1500W Dillenger - Real world experience

steliop
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1500W Dillenger - Real world experience

Postby steliop » Fri Dec 16, 2016 8:53 am

I'm considering buying a 1500W Dillenger kit. -Don't worry, it doesn't involve public roads.

I was wondering if there was anyone out there who owns one, and might be able to tell me their experience. -I see Dillenger have some specs under Product Description and Additional Information on their website, but I'm still interested in some real world feedback.

They're claiming 30km/h cruise speed, but I'm hoping to squeeze out 40km/h for under an hour. We're hoping to fit massive gearing so that the rider can assist.

Frustratingly, they have lower spec'd bikes on their website, with higher cruising speed, so I'm kinda hoping they've made a typo on the 1500W model.

Has anyone built up a 1500 that might be able to share their experience?

Stel

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Re: 1500W Dillenger - Real world experience

Postby Comedian » Fri Dec 16, 2016 9:07 am

steliop wrote:I'm considering buying a 1500W Dillenger kit. -Don't worry, it doesn't involve public roads.


Lol! Sure it isn't! :|

steliop wrote:They're claiming 30km/h cruise speed, but I'm hoping to squeeze out 40km/h for under an hour. We're hoping to fit massive gearing so that the rider can assist.

Frustratingly, they have lower spec'd bikes on their website, with higher cruising speed, so I'm kinda hoping they've made a typo on the 1500W model.

Stel


I've no experience with that kit, but if it's really good for 1500w they you should be looking to a mid 40's cruise as long as the bike it's fitted too is reasonably sporty.

cj7hawk
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Re: 1500W Dillenger - Real world experience

Postby cj7hawk » Fri Dec 16, 2016 8:41 pm

A kilowatt will easily hold 50 kph cruise. 1.5 Kw should do over 60.

Perhaps they aren't using the right voltage?

David.

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trailgumby
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Re: 1500W Dillenger - Real world experience

Postby trailgumby » Sat Dec 17, 2016 12:08 pm

Doesn't necessarily have to be on public roads. Any public area accessible by bicycle counts. So, for example, if I am on my mountain bike in a National Park, even if its singletrack, I am required to have a bell because the road rules apply.

The *only* areas where this will be legal to ride will be on private property.

Everywhere else, it is a registrable vehicle (in the sense that being motorised it falls under the requirement to be registered) and you will be subject to fines of the order of $2,000 and having a criminal record.

Police don't have to prove a thing. If they ticket you, under the Acts Interpretation Act in your state the onus falls on you t prove that you're eligible for the exception. Good luck with that.

steliop
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Re: 1500W Dillenger - Real world experience

Postby steliop » Sat Dec 17, 2016 5:10 pm

Thanks David.

Thanks trailgumby. Good to know.

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Re: 1500W Dillenger - Real world experience

Postby Comedian » Tue Dec 20, 2016 8:32 am

trailgumby wrote:Doesn't necessarily have to be on public roads. Any public area accessible by bicycle counts. So, for example, if I am on my mountain bike in a National Park, even if its singletrack, I am required to have a bell because the road rules apply.

The *only* areas where this will be legal to ride will be on private property.

Everywhere else, it is a registrable vehicle (in the sense that being motorised it falls under the requirement to be registered) and you will be subject to fines of the order of $2,000 and having a criminal record.

Police don't have to prove a thing. If they ticket you, under the Acts Interpretation Act in your state the onus falls on you t prove that you're eligible for the exception. Good luck with that.

To the best of my knowledge, I've never heard of anyone being done for an illegal e-bike in QLD. Not once, not ever. :shock: I've seen some e-rocket ships too.

Do the NSW police go looking for illegal e-bikes?

I think with the way electronics goes, that they are going to become more and more prevalent.

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Re: 1500W Dillenger - Real world experience

Postby trailgumby » Tue Dec 20, 2016 8:23 pm

There is at least one in Queensland. It was an e-bike that looked like a moped or motor scooter.

The woman was convicted but the conviction was not recorded, nor was she fined because she could demonstrate that she went to some lengths to establish that it was "legal".

Unfortunately, as the case proved, the advice she was given was quite wrong. It was given to her by the Queensland equivalent of the Roads and Maritime Services, among others.

Unfortunately my google-fu is weak and last time I tried turning it up I failed. :(

NSW Police don't go actively looking for them, but if you're dumb enough to ride one uphill at a rate of knots without pedalling past a highway patrol cop on a motorbike going the same way, you are going to get his attention. $2,000 fine. The cops are well aware of them. My Snr Sgt mate was talking to me about them last week, mostly ridden by Deliveroo riders whom he characterised (accurately) as clueless overseas students who have no traffic skills whatsoever.

That's a scenario that's going to blow up soon. I reckon those companies are going to get absolutely flogged in the courts and by the corporate regulators over a life-altering injury or death to one of their sham "subcontractors", which is a matter of if, not when.

Anyway, that's a subject for another thread.

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Re: 1500W Dillenger - Real world experience

Postby geebee » Wed Dec 21, 2016 9:37 pm

The speed is dependent on the windings, so you could have a 1.5kw motor topping out at 30 kph (it would climb well) but it would be extremely unlikely I would expect 40 kph+, if it is to slow just up the voltage but you may have to swap out the speed controller as well, plus you would need a charger for the higher voltage, get expensive fast.

