Hacking the Pedelec speed limiter?

stinkfeet
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Hacking the Pedelec speed limiter?

Postby stinkfeet » Wed Mar 15, 2017 6:10 pm

Ok I'm new here, and after spending hours googling without luck I thought I'd try a forum to find some help.
I'd like to purchase an ebike, prefer a branded pedelec because I want some exercise, but don't want to be slugging my guts out on the big hills around where I live. The catch is, the 25km/h restriction is a deal breaker for me.
What is the situation with hacks to break this limiter? I don't need to hoon, 35km/h is probably enough to satisfy my requirements, but why would I pay $3k+ to have my machine not even go as fast as I can pedal? It seems absurd, especially since I own a sportsbike that will do 240km/h down my local street, and it has no limiter.
Ethics and legals aside, assuming I'm on a private road, what options are there to purchase a factory pedelec capable of 35km/h? I've seen some hacks online, but a lot of them are old and also have comments saying the manufacturers patch the controllers to prevent them working. So I'd like to know if there are any options for 2017 model bikes? Do bike shops have mods? Is it easier to import from a country that has a higher limit?

stinkfeet
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Re: Hacking the Pedelec speed limiter?

Postby stinkfeet » Wed Mar 15, 2017 11:01 pm

So I been doing more research. California seems to have a 28mph (45km/h) rule, so the current thinking is just import a bike from there?
What's interesting is that this: https://www.giant-bicycles.com/us/bikes-quick-eplus is the same bike as this: https://www.giant-bicycles.com/au/bikes-quick-eplus, but the US version has a 45km/h limiter instead of 25km/h. Surely this is just a firmware difference? Anyone know how easy it would be to change?

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Cycleops70
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Re: Hacking the Pedelec speed limiter?

Postby Cycleops70 » Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:15 am

I don't think you'd even notice. If you can pedal more than 25kph normally (chances are you're not doing that up hill), then there's no reason you can't continue to do that when the motor cuts out.

Alternatively, buy a 200W machine with a throttle.

The reason they are restricted is that there needs to be a line drawn between a bicycle & a motorbike. Which would then need licence, registration & number plate.

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Re: Hacking the Pedelec speed limiter?

Postby Aushiker » Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:02 am

I would suggest a more appropriate resource for exploring such options would be the Endless Sphere forums. You can find them at https://endless-sphere.com/
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Re: Hacking the Pedelec speed limiter?

Postby Calvin27 » Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:18 am

Most ebike controllers will ask for wheels size. I think the common ones will go to 24". Stick it on 24" and the top speed limit should go up, but it will display incorrect speeds.
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Re: Hacking the Pedelec speed limiter?

Postby cj7hawk » Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:56 pm

Legals aside - because the only ethical issues involved are deliberately breaking the law, which if legals are aside is no longer an ethical issue - Just get a tuning box.

You will find them for just about any common bike - very inexpensive ( compared to the bike ).

https://www.ebiketuning.com/

I think that covers pretty much everything. Make sure it's a 48v system, because at some point, voltage is important to maintain power output. But I think they have tuning systems for just about every bike available and they fix the incorrect speed display issue as well.

You should get between 45 and 55 kph with most bikes, though some are only around 40.

I don't endorse building bikes that have illegal output capacities in Australia, but unless people start pushing past the legal limits, then the authorities will constantly argue that there's no need for increase power on bicycles in Australia.

Good luck with your project - :)

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Re: Hacking the Pedelec speed limiter?

Postby outnabike » Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:13 pm

cj7hawk wrote:Legals aside

I don't endorse building bikes that have illegal output capacities in Australia, but unless people start pushing past the legal limits, then the authorities will constantly argue that there's no need for increase power on bicycles in Australia.

Good luck with your project - :)



I don't understand this whole thread....Legals aside?

Isn't that the same as hoons speeding and doing donuts on the roads?

So the premise is, if we all start to do it the law will be softened? But I do agree that it works in Vic to pursue poor driving skills.

After all, the close passers of bicyclists seem to be increasing and it is accepted by the police. So yep it will work alright, wear the public down I suppose.
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Re: Hacking the Pedelec speed limiter?

Postby Comedian » Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:45 pm

So, I'm just saying... that if you did fit one of those tuning modules from the site listed above... things you might notice if you fitted it to your bosch powered 250w e-bike.

