed in mind. The 250w wheel hangs unloved on the shed wall. I also prefer a throttle, as it gives a quick start when sprinting across 3-4 lane major roads when double semi's are incoming. A 200w motor could offer a range advantage over a 250w motor, for a given battery capacity.

Two old ebikers I know aren't fussed about speed, and the extra 50w may help them with hill climbs carrying the groceries.

Without the 25kmh pedalec controller, we still have scope for innovation (more speed) with lighter ebikes and drive through the gears systems.

This implied depth to the legislation is surprising and welcome (if not used as an obstacle): 'construction standards for batteries, cables and connections as well as other requirements such as braking performance and the strength of frames'.

It's a very conservative approach to ebikes (250w speed limited), but it will open the Australian market to international ebikes. It's going to be interesting ebike time ahead!! We still have to check with our states' dept of Transport to see if local road rules legislation reflects the new federal legislation. I just wrote to the Vic DoT to ask. Hope the states don't take another 3 years?!
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Re: Legal issues - what are the DEFINITIVE laws

Postby ekib » Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:04 pm

Any ideas when each of the states and territories will introduce legislation to enable these new federal government rules?

For example, in Queensland, I understand that it would still be illegal for me to ride a 250W ebike on the road.

Any comments or ideas?

Ekib



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Re: Legal issues - what are the DEFINITIVE laws

Postby Roinik » Wed Oct 17, 2012 9:07 pm

What a relief! I can still put a 200W assist motor with 500Ah or 1000Ah Li-ion battery pack in a velomobile and crack that 65 km/h target on the flat with my measily 100W input.

DF riders watch out!

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Re: Legal issues - what are the DEFINITIVE laws

Postby OldNick » Sat Nov 03, 2012 3:32 pm

I see there is already a large legal thread. Sorry for starting another.

Complete noob to eBikes. Having arranged my kit I now start to read all this stuff!

I have a question. With a Direct Drive motor (which I have) there is serious drag at any speed when power is withdrawn. If the motor's assist is supposed to stop at 25KPH, what is expected to happen then. We have to fight against the motor's drag as well as everything else, to go any faster? Or is overcoming the magnetic drag not considered assisting?

And another. It was mentioned here that power must not exceed 200/250W, but what defines power and how do you measure it? I have a _motor_ that can do 1000W, but I am going to limit it to 200W. So it's not capable of exceeding 200W. But ...?

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Re: Legal issues.... warning. LONG RANT

Postby OldNick » Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:43 pm

I have read a lot but not all of this thread. So I am not sure if this has been said.

My source is http://www.vae-enov.com/fiches_2010/norme_en_15194.pdf

If you read the EN15194 standard that I believe we are going to be based on, then power, continuous, peak, measured at the wheel or motor shaft or whatever, is the start of your worries.

In fact I reckon this has become easier under the new rules. The power measurement is taken either at the motor shaft (with allowances for transmission losses) or at the wheel, with no allowance. Under the 200W law, it says (at least when actually laid out in Victoria, where they are trying to care about bikes) "motor(s) capable of an _ungoverned_ 200W total". So no matter what switcheroos you pull with control, if you MOTOR is more than 200W you are stuffed.

There are rules about batteries, frames, time between stopping pedalling and the motor stopping, _needing and onboard charger that cannot be removed from the bike_....that has to conform to some other En standards, max assist speed, max speed without assist.....etc

The battery test consists of _shorting the battery while fully charged_ (and no time limit is given here, which I think is really bad, given the stringency of this stuff) , and the motor is then shorted out with all controls on full (I assume you have to pedal like mad, as there is no throttle :D ). Then they lock up the mechanicals, and give it full power until "the battery is fully discharged". This must not result in any flames or discharge of noxious substance. So basically they _could_ wreck the battery, or the motor, or both. It's NEARLY "If she can swim she's a witch"

I realise this is probably meant for some sort of compliance by manufactured bikes. But it appears that it could be applied to a one-off, probably destroying the bike in some way.

Then they have a most curious one. "The battery is charged for double the recommended charging period or for 24 hours depending upon which is the longest period. " There is no mention of with what charger, what rate of charge. This rule sounds like BS. Again. not fair given the stringency of the overall setup.