If this is for off road use it would be better getting a geared hub or better still a crank drive as the torque of direct drives is poor at low rpm when climbing off road, there torque increases with rpm's.

As others have pointed out highly illegal any where that the public can go and I have seen 2 separate e-bikes pulled over and fined on the Australian cops show the police stopped them as they were doing 40 kph and not pedalling.
More difficult is if you are in an accident as it is a unregistered vehicle being illegally operated on the road.

cj7hawk
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Re: 1500W Dillenger - Real world experience

Postby cj7hawk » Wed Dec 21, 2016 10:02 pm

geebee wrote:If this is for off road use it would be better getting a geared hub or better still a crank drive as the torque of direct drives is poor at low rpm when climbing off road, there torque increases with rpm's.


Unless you compensate for back-EMF, then torque decreases with RPMs.

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Re: 1500W Dillenger - Real world experience

Postby geebee » Wed Dec 21, 2016 10:15 pm

cj7hawk wrote:
geebee wrote:If this is for off road use it would be better getting a geared hub or better still a crank drive as the torque of direct drives is poor at low rpm when climbing off road, there torque increases with rpm's.


Unless you compensate for back-EMF, then torque decreases with RPMs.


In the real world and discussing direct drive brushless hub motors for bikes, ok?
Including the 3 different ones I have ridden that are similar to the one the OP is considering.
Last edited by geebee on Wed Dec 21, 2016 10:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 1500W Dillenger - Real world experience

Postby Comedian » Wed Dec 21, 2016 10:24 pm

trailgumby wrote:That's a scenario that's going to blow up soon. I reckon those companies are going to get absolutely flogged in the courts and by the corporate regulators over a life-altering injury or death to one of their sham "subcontractors", which is a matter of if, not when.


The point I've been making but no one is hearing... the way electronics go these things are going to get cheaper and cheaper. My local frankenbiker does 18k in 35 minutes. In Brisbane that is pretty well the fastest way to go anywhere in peak traffic short of a helicopter.

The only real issue I see with them is contention on bike paths. Other than that I think they should be allowed. Just got to sort the former issue...

geebee
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Re: 1500W Dillenger - Real world experience

Postby geebee » Wed Dec 21, 2016 10:39 pm

Comedian wrote:
trailgumby wrote:That's a scenario that's going to blow up soon. I reckon those companies are going to get absolutely flogged in the courts and by the corporate regulators over a life-altering injury or death to one of their sham "subcontractors", which is a matter of if, not when.


The point I've been making but no one is hearing... the way electronics go these things are going to get cheaper and cheaper. My local frankenbiker does 18k in 35 minutes. In Brisbane that is pretty well the fastest way to go anywhere in peak traffic short of a helicopter.

The only real issue I see with them is contention on bike paths. Other than that I think they should be allowed. Just got to sort the former issue...


That is not going to happen unfortunately, if you followed the fight to get to 250w it took a lot of time (years) and argument to get the extra 50w to match Europe.
Germany also allow a higher speed ebike that requires number plates and a proper helmet to ride plus can only be used on roads!
But even if classed as a moped not all states even allow moped in Oz.
"S-Pedelecs: have pedal-assist only, motor power can be greater than 250 watts, can attain a higher speed (e.g., 45 km/h) before motor stops assisting, legally classed as a moped or motorcycle (not a bicycle)"

cj7hawk
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Re: 1500W Dillenger - Real world experience

Postby cj7hawk » Thu Dec 22, 2016 10:07 am

geebee wrote:
cj7hawk wrote:
geebee wrote:If this is for off road use it would be better getting a geared hub or better still a crank drive as the torque of direct drives is poor at low rpm when climbing off road, there torque increases with rpm's.


Unless you compensate for back-EMF, then torque decreases with RPMs.


In the real world and discussing direct drive brushless hub motors for bikes, ok?
Including the 3 different ones I have ridden that are similar to the one the OP is considering.


In an electric motor, torque is related to current, which is related to voltage across the motor coil, which is related to the speed of the motor - it doesn't matter how you configure an electric motor - with a constant power source it's going to lose torque as RPM increases due to back-emf.

It doesn't really matter if it's mid drive or hub motor - it's the same.

Are you talking about initial torque when taking off from a standing start? Some of the motor controllers have a problem with very low speeds and there will be torque loss there - probably as a protective measure to keep from blowing the mosfets under the kids of loads you can generate with a stalled motor ( also known as LRA or Locked Rotor Amps ) - If you're genuinely observing higher torque at higher speeds, then its caused by the motor controller, and not the brushless hub motor.

Here's an example for an EV Brushless. -

Image

Can you further describe the observation? I'd be interested to know more about them - I use a direct drive brushless hub motor too, but it tends to have better torque at low RPM - especially when I'm crawling up a hill - that's when it really begins to pull. But there's a point where the controller has had enough and drops out entirely until I re-throttle.

The torque difference of mid-drive and planetary geared hub drives over direct-drive is more due to the gearing as a torque multiplier than any other factor AFAIK.

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Re: 1500W Dillenger - Real world experience

Postby geebee » Thu Dec 22, 2016 5:13 pm

First up apologies, I am aware of the way an electric motor works and yes you are correct and also the torque multiplication via gearing.
I realised what I had typed was theoretically incorrect but by the time I had corrected the reply I was locked out of saving the edit due to Comedians reply.

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