-You still have the same amount of power - so you aren't going up that hill any quicker.
-Further on that.. the gearing is the same... ie not high. Ours totally maxes out at 40 and 35 is on the upper end of it's gearing range. The motors are designed to give full power at a lowish cadence (maybe 80) so with no front derailleur you're limited. I believe you can get bigger front sprockets however I don't think the "active line" motor has the power for it. We've actually taken the 11-28 rear off ours and fitted a 11-36 as it struggled on the big hills around our place. This was an excellent decision.
-You might actually get a better workout .. because as standard most people pedal up to where the assistance cuts out and just put in the minimum to keep it rolling along. Without the limiter it encourages you to contribute more substantially. :shock:
-If you set it on turbo - the motor will be working full power all the time and you'll flatten a battery in well less than two hours. I don't think this would be at all good for long term durability of either battery or motor. I do occasionally use turbo it when I'm mixing with motor traffic on roads for short bursts but not in normal use.
-You might find that with no cutout you will really enjoy riding it on tour or sport rather than full power. You'll still get excellent battery life, and it will just be a bit more enjoyable ride. You'll comfortably sit with neither the bike or yourself working excessively hard at 28-32. This is very compatible and safe with general bike traffic. At this speed you don't stand out at all, and I'm not sure if everyone has done this but I don't see many e-bikes that seem to have the limiter in place.
-In some cases local shops will sell these, with the proviso that you've voided your warranty. The units are a sinch to install and remove but I believe a dealer can tell from the data the unit collects.
-I am against this modification in principle because if you aren't a good rider or are new to riding then you might make some bad decisions that could result in you or others being hurt. People are typically generous in their assessment of their riding abilities, and even if you ride a motorbike or drive a car push bikes are different, with different hazards and limitations. I principally ride roadbikes and I've done a lot of miles at these speeds. My wife just putters. But if I was letting my kids ride it - I'd prefer the bike governed to 25. If I hadn't ridden a bike for a long time I'd ride it governed for a good while. Even with the poxy active line motor if you dial up turbo there is potential that you will find yourself in a sticky situation of either your own or another riders making. #justsaying.

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Re: Hacking the Pedelec speed limiter?

Postby Comedian » Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:55 pm

outnabike wrote:
cj7hawk wrote:Legals aside

I don't endorse building bikes that have illegal output capacities in Australia, but unless people start pushing past the legal limits, then the authorities will constantly argue that there's no need for increase power on bicycles in Australia.

Good luck with your project - :)



I don't understand this whole thread....Legals aside?

Isn't that the same as hoons speeding and doing donuts on the roads?

So the premise is, if we all start to do it the law will be softened? But I do agree that it works in Vic to pursue poor driving skills.

After all, the close passers of bicyclists seem to be increasing and it is accepted by the police. So yep it will work alright, wear the public down I suppose.


See my post above - even with the governor disabled these are not fast bikes. In fact.. typically they are only just as fast as regular unassisted bike traffic.

Keep in mind that these bikes and this standard was based on european conditions - where they have direct and connected bikeways and heavy bike traffic that travels much slower. Here, where the bikeway might be double the distance of the car trip, being governed to 25k makes the trips really quite long. Further commuter bike traffic goes much faster that a 25k limited e-bike.

Remember that if they are dialled up these bikes have very limited range, and durability. Personally the ones I object to are the franken bikes...

Also, I don't think removing the governor on your e-bike will have the tiniest bit of effect on the government changing the regs..

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Re: Hacking the Pedelec speed limiter?

Postby stinkfeet » Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:54 pm

Thanks for all the replies, especially the links to useful info. I'll try to respond to everyone here:
Cycleops70 wrote:I don't think you'd even notice. If you can pedal more than 25kph normally (chances are you're not doing that up hill), then there's no reason you can't continue to do that when the motor cuts out.


I took my bike for a spin the other day with a GPS. I was averaging less than 20km/h, but could get to about 25km/h if I pushed. And if I hammered I managed 35km/h. The difference is that this required effort, I merely want the same experience without risking a heart attack :)
(ie small effort I like, large effort not so much)

The reason they are restricted is that there needs to be a line drawn between a bicycle & a motorbike. Which would then need licence, registration & number plate.


But does there? The whole idea of new technology is to do things in new ways. If we constrained cars to act the same way as a horse there'd be no point. We need to move forward and evolve laws to adapt to new ways of doing things. That will only happen by applying some sort of pressure on existing laws.

outnabike wrote:I don't understand this whole thread....Legals aside?
Isn't that the same as hoons speeding and doing donuts on the roads?


