What is the point of the motor assistance?

Positive discussion on ebikes and pedal assist bicycles

Re: What is the point of the motor assistance?

Postby KenGS » Fri Aug 26, 2011 1:13 pm

Hangdog98 wrote:On the weekend my mate and I went out for an 80km spin on our leg-powered bikes and on the flats we cruised for ages at 50kph with the slight down hill sections allowing 65kph. We got caught and passed by other riders throughout the journey who were faster. Nobody that I saw had an electric motor. We didn't zoom past anyone doing 25kph. Nobody was killed by me or any other speedy cyclists. What is this obsession with restricting the speed of other cyclists?

WOW!! :shock: :shock: :shock: I make that about 600 Watts+ sustained. Were you riding in the Vuelta? If not, get yourself signed up to a pro team and you can ride as fast as you like.
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Re: What is the point of the motor assistance?

Postby Joeblake » Fri Aug 26, 2011 1:24 pm

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Fabulara had better watch out. :wink:

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Re: What is the point of the motor assistance?

Postby KenGS » Fri Aug 26, 2011 6:09 pm

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Re: What is the point of the motor assistance?

Postby Joeblake » Fri Aug 26, 2011 6:40 pm

But wasn't he using "enhanced" batteries? :lol:


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Re: What is the point of the motor assistance?

Postby Hangdog98 » Sat Aug 27, 2011 11:57 am

KenGS wrote:
Hangdog98 wrote:On the weekend my mate and I went out for an 80km spin on our leg-powered bikes and on the flats we cruised for ages at 50kph with the slight down hill sections allowing 65kph. We got caught and passed by other riders throughout the journey who were faster. Nobody that I saw had an electric motor. We didn't zoom past anyone doing 25kph. Nobody was killed by me or any other speedy cyclists. What is this obsession with restricting the speed of other cyclists?

WOW!! :shock: :shock: :shock: I make that about 600 Watts+ sustained. Were you riding in the Vuelta? If not, get yourself signed up to a pro team and you can ride as fast as you like.


A small bunch of weekend cyclists can easily maintain a high average speed on the flats by working together (you may have seen this on the TV) and no, you don't need anything like 600W to do it, so back to math club for you. Of course this is just another example of people being obsessed with Wattage and power without really having a clue. Hey, we even got swallowed up by the colluzzi bunch and spat out the back, so I'm not anywhere near elite much less pro-tour.

Joe, I don't think we're in any danger of being swamped on the cycle ways in NSW. The only danger is having the funding withdrawn due to lack of use and we'll be left with 250km of unconnected strips of cycleway that will eventually become a place for residents to store their wheelie bins.

In Amsterdam, where everybody makes the comparisons about a cycle friendly city, they even have petrol powered micro-cars driving along the cycleways. There are no problems there and I think we're about 200 years from reaching an Amsterdam level of cycleway saturation. Interestingly KenGS, they don't wear helmets or have registration either.

What is it with you vest wearing, pannier stuffing, cable-ties-on-the-helmet, mudguard-using elitists and your obsession with regulating things that run successfully all over the world without your bloody obsession with making new and pointless rules?

Just get out and ride and get some therapy for your Asperger's.
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Re: What is the point of the motor assistance?

Postby Joeblake » Sat Aug 27, 2011 12:20 pm

Hangdog98 wrote:
Joe, I don't think we're in any danger of being swamped on the cycle ways in NSW. The only danger is having the funding withdrawn due to lack of use and we'll be left with 250km of unconnected strips of cycleway that will eventually become a place for residents to store their wheelie bins.


Exactly. It's pointless pushing for increased power and speed limits for e-bikes. Put pressure onto the decision makers to improve the cycleways rather than wasting time trying to get more power, using the argument that this will get more people riding.

That particular ball is in YOUR court. Pick it up and play it.

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Re: What is the point of the motor assistance?

Postby Comedian » Sat Aug 27, 2011 12:45 pm

Hangdog98 wrote:[
What is it with you vest wearing, pannier stuffing, cable-ties-on-the-helmet, mudguard-using elitists and your obsession with regulating things that run successfully all over the world without your bloody obsession with making new and pointless rules?

Just get out and ride and get some therapy for your Asperger's.


Ummm... you know that the premise of this thread is that Australia is about to adopt the European e-bike standard (250w, speed limited, pedelec only) and people here are bitching because it will make their electric motorbikes illegal?