However. Again I say...if any lone wolf is hoping to meet the rules under the new regime, I wish you luck. For me if I am doing a DIY, the best I could hope for was to behave well and not get tested. My fear is that these new rules could either result in the authorities just saying forget it, or, that there will be some prat that decides this is their moment in the limelight and all bikes will get called in for a test.

Christ. It might be easier to just get the thing licenced as a motorbike and go for it! :D
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Re: Legal issues.... warning. LONG RANT

Postby Joeblake » Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:55 pm

OldNick wrote:
The battery test consists of _shorting the battery while fully charged_ (and no time limit is given here, which I think is really bad, given the stringency of this stuff) , and the motor is then shorted out with all controls on full (I assume you have to pedal like mad, as there is no throttle :D ). Then they lock up the mechanicals, and give it full power until "the battery is fully discharged". This must not result in any flames or discharge of noxious substance. So basically they _could_ wreck the battery, or the motor, or both. It's NEARLY "If she can swim she's a witch"

I realise this is probably meant for some sort of compliance by manufactured bikes. But it appears that it could be applied to a one-off, probably destroying the bike in some way.



Just take a moment to reflect on how many Volvos paid the ultimate price by being mercilessly crushed against unyielding concrete walls to give us safer cars. :lol: :lol:

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Re: Legal issues - what are the DEFINITIVE laws

Postby OldNick » Wed Nov 07, 2012 9:08 pm

Yeah...and look at the price of Volvos! :D I take you point and this is what scares me.

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Re: Legal issues - what are the DEFINITIVE laws

Postby OldNick » Wed Nov 07, 2012 9:23 pm

BTW. Re your sig: Berty had it so right and I wish his sentiments luck!
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Re: Legal issues - what are the DEFINITIVE laws

Postby OldNick » Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:42 pm

But seriously. This looks like another insurance and industry (mostly insurance...that's where the power lies) grab for complexity in the name of safety. It leads to a complete lack of freedom for even a small company to provide the goods, so the big guys spend a few hunnerthou and produce a legal product. And then bikes will still get clobbered by 2 tonnes of steel clad idiot.
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Re: Legal issues - what are the DEFINITIVE laws

Postby OldNick » Fri Nov 09, 2012 9:06 pm

Just sitting here gnawing my elbows and mumbling.

My big concern was that part of the rules stated that the electrical connectors must have no signs of corrosion or surface rust. This seems to imply that these checks could be carried out on bikes in use.

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Re: Legal issues - what are the DEFINITIVE laws

Postby Joeblake » Fri Nov 09, 2012 9:48 pm

It's just basic electronics common sense. Corrosion of various types on connectors can cause high resistance loads which at best can waste power, or even stop the motor operating, and at worst cause a fire. I've found using an incorrect meter caused a great deal of trouble on one of my solar panel setups (not bike related). I touched a wire coming from my ammeter and found it was almost too hot for comfort. I measured it and found it was running at 60 degrees C. I'd forgotten to upgrade my meter when I'd added more panels and the amperage was almost too high for the meter to read. (I'd previously burned a meter out when I was starting construction.) When I fitted a shunted meter the temperature immediately dropped to ambient and I had an increase of roughly 20% of power going into the batteries. So it's good practice to keep all your connections clean and shiny (and tight). 8)

Personally, while I try and keep my own connections clean as best I can, when I see corrosion I always know who to blame ... me.

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Re: Legal issues - what are the DEFINITIVE laws

Postby OldNick » Fri Nov 09, 2012 10:04 pm

You maybe need to read my post a couple back about the full implications of the EU bike rules that we are adopting (this is the legal issues thread :D). They require such tests as shorting the battery, mechanically locking the bike and giving it full power.. The corrosion issue means this rule can be applied to your bike, any time. I am assuming that a brand new bike, offered by any savvy manufacturer for EU testing, will not have corrosion.

So I know that it's common sense to prevent corrosion, but my point is, the fact that they mention it means they are allowing for old bikes to be tested as described.....yours and mine, with the really potentially destructive tests they ask for.