The law is not static. Using the car analogy again, when cars were first invented you had have someone walk in front of it waving a red flag. Had people not ignored these stupid laws we may still be forced to do this today.

Comedian wrote:Also, I don't think removing the governor on your e-bike will have the tiniest bit of effect on the government changing the regs..


Not if only one person does it. But when thousands of people have done it, with no real impact to safety, the laws slowly get ignored, and eventually modified to suit reality. Change doesn't happen through obedience.

-I am against this modification in principle because if you aren't a good rider or are new to riding then you might make some bad decisions that could result in you or others being hurt.


I agree somewhat, but I'm not talking about creating a 60km/h+ hoon bike. I want to go as fast as I can go now, just with less effort so I can go further, and at a decent pace.

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Re: Hacking the Pedelec speed limiter?

Postby Comedian » Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:06 pm

Stinkfeet... what I didn't put in there is I can go further and faster on my road bike than I can on the e-bike. However, I can ride the e-bike in normal clothes and stop at the other end and be in reasonable shape. Oh, and carry stuff on the e-bike too.

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Re: Hacking the Pedelec speed limiter?

Postby Cycleops70 » Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:22 pm

stinkfeet wrote:But does there? The whole idea of new technology is to do things in new ways. If we constrained cars to act the same way as a horse there'd be no point. We need to move forward and evolve laws to adapt to new ways of doing things. That will only happen by applying some sort of pressure on existing laws.


I'm not sure I understand your analogy.
A more powerful motorised bicycle is not really something new. It's a motorbike.
It's how it came about in the first place, by putting a motor on a bicycle frame.
It's just reinventing the motorbike.

And a car is not really a development from a horse.

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Re: Hacking the Pedelec speed limiter?

Postby outnabike » Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:45 am

So why was it first called the "horseless carriage?" Its ability measured in "horse power" :)
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Re: Hacking the Pedelec speed limiter?

Postby koshari » Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:19 am

25kmh is plenty fast enough. You cant even drive a car faster than that on melbournes monash fwy in peak and as others have stated the motors power limitations will likely dictate your maximum possable speed going up a hill... . I think what you are after in an electric motorbike/scooter. As you claim to have a sports bike already i would assume you have the appropriate licence. Just register it and yoir set.

By the way going faster on a bicycle will prolly reduce your chances of a heart attack. Last i saw froome and co were riding pretty fast and haven't cardiac arrested.
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Re: Hacking the Pedelec speed limiter?

Postby cj7hawk » Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:44 am

koshari wrote:25kmh is plenty fast enough. You cant even drive a car faster than that on melbournes monash fwy in peak and as others have stated the motors power limitations will likely dictate your maximum possable speed going up a hill... . I think what you are after in an electric motorbike/scooter. As you claim to have a sports bike already i would assume you have the appropriate licence. Just register it and yoir set.

By the way going faster on a bicycle will prolly reduce your chances of a heart attack. Last i saw froome and co were riding pretty fast and haven't cardiac arrested.


I think a few important facts are getting lost in this discussion.

1) REAL legitimate pedelecs can't do 25kph under power. They're not allowed to. Typically they do about 19 kph.
2) Most pedelecs in Australia can do 25 kph. They are illegal anyway regardless that they are sold as legal.
3) Police don't really care how fast electric bicycles go. Within reason. They certainly don't enforce the laws about them.
4) People already import approved models in unapproved configuration for this reason - I saw a national pizza chain doing this.
5) 30 kph is a reasonable commute speed - not 25 kph. Trust me - I have a bicycle on the legal limit. Another 5kph would keep me up with the commuters.
6) 40 kph feels about the comfortable speed limit for e-bikes. After this, it gets a bit hairy and braking becomes a problem.
7) Road speeds and Path optimal speeds do vary about 10 kph ( see 5 and 6 ) - I used a very long hill to do tests around (6). (5) I can do with my ebike. Legally. At 200W.

So given this, and the fact most ebikes sold in Australia are illegal anyway, then I can't see a valid reason to criticize someone for tuning their ebike. We all knew it was possible 10 years ago. We all had conversations about it 4 years ago. It's hardly a surprise. Police won't enforce the laws so unless you have a petrol engine like I do, there's no reason to follow the law at all - others don't - in fact, the majority don't, so it's a bad law - I agree it needs people to challenge it. Hopefully people who will fight the ticket if they get caught, on the technicalities of the case.