Personally I think what everyone else does (euro standard) would be just fine in Aus and we can concentrate on building our networks. If people want faster buy and electric scooter. :)
Once you can climb hills on a bike it's all downhill. :mrgreen:

Hopefully I'll know what that's like..... one day. :shock: :lol:

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Re: What is the point of the motor assistance?

Postby Comedian » Sat Aug 27, 2011 12:47 pm

And on that note... you all might like this thread. Another example of e-bikers doing untold damage to the environment because they are too lazy to pedal and hiding behind their green anorak! :mrgreen:
Once you can climb hills on a bike it's all downhill. :mrgreen:

Hopefully I'll know what that's like..... one day. :shock: :lol:

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Re: What is the point of the motor assistance?

Postby Hangdog98 » Sat Aug 27, 2011 1:12 pm

"the premise of this thread is that Australia is about to adopt the European e-bike standard"
After reading the discussion topic "What is the point of motor assistance" I would have guessed that the premise was "What is the point of motor assistance" and have been arguing that the point of motor assistance is to get more bums on bikes by easing the transition from motor vehicle to pedal bicycle. The wall being built to prevent that transition is over-regulation and that's what is being discussed here.

Joe, the pressure in the Eastern states to increase funding and kilometres of cycleways is and has been a hard fought battle by countless entities including myself, yet the most powerful lobbies are publicly proclaiming to "tear up the bike paths" when they get elected. The reason they have traction on this issue is because they are able to show that they're a waste of money because not enough people are using them... and the voters are buying it. The real and immediate issue is to get more bums on bikes on the cycleways. The problem is the endless arguing about Wattage and pedal sensors and penalties and useless bumph that has kept this issue pending for half a decade. You're all fiddling while the cycle revolution burns.

For every volunteer bureaucrat and wannabe highway patrolman that tries to help by creating more and more rules, we lose valuable days, months and years. We should be selling every imaginable e-bike known to man and getting people in the congested cities out of their cars and onto the cycleways on two wheels (three wheels if they're disabled).
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Re: What is the point of the motor assistance?

Postby Comedian » Sat Aug 27, 2011 1:22 pm

Hangdog98 wrote:"the premise of this thread is that Australia is about to adopt the European e-bike standard"
After reading the discussion topic "What is the point of motor assistance" I would have guessed that the premise was "What is the point of motor assistance" and have been arguing that the point of motor assistance is to get more bums on bikes by easing the transition from motor vehicle to pedal bicycle. The wall being built to prevent that transition is over-regulation and that's what is being discussed here.


Yes - I agree this thread should be about getting bums onto ebikes but instead it's just a few people complaining that the government won't let them ride their electric motorbike on bike paths (by limiting speed, output, and removing throttle control).
Once you can climb hills on a bike it's all downhill. :mrgreen:

Hopefully I'll know what that's like..... one day. :shock: :lol:

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Re: What is the point of the motor assistance?

Postby Joeblake » Sat Aug 27, 2011 1:28 pm

Hangdog98 wrote: The problem is the endless arguing about Wattage and pedal sensors and penalties and useless bumph that has kept this issue pending for half a decade. You're all fiddling while the cycle revolution burns.

For every volunteer bureaucrat and wannabe highway patrolman that tries to help by creating more and more rules, we lose valuable days, months and years. We should be selling every imaginable e-bike known to man and getting people in the congested cities out of their cars and onto the cycleways on two wheels (three wheels if they're disabled).


No, I've been e-triking for over 6 years, and just showing people why 250 watts is completely adequate.

What's disabled got to do with anything? I took my first spin on a 'bent trike in 1979, and finally bought my own in 1990. It was nothing to do with being disabled. It's fun, it's fast and it's far more efficient than the diamond frame wedgie machines. Being disabled (in the last 5 years) has shown me yet another plus for the 'bent trike.

I only know about the fights you claim you've had to improve matters in this regard from what I read on these threads, and if what I read here is any indication of what the arguments being put forward are, then sadly, I'm not at all surprised that no headway is being made. The "argument" put forward is based almost purely on emotion with no pretence of logic.

If I was to do a report card on what I read here, I'd say "Needs to try much harder".


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Re: What is the point of the motor assistance?

Postby KenGS » Sat Aug 27, 2011 2:00 pm

Hangdog98 wrote:
KenGS wrote:
Hangdog98 wrote:On the weekend my mate and I went out for an 80km spin on our leg-powered bikes and on the flats we cruised for ages at 50kph with the slight down hill sections allowing 65kph. We got caught and passed by other riders throughout the journey who were faster. Nobody that I saw had an electric motor. We didn't zoom past anyone doing 25kph. Nobody was killed by me or any other speedy cyclists. What is this obsession with restricting the speed of other cyclists?