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Re: Legal issues - what are the DEFINITIVE laws

Postby Joeblake » Sat Nov 10, 2012 10:08 am

OldNick wrote:The corrosion issue means this rule can be applied to your bike, any time. I am assuming that a brand new bike, offered by any savvy manufacturer for EU testing, will not have corrosion.




As I've said previously, this is about giving manufacturers guidelines to conform with so that the equivalent of vehicle compliance plates can be issued to allow motors/e-bikes to be imported into this country ... or not. I find it unlikely that any reputable manufacturer would avoid the testing compliance. If you want to go and buy a "cheap" item and it burns out after a week, then you can approach the relevant authorities with a complaint and they should take the necessary action. If the device has not met compliance standards, then that will give them the necessary force to act.

As for these guidelines being "applied to your bike, any time" it's not that simple. I haven't read the entire standard, and don't intend to unless I have to, but in skimming through I found the following:

a) The test may be performed either on a test track, a test bench or on a stand which keeps the motor driven
wheel free of the ground.
b) The test track shall be according to EN 14764:2005, Clause 4.6.8.5.1.1.
c) The time-measuring device shall have an accuracy of ± 2%.
d) The ambient temperature shall be between 5 °C and 35 °C.
e) Maximum wind speed shall not exceed 3 m/s.
f) The battery shall be fully charged according to the manufacturer's instructions.


So in the same way in a case involving a photographic speed measuring device it's almost inevitable that the person who is presenting the evidence in court be shown to be qualified to operate the device and operated it in accordance with the legal requirements etc at the time of the alleged offence,

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/wa ... ding-fine/

so any test performed by police on an e-bike MUST be performed in the way which meets the legal requirements otherwise the case would fall flat on its face.

Finally, the law which will be applied is the law of the state you are in, so I'd not worry too much about the European standard. That would be several steps removed from being tested on the road. These sorts of standards are two-edged things, and are usually employed in ways which protect your rights as a consumer, not just as playthings for law enforcement agencies.

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Re: Legal issues - what are the DEFINITIVE laws

Postby ChrisRider » Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:50 am

As of right now, Victoria is the only state that have changed their Road Laws, the other states are still using the old system of 200W.
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Re: Legal issues - what are the DEFINITIVE laws

Postby OldNick » Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:42 pm

Vic seems to be way forward of other states in all things bicycle as far as I can see. WA bleats about it, but there is no real coordination about the networks etc.
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Re: Legal issues - what are the DEFINITIVE laws

Postby ekib » Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:58 pm

Sorry to contradict, but Qld also has passed legislation about new 250 w ebikes,
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Re: Legal issues - what are the DEFINITIVE laws

Postby ChrisRider » Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:04 am

Yes it has also been officially confirmed that Queensland has passed the law for the state to add the 250W EU standards. We get the official updates sent to us directly from the governing bodies. So if anyone needs the up to date info let us know.
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Re: Legal issues - what are the DEFINITIVE laws

Postby naruto83 » Thu Feb 28, 2013 8:42 pm

I contacted the SA people:

Unfortunately there has been no word as to when the legislation for Pedelecs in SA will be made.
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Re: Legal issues - what are the DEFINITIVE laws

Postby ozebikes » Sun Mar 10, 2013 5:36 pm

I have read through quite a bit of the new EU legislation in order to understand what is needed for a 250w conversion kit. I have PAS and the speed limiters on hand, the speed limiters are all wheel diameter settable, so whats to stop someone "mucking up" the setting and getting 35-40kmh out of their limiter...

As for shorting the battery...not something I would ever expect any sane person to do! Thats insane. I have been working with Lithium cells for 7 years now, and have dealt with most forms of Lithium topology, shorting any lithium battery out is not a good idea, I wonder who came up with this test...
Charging twice the time, c'mon who wrote this stuff? Australian ACMA rules mean any charger imported here has to abide by c-tick to start with, wonder how many ebay ones are compliant, and how many who have stuck a sticker on actually hold a compliance folder with the relevant test data.

Another funny thing is, there are a lot of people running E bikes well over 200w, running on Lithium polymer packs, many being purchased from the cheap overseas hobby shops. Short one of these out and watch out!! :oops: :twisted:
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