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Re: Hacking the Pedelec speed limiter?

Postby Comedian » Sat Mar 18, 2017 12:12 pm

koshari wrote:25kmh is plenty fast enough.


I don't know where you live, but in Brisbane we have a dedicated bicycle path near the river. It's very busy. If you sit on 25k you'll be nearly wiped off the bike by people doing 5, 10, or even commonly 15k faster than you on road bikes.

I think in these things .. being sensible is everything. If you "tweak" your ebike, and ride sensibly you won't stand out at all.. and you're probably safer as you're going a similar speed to the crowd. I think this is really a very critical point to safety.

What I think is going to be a real problem is the increased prevalence of "Frankenbikes". The issue is that these guys and gals are operating far faster than the average cyclist so they pose a real crash risk. If they rode on the road then it wouldn't be a problem, but I think that part of the appeal is that they can use bike infrastructure which they perceive is safer or faster than riding on the road.

Watch this guy.. he's quite careful on the path but then opens the tap on the road. Passes me at 40 like I'm standing still. One other day he wasn't so careful passing me on a blind crest of a hill, and thats what I'm concerned about. Personally - I've never heard of anyone ever being booked, even someone on one of these frankenbikes. I don't know what the answer is - but I can't see anything changing soon.

https://vimeo.com/190931648

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Re: Hacking the Pedelec speed limiter?

Postby Thoglette » Sat Mar 18, 2017 5:16 pm

Comedian wrote:I don't know where you live, but in Brisbane we have a dedicated bicycle path near the river. It's very busy. If you sit on 25k you'll be nearly wiped off the bike by people doing 5, 10, or even commonly 15k faster than you on road bikes.

....then you ride with BAN ME NOW-wits who need to take care and slow down when passing.

This is EXACTLY the same attitude that resulted in the carnage on the road we continue to suffer. And we're all fools if we allow such behaviour to persist.
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Re: Hacking the Pedelec speed limiter?

Postby koshari » Sat Mar 18, 2017 5:20 pm

Comedian wrote:
koshari wrote:25kmh is plenty fast enough.


I don't know where you live, but in Brisbane we have a dedicated bicycle path near the river. It's very busy. If you sit on 25k you'll be nearly wiped off the bike by people doing 5, 10, or even commonly 15k faster than you on road bikes.

I think in these things .. being sensible is everything. If you "tweak" your ebike, and ride sensibly you won't stand out at all.. and you're probably safer as you're going a similar speed to the crowd. I think this is really a very critical point to safety.
infrastructure which they perceive is safer or faster than riding on the road.



https://vimeo.com/190931648


Iam saying the throttle of 25 kmh is enough. You can always pwdal harder to go faster.
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Re: Hacking the Pedelec speed limiter?

Postby biker jk » Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:04 pm

Comedian wrote:
koshari wrote:25kmh is plenty fast enough.


I don't know where you live, but in Brisbane we have a dedicated bicycle path near the river. It's very busy. If you sit on 25k you'll be nearly wiped off the bike by people doing 5, 10, or even commonly 15k faster than you on road bikes.

I think in these things .. being sensible is everything. If you "tweak" your ebike, and ride sensibly you won't stand out at all.. and you're probably safer as you're going a similar speed to the crowd. I think this is really a very critical point to safety.

What I think is going to be a real problem is the increased prevalence of "Frankenbikes". The issue is that these guys and gals are operating far faster than the average cyclist so they pose a real crash risk. If they rode on the road then it wouldn't be a problem, but I think that part of the appeal is that they can use bike infrastructure which they perceive is safer or faster than riding on the road.

Watch this guy.. he's quite careful on the path but then opens the tap on the road. Passes me at 40 like I'm standing still. One other day he wasn't so careful passing me on a blind crest of a hill, and thats what I'm concerned about. Personally - I've never heard of anyone ever being booked, even someone on one of these frankenbikes. I don't know what the answer is - but I can't see anything changing soon.

https://vimeo.com/190931648


Yes these Frankenbikes should be stopped. I'm not sure this forum should be promoting the illegal modification of bicycles into Frankenbikes. 25kmh is fine, I have no issue with that.

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Re: Hacking the Pedelec speed limiter?