WOW!! :shock: :shock: :shock: I make that about 600 Watts+ sustained. Were you riding in the Vuelta? If not, get yourself signed up to a pro team and you can ride as fast as you like.


A small bunch of weekend cyclists can easily maintain a high average speed on the flats by working together (you may have seen this on the TV) and no, you don't need anything like 600W to do it, so back to math club for you. Of course this is just another example of people being obsessed with Wattage and power without really having a clue. Hey, we even got swallowed up by the colluzzi bunch and spat out the back, so I'm not anywhere near elite much less pro-tour.

I bow to your superior intellect but would love to see he ride log. Besides, you didn't say anything about a small bunch - just you and your mate.
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Re: What is the point of the motor assistance?

Postby KenGS » Sat Aug 27, 2011 2:06 pm

Back to the topic, I thought the point of motor assistance was to provide some additional power to enable a cyclist lacking in power for whatever reason, to enjoy cycling like any other able-bodied cyclist. I don't think its got anything to do with getting more people on bikes en masse.
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Re: What is the point of the motor assistance?

Postby Joeblake » Sat Aug 27, 2011 2:18 pm

I don't think its got anything to do with getting more people on bikes en masse.


Perhaps you may not personally think that way, but certainly some of the more strident advocates seem to take that view (eg Alan101):

The Vic Auditor Generals report on bike policy found that 45 mins was something of a maximum time for bike commuters. If you can ebike at 30kmh, compared with 'normal cyclists' doing say 15kmh, then potentially you double the geographic catchment of possible cyclists, I submit. You stand to get more people biking to work or play. Calculating speed requires the use of time, and it's with time efficiency that an ebike can provide benefit.


He's arguing to get more people onto the cycleways, I'd say. :lol:

Joe

On edit: Link added:

viewtopic.php?f=51&t=40192&start=100
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Re: What is the point of the motor assistance?

Postby Joeblake » Sat Aug 27, 2011 5:02 pm

Hangdog98 wrote:Joe, the pressure in the Eastern states to increase funding and kilometres of cycleways is and has been a hard fought battle by countless entities including myself, yet the most powerful lobbies are publicly proclaiming to "tear up the bike paths" when they get elected. The reason they have traction on this issue is because they are able to show that they're a waste of money because not enough people are using them... and the voters are buying it.



Just having another read through the RTA's proposal for a new definition, and at the bottom of page 25, last paragraph, I came across this:

Thirdly, a potential increase in the number of cyclists due in part to an increase in product variety and assistance capability could lead to a reduction of crash rates for bicycles. It must be mentioned that some studies supporting this claim saw an increase in cycling following significant investments in cycling facilities. Without a comparable improvement in cycling facilities across Australia, it is uncertain if the potential increase in cycling and related crash rate reduction will occur.

At least some of the studies would seem to indicate that it's more important to have your infrastructure in place before worrying about increasing the capability (ie speed/power) of the bicycles. So keep at it, and don't get distracted by irrelevant issues.

The other point which people engaging in this debate seem to forget is that on page 8 of the proposal:

Requiring a pedal or throttle activation is seen as an unnecessary design restriction with no proven road safety benefits, therefore the motor activation mechanism will not be specified in the definition, although a condition for its activation could be specified. For example, a throttle control can still be used on a PAPC which motor can only provide assistance when the rider is pedalling.

So to me it seems that all the heartache about pedelec control is rather alarmist. There is a theoretical possibility that it might be introduced, not that it's going to happen regardless.

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Re: What is the point of the motor assistance?

Postby Hangdog98 » Sun Aug 28, 2011 2:25 am

At least some of the studies would seem to indicate that it's more important to have your infrastructure in place before worrying about increasing the capability (ie speed/power) of the bicycles. So keep at it, and don't get distracted by irrelevant issues.

Joe, no matter how beautiful the plan, one has to occasionally look at the results. In the sleepy hollow of WA the signs may be rosy and life as a cyclist is sweet, but where most Australians live, ie Sydney and Melbourne, the battle is hard fought and dangerous and the opposition is very powerful indeed.

I've been e-triking for over 6 years... It's fun, it's fast and it's far more efficient than the diamond frame wedgie machines

Trikes are pedal cars Joe. Should cars really be allowed in bike lanes? I don't think so. They should be on the road with the other cars.
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Re: What is the point of the motor assistance?

