First Ebike device/recommendations?

garyrmck
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Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2012 5:48 pm

First Ebike device/recommendations?

Postby garyrmck » Fri Dec 16, 2016 8:45 am

Hi,
I'm looking for some recommendations for a first EBike. Some detail. I'm 64 years old, have had a hip replacement. Not particularly fit, but was a keen rider up until 3 years ago - used to commute daily to work on my Giant hybrid 21 speed. The hip limits me to a unisex/step through as I can't lift my leg over the saddle. Usage will be day trips of 30-60 k's on bike tracks that may be bitumen,gravel,dirt carrying some panniers for picnic stuff. Figure an Bike will get me back in the saddle! I will be travelling with my partner who is super fit and a keen rider ....... Budget is $4k.

Seeing varying comments about brands and motors. Local bike shops advice has been useless.

Any recommendations very welcome.
cheers
Gary

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redsonic
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Location: Brisbane

Re: First Ebike device/recommendations?

Postby redsonic » Fri Dec 16, 2016 11:50 am

I don't have much to say here, except to make sure the fit is spot on. A lot of ebikes are one size fits all, and this may not work for you and your titanium hip. My partner had his hip replaced 2 months ago and gets on his regular bike by tilting it then stepping over. He says that the cycling is giving him no additional pain.
Good luck with your recovery and return to fitness.

cj7hawk
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Re: First Ebike device/recommendations?

Postby cj7hawk » Fri Dec 16, 2016 8:38 pm

If riding at 19kph is OK, go for a Pedelec. If you want to go about 25kph, you'll need to make your own bicycle. You can also buy a kit, however the outcome is not legal - you probably won't get bothered by the police but in the event of an accident, you might get some trouble over it.

Also Pedelec is a bit limited in range. If you have to ride 60km, it's not going to be able to put in the full power, since I think the best come with about 300 Wh of power, which will last about 20~30km at full power, though if you're OK to pedal a lot, you can still use it just as assistance when climbing hills.

If you want a serious commute bike, then a 200W PAPC is the best option. You can easily put 1kWH or more on it, and ride everywhere you want, with or without pedaling. You can add as much battery to a PAPC as you want.

Step-through PAPCs and Pedelecs are both pretty common. You can get them in folding options also - though not many sell PAPCs anymore so you might need to go for a Pedelec and just take a second battery with you in a Pannier.

A true (legal) PAPC has a label with the following wording ( by law ) - beware of "similar" wording - it must state exactly this to be legal.

EPAC according to EN15194
25 Km/h
250 W

All three lines must be present. US pedelecs often miss the 25 kph line as they can go faster, and are illegal in Australia.

An EPAC will provide the most assistance climbing.

Hope this helps -
Regards
David

garyrmck
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Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2012 5:48 pm

Re: First Ebike device/recommendations?

Postby garyrmck » Sat Dec 17, 2016 8:01 am

Thanks for the advice - won't be building my own, but will be buying a name brand. Not sure which power system to go for - Shimano, Bosch or Yamaha. Shimano seems to have the lowest torque, but I can get a bike with "auto" transmission, Bosh seems to be the most expensive but very good control, and Yamaha seems to have the most torque, but perhaps the least sophisticated control. Not sure if these evaluations are correct? Also the replacement batteries seem to be exorbitant in price. Can you cobble together your own battery pack using commonly available LiPo batteries - use them for radio control models and they are available for a tiny percentage of the replacement cost of these brands...
cheers
Gary

cj7hawk
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Re: First Ebike device/recommendations?

Postby cj7hawk » Sat Dec 17, 2016 6:06 pm

garyrmck wrote:Thanks for the advice - won't be building my own, but will be buying a name brand. Not sure which power system to go for - Shimano, Bosch or Yamaha. Shimano seems to have the lowest torque, but I can get a bike with "auto" transmission, Bosh seems to be the most expensive but very good control, and Yamaha seems to have the most torque, but perhaps the least sophisticated control. Not sure if these evaluations are correct? Also the replacement batteries seem to be exorbitant in price. Can you cobble together your own battery pack using commonly available LiPo batteries - use them for radio control models and they are available for a tiny percentage of the replacement cost of these brands...
cheers
Gary


Sure, but it does render the bike non-compliant with the law. I just ordered a 15Ah 22.2v battery - about 350Wh for around $200 including the battery management system. Let's assume you started with that, or similar, for 36v - the cost should be around $300 for around 500 Wh - with a 9S BMS (AT) 20A ( Max current sustained - around 700 Watts ) - yet the Bosch 500 Wh costs around AU$1200 I think - four times as much.

You could say that the 500Wh has to conform with EN15194, but the battery pack I put together also conforms with the requirements of EN15194 and could pass testing. It's over/undercharge protected and temperature protected.

Mind you, 500Wh would probably meet your needs, so if you do get a Bosch, I'd suggest going with that battery as the default.

Regards
David

garyrmck
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Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2012 5:48 pm

Re: First Ebike device/recommendations?

Postby garyrmck » Sat Dec 17, 2016 7:05 pm

Hi,

I was actually quoting a battery that I could make to point out the absurdity of the battery costs - $1200 for a 500 watt battery :-)
cheers
Gary

cj7hawk
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Re: First Ebike device/recommendations?

Postby cj7hawk » Sun Dec 18, 2016 12:19 am

garyrmck wrote:Hi,

I was actually quoting a battery that I could make to point out the absurdity of the battery costs - $1200 for a 500 watt battery :-)
cheers
Gary


But they are German watt-hours. German watt-hours have superior engineering to other watt-hours. Especially during Daylight Savings periods. :lol:

Yeah, I can't think of anything good about it either. I think after 2x as expensive, they are just taking the p.

\

garyrmck
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Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2012 5:48 pm

Re: First Ebike device/recommendations?

Postby garyrmck » Sun Dec 18, 2016 5:59 am

Based on Battery costs I've eliminated the Bosch. Now what about Yamaha and Shimano - are they just as absurd?

cheers
Gary

cj7hawk
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Re: First Ebike device/recommendations?

Postby cj7hawk » Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:43 pm

garyrmck wrote:Based on Battery costs I've eliminated the Bosch. Now what about Yamaha and Shimano - are they just as absurd?

cheers
Gary


Battery costs are one of the biggest costs in e-bikes.

Yamaha - Similar prices - or more. https://www.e-bikeshop.co.uk/eBike-Spar ... ike-Spares - around $1400.

I wouldn't expect Shimano to be any cheaper.

David

eldavo
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Re: First Ebike device/recommendations?

Postby eldavo » Sun Dec 18, 2016 4:17 pm

I have a Bosch, battery cost wasn't a major issue for me buying new, as with good storage care for the amount I use it, technology in battery tech, or whole new products will have moved on by the time it's cactus. Buying used however I would recommend factoring full battery replacement cost into the value/offer.

There are also work-arounds for custom-capable owners, e.g. I've fitted an auxiliary battery port to use extra/other supply (even a live charge generator if Cj7hawk went to market with one ;) but not had a need to use long range yet. I have had a 150km ride south to my inlaws with coastal headwind to deal with as a test ride, but I've avoided that scenario so far.

From my 2014 Bosch Performance Line with Alfine 8, the only product in market I've noticed competing with it I'd look into is the Merida e-Spresso with Di2 Alfine integrated with the STEPS motor for full automatic as you said, and other general riding and shifting benefit smarts of a motor and pedal gear system that communicate. In the 3-4k bracket, I don't know about long life use/issues for it. Battery cost isn't the only thing to consider for mid-drives with internal reductions, but our consumer laws with big bike brand dealers should be OK for 1st year in worst case.

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