Postby stinkfeet » Sat Mar 18, 2017 11:42 pm

Cycleops70 wrote:I'm not sure I understand your analogy.
A more powerful motorised bicycle is not really something new. It's a motorbike.

Technically, it's a bike with a motor, so yes it's a 'motor' 'bike', but not in the same sense as the traditional motorbike (noisy, smelly, fast, dangerous) that the laws were designed for. We now have a new variant that is different enough to warrant new laws (as seen in some other more progressive places)


koshari wrote:25kmh is plenty fast enough. You cant even drive a car faster than that on melbournes monash fwy in peak

That's in your situation. Where I live, I have stretches of road I wouldn't be able to do 10km/h, and I have others I can do 35km/h. I should be able to use technology to take advantage of that. What is magical about 25km/h that can't be applied to 35km/h?

Comedian wrote:What I think is going to be a real problem is the increased prevalence of "Frankenbikes". The issue is that these guys and gals are operating far faster than the average cyclist so they pose a real crash risk.

Agree 100%. The electric bike law should mimic what a normal person can do on a push bike. ie you have to pedal to move it, and the speed and behavior is limited to what is likely expected from a regular rider. Simply raising the limit to 35km/h for pedelecs would address this. And I'd be happy to pay some form of registration to allow such a device. As motors and batteries improve, small efficient electric vehicles are going to replace more and more cars as the the way to move in dense cities. The govt needs to adjust it's regulations to suit.

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Re: Hacking the Pedelec speed limiter?

Postby ChrisR24 » Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:25 pm

This has been an interesting and enlightening discussion to me. I hadn't realised just how arbitrary the laws were in this area.

From my point of view where I'm using the e-bike as a commuting replacement to a car or public transport, anything that would allow me to do the commute on the bike faster would be great. Therefore I'd like the limit increased from 25 km/hr. The time savings would add up.

The speed increase might also convince others to switch to an e-bike since the time comparisons with the other traffic options becomes more favourable. I wonder how much it would be "worth" to society/government/etc to have someone switch from commuting by car to alternate means and especially to cycling?

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Re: Hacking the Pedelec speed limiter?

Postby Comedian » Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:05 am

biker jk wrote:
Comedian wrote:
koshari wrote:25kmh is plenty fast enough.


I don't know where you live, but in Brisbane we have a dedicated bicycle path near the river. It's very busy. If you sit on 25k you'll be nearly wiped off the bike by people doing 5, 10, or even commonly 15k faster than you on road bikes.

I think in these things .. being sensible is everything. If you "tweak" your ebike, and ride sensibly you won't stand out at all.. and you're probably safer as you're going a similar speed to the crowd. I think this is really a very critical point to safety.

What I think is going to be a real problem is the increased prevalence of "Frankenbikes". The issue is that these guys and gals are operating far faster than the average cyclist so they pose a real crash risk. If they rode on the road then it wouldn't be a problem, but I think that part of the appeal is that they can use bike infrastructure which they perceive is safer or faster than riding on the road.

Watch this guy.. he's quite careful on the path but then opens the tap on the road. Passes me at 40 like I'm standing still. One other day he wasn't so careful passing me on a blind crest of a hill, and thats what I'm concerned about. Personally - I've never heard of anyone ever being booked, even someone on one of these frankenbikes. I don't know what the answer is - but I can't see anything changing soon.

https://vimeo.com/190931648


Yes these Frankenbikes should be stopped. I'm not sure this forum should be promoting the illegal modification of bicycles into Frankenbikes. 25kmh is fine, I have no issue with that.

Just for clarification.. a legal pedalec with hacked speed limiter still has 250w. Our bike sits comfortably on the flat at 28-32 ish. The definition of a frankenbike is fairly loose, but the one in the video I'm told has 2500w. He's got uphill KOMs in the area at 50kph.

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Re: Hacking the Pedelec speed limiter?

Postby Comedian » Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:11 am

ChrisR24 wrote:This has been an interesting and enlightening discussion to me. I hadn't realised just how arbitrary the laws were in this area.

From my point of view where I'm using the e-bike as a commuting replacement to a car or public transport, anything that would allow me to do the commute on the bike faster would be great. Therefore I'd like the limit increased from 25 km/hr. The time savings would add up.

The speed increase might also convince others to switch to an e-bike since the time comparisons with the other traffic options becomes more favourable. I wonder how much it would be "worth" to society/government/etc to have someone switch from commuting by car to alternate means and especially to cycling?