Postby KenGS » Sun Aug 28, 2011 7:26 am

Hangdog98 wrote:
At least some of the studies would seem to indicate that it's more important to have your infrastructure in place before worrying about increasing the capability (ie speed/power) of the bicycles. So keep at it, and don't get distracted by irrelevant issues.

Joe, no matter how beautiful the plan, one has to occasionally look at the results. In the sleepy hollow of WA the signs may be rosy and life as a cyclist is sweet, but where most Australians live, ie Sydney and Melbourne, the battle is hard fought and dangerous and the opposition is very powerful indeed.

Life as a cyclist here is the "battlefields" of Melbourne is pretty sweet. The problem must only be in Sydney

Hangdog98 wrote:
I've been e-triking for over 6 years... It's fun, it's fast and it's far more efficient than the diamond frame wedgie machines

Trikes are pedal cars Joe. Should cars really be allowed in bike lanes? I don't think so. They should be on the road with the other cars.

Is that a statement of law or an opinion?

Edit: misplaced quote
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Re: What is the point of the motor assistance?

Postby Joeblake » Sun Aug 28, 2011 10:22 am

Hangdog98 wrote:
I've been e-triking for over 6 years... It's fun, it's fast and it's far more efficient than the diamond frame wedgie machines

Trikes are pedal cars Joe. Should cars really be allowed in bike lanes? I don't think so. They should be on the road with the other cars.


:lol: :lol: :lol:

As KenGS points out the law doesn't think so, so perhaps there's another campaign for you to wage. Even have a classical war cry for you.

"Two wheels good, three wheels bad."

But that doesn't alter the fact that they're fun, fast and efficient. :wink:



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Re: What is the point of the motor assistance?

Postby Hangdog98 » Sun Aug 28, 2011 12:07 pm

KenGS wrote:Life as a cyclist here is the "battlefields" of Melbourne is pretty sweet. The problem must only be in Sydney

Pretty sweet you say? I'll be sure to pass that on to the families of the many cyclists killed on beach road and those assaulted by other (larger, oil powered) road users throughout Melbourne.

Joe, fun, fast and efficient, but still a pedal car :wink:
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Re: What is the point of the motor assistance?

Postby Joeblake » Sun Aug 28, 2011 12:59 pm

Hangdog98 wrote:Joe, fun, fast and efficient, but still a pedal car :wink:


And therefore ...??

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Re: What is the point of the motor assistance?

Postby KenGS » Sun Aug 28, 2011 3:31 pm

Hangdog98 wrote:
KenGS wrote:Life as a cyclist here is the "battlefields" of Melbourne is pretty sweet. The problem must only be in Sydney

Pretty sweet you say? I'll be sure to pass that on to the families of the many cyclists killed on beach road and those assaulted by other (larger, oil powered) road users throughout Melbourne.

So you are saying that if we had less regulation of e-bikes then these people would have been riding on the cycleway that runs alongside Beach Road and would not have been killed?
Hangdog98 wrote:Joe, fun, fast and efficient, but still a pedal car :wink:

Assertive, but still just an opinion :wink:
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Re: What is the point of the motor assistance?

Postby ChrisRider » Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:52 am

Pedal motor assistance makes a HUGE difference in travelling distances and up hills and inclines. You dont know until you try it!
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Re: What is the point of the motor assistance?

Postby Comedian » Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:46 pm

ChrisRider wrote:Pedal motor assistance makes a HUGE difference in travelling distances and up hills and inclines. You dont know until you try it!


That's the thing. I've tried bikes equipped with the old 200w systems and the current 250w pedelec system. I think both are more than adequate and are awesome.

Personally... I think people who want more are just after an electric motor bike and they they should register them and ride them on roads etc. Leave the cycle paths for bicycles and legal electrically assisted bikes I say. :)
Once you can climb hills on a bike it's all downhill. :mrgreen:

Hopefully I'll know what that's like..... one day. :shock: :lol:

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Re: What is the point of the motor assistance?

Postby Nobody » Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:02 pm

Hangdog98 wrote:Nobody was killed by me or any other speedy cyclists.
Rumours of my murder have been highly exaggerated. :wink:
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Re: What is the point of the motor assistance?

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:02 pm

Nobody wrote:
Hangdog98 wrote:Nobody was killed by me or any other speedy cyclists.
Rumours of my murder have been highly exaggerated. :wink:

Ve know vere you live and ve are vorking on it! :twisted:
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