So, from my place in BNE it's 8k to the city by car. You can't use that on the bike because you'll be run over. So, I've got to ride 14k to get there safely. On an un-hacked pedalec that was a 45 minute trip, which is about 10 minutes longer than my roadie. A hacked pedalec about the same as the roadie. The bus takes about 45-50 minutes if traffic is good (although its widely variable).

Clearly that extra 20 minutes a day would be a big positive for cycling if you were on the fence

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Re: Hacking the Pedelec speed limiter?

Postby cj7hawk » Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:13 pm

Comedian wrote:
biker jk wrote:
Yes these Frankenbikes should be stopped. I'm not sure this forum should be promoting the illegal modification of bicycles into Frankenbikes. 25kmh is fine, I have no issue with that.

Just for clarification.. a legal pedalec with hacked speed limiter still has 250w. Our bike sits comfortably on the flat at 28-32 ish. The definition of a frankenbike is fairly loose, but the one in the video I'm told has 2500w. He's got uphill KOMs in the area at 50kph.



Actually, you're completely off the mark there - Most current Pedalecs have around 1000W of power or more - some around 2000W of capability - The 250W bit doesn't actually exist - It's simply a random "Point" on the power curve as defined by EN15194, and is only there to represent the "25 kph" top speed concept, as 250W is what you need to go about 25kph reliably on a bicycle.

At no time is the maximum power of a pedelec, any pedelec, limited to 250W. Ever. The standard makes sure of that.

Hacking the speed limited removes the requirement to drop power prior to reaching 25 kph, so as a result, the bicycle can easily achieve speeds of around 45~50 kph. More if you really wanted to tweak it as well.

I think some serious reconsideration of what constitutes a "Frankenbike" needs to be made here - The term used to be applied to people installed 200W motors on dodgy backyard bicycles. Then it was on 60 kph throttle bikes.

Now, it's any unlocked Pedelec.

Yet, even in Europe, where they have had EN15194 for some time now, many countries with far denser pedestrian/cyclist/car traffic are realizing that Pedelecs need to be capable of up to about 45 kph - They call them speed pedelecs, and many governments are now allowing them or even providing licensing options.

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Re: Hacking the Pedelec speed limiter?

Postby Comedian » Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:11 pm

cj7hawk wrote:Actually, you're completely off the mark there - Most current Pedalecs have around 1000W of power or more - some around 2000W of capability - The 250W bit doesn't actually exist - It's simply a random "Point" on the power curve as defined by EN15194, and is only there to represent the "25 kph" top speed concept, as 250W is what you need to go about 25kph reliably on a bicycle.

At no time is the maximum power of a pedelec, any pedelec, limited to 250W. Ever. The standard makes sure of that.

Hacking the speed limited removes the requirement to drop power prior to reaching 25 kph, so as a result, the bicycle can easily achieve speeds of around 45~50 kph. More if you really wanted to tweak it as well.

I think some serious reconsideration of what constitutes a "Frankenbike" needs to be made here - The term used to be applied to people installed 200W motors on dodgy backyard bicycles. Then it was on 60 kph throttle bikes.

Now, it's any unlocked Pedelec.

Yet, even in Europe, where they have had EN15194 for some time now, many countries with far denser pedestrian/cyclist/car traffic are realizing that Pedelecs need to be capable of up to about 45 kph - They call them speed pedelecs, and many governments are now allowing them or even providing licensing options.


Ok, so you say. Our Bosch Active Line motor (supposedly 250) even unlocked... the only way it's doing 45-50 is off the side of a cliff. I'm a reasonably fit cyclist, and if I put in the big ones on a dead flat the bike is only capable of high 30's, but that's with me working hard (circal 250w from me). My wife with the bike on turbo would top out circa 35k.

I've got power meters on my roadbikes, and I can categorically say that our bosch does not have 1000w, nor does it have 500W. I can't judge for sure if it's 250w on the dot, but it wouldn't have much more than that, assuming the wattage calculations are comparable (which is probably a big if).

So, what I call a franken bike is what I linked up above. That's a bike that can effortlessly accelerate up to 50k away from a sprinting roadie (putting in 800w). The bike linked above has an uphill KOM at nearly 50kph. On the same hill, our bosch e-bike can't hold 25 with me pedaling as well.

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