Hacking the Pedelec speed limiter?

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Thoglette
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Re: Hacking the Pedelec speed limiter?

Postby Thoglette » Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:49 pm

cj7hawk wrote:Yet, even in Europe, where they have had EN15194 for some time now, many countries with far denser pedestrian/cyclist/car traffic are realizing that Pedelecs need to be capable of up to about 45 kph - They call them speed pedelecs, and many governments are now allowing them or even providing licensing options.


Once upon a time we a class of vehicle called "mopeds" - motor assisted pedal vehicles. This is the space these high powered electric bikes belong: on the road in the space between high speed cyclists and 70kph capable scooters.

Like 45kph peletons and petrol scooters, they have no place on PSPs.

Nor do they belong on Freeways, which points to a (another) large hole in the Australian way of designing main roads
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Re: Hacking the Pedelec speed limiter?

Postby cj7hawk » Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:22 pm

Comedian wrote:
Ok, so you say. Our Bosch Active Line motor (supposedly 250) even unlocked... the only way it's doing 45-50 is off the side of a cliff. I'm a reasonably fit cyclist, and if I put in the big ones on a dead flat the bike is only capable of high 30's, but that's with me working hard (circal 250w from me). My wife with the bike on turbo would top out circa 35k.

I've got power meters on my roadbikes, and I can categorically say that our bosch does not have 1000w, nor does it have 500W. I can't judge for sure if it's 250w on the dot, but it wouldn't have much more than that, assuming the wattage calculations are comparable (which is probably a big if).

So, what I call a franken bike is what I linked up above. That's a bike that can effortlessly accelerate up to 50k away from a sprinting roadie (putting in 800w). The bike linked above has an uphill KOM at nearly 50kph. On the same hill, our bosch e-bike can't hold 25 with me pedaling as well.


Yep, that's exactly what I'm saying. Bosch specifically? well, speeds per bike do vary... However -



and

https://www.e-bikeshop.co.uk/blog/post/how-to-de-restrict-a-bosch-electric-bike/

and

https://www.ebiketuning.com/comparison/ ... uning.html

So, yes, for the Bosch, Specifically, 50km/h is the typical attained speed with a tuned bike... And I use the term "Tuned" Loosely. In the case of petrol, it meant someone who had high-level machinist skills, which might have gotten them to 40kph. On the Bosch? It's as difficult as plugging in a socket. If someone can't manage that, then they probably don't have the skills to ride a bicycle either.

But that's just the off-the-shelf Bosch update. I could probably get it doing well over 70 kph.

It takes a lot of technology to get a legal fully-compliant 200W Pedal Cycle that can do up to 35kph in every state, with absolute compliance. To get there, it took a bit of research. Making a Bosch go fast? That would be much easier. And wouldn't look any different from a normal Bosch. Heck, I could probably even make it untraceable - that is, if the bicycle was ever dyno'ed it would only ever test as compliance.

I could also probably take any off-the-shelf locked Bosch Pedelec and demonstrate it wasn't compliant... The laws are actually a bit of a mess.

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Re: Hacking the Pedelec speed limiter?

Postby Comedian » Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:39 am

cj7hawk wrote:So, yes, for the Bosch, Specifically, 50km/h is the typical attained speed with a tuned bike... And I use the term "Tuned" Loosely. In the case of petrol, it meant someone who had high-level machinist skills, which might have gotten them to 40kph. On the Bosch? It's as difficult as plugging in a socket. If someone can't manage that, then they probably don't have the skills to ride a bicycle either.

But that's just the off-the-shelf Bosch update. I could probably get it doing well over 70 kph.

Just rubbish! 50kph is the maximum speed that the tuning box will support... IE that is the new limit. It is a theoretical speed only though.

it's a total moot point though because our bike doesn't have the power or the gearing... even to get to 40 on the flat... With the owner putting in everything he's got. And if you did that for very long you're range would be tiny.

Anyway, I just want to make it clear.. not everyone removes the limiter so they can sit on 50. Our bike sits comfortably at 28-32 which just makes the long commute a little quicker than the previous maximum of 25.

The last time I rode it somewhere.. I was on the run on the way in and had an average through strava of 24.9. On the way home I averaged 22.

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Re: Hacking the Pedelec speed limiter?

Postby cj7hawk » Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:22 pm

Comedian wrote:Anyway, I just want to make it clear.. not everyone removes the limiter so they can sit on 50. Our bike sits comfortably at 28-32 which just makes the long commute a little quicker than the previous maximum of 25.



No meaning to criticize, but everytime I hear about people with Pedelecs ( I assume that's a Bosch ) talk about those kinds of speeds, I have to laugh - that bicycle is technically a motorcycle and is illegal. There's no way to sit comfortably on 28-32 kph within the law in Australia - the legal standard for that pedelec as a test is that, with the rear wheel off the ground and the pedal turned lightly by hand, the wheel cannot turn faster than 25 kph. And it's expected to only be around 19 kph when the test is performed, as was the compliant Pedelec they used in the NSW tests.

If the motor produces ANY power, including turning the armature, over 25 kph, it's an instant failure. Even if you take into account the allowances for measurement error, 28 kph is still an instant failure.

This is exactly why we need people to push on the laws so they fix them. In the mean time, you're clearly ( and you have admitted to ) riding an unlicensed motorcycle and it's probably never occurred to you that it's not even legal to fit a Bosch kit to a bicycle in Australia, because the kit laws only allow 200W. Pedelec status is ONLY for factory made bicycles, manufactured entirely overseas, and tested on the bicycle they are fitted to.

Of course, you may have a 200W PAPC, but I'm pretty sure BOSCH doesn't yet have the technology to make a 200W PAPC go around 28~32 kph. So the only way you're going to do that speed on a legal pedelec is with the motor turned off, and you doing ALL the pedaling.

So it's actually in your own personal interest than that people do challenge and push for law reform with respect to electric bicycles. If you were in a crash, even not at fault, it would be relatively trivial for a lawyer to demonstrate you had contributory negligence for riding an unlicensed motorcycle. It's not something I'd wish to see anyone from this forum face.

As for how much power you can get from a BOSCH motor? Sure, the cut-off speed is often set to 50 kph... But even this can be bypassed and in some cases a Bosch equipped bike could go faster on motor alone!

The only thing that will determine the top speed under tuning is the back-EMF on the motor and the power supply voltage. Nothing else determines top-speed in an e-bike. This being the case, and Bosch being mid-drive systems, I'm pretty sure 50kph is quite a reasonable claim for a Bosch..... But hey, people are talking about it online - Not just theory, but actually riding at those kinds of speeds -

There seems to be a solid theme here of denying the possibility that the bicycles everyone loves and thought would replace the frankenbikes are, in fact, frankenbikes in the thin disguise of detuned bicycles that are easily reverted to their monster form. Given the Bosch is a mid-drive, and so can take advantage of the gearing capabilities of the bicycle, I'd suggest we've found Frankbikes' monster. Might the NSW police one day start to notice, I'm pretty sure the anti-frankenbike squads that were once encouraged to kill the petrol monsters might take up their pitchforks against the e-bikes that are so easily tuned to high speeds.

Pretending that these new generation frankenbikes can't possibly exist isn't going to stop that - Convincing the villagers that the monsters they once feared are actually friendly and will harm no-one is the only way.

But, as an engineer, if I had a Bosch mid-drive and I was asked to modify it, I'm reasonably confident I could exceed 50 kph.

I know I could do it on a cheap chinese 250W bicycle, and people actually do achieve this.... I doubt very much that the engineering on a Bosch is in any way inferior to these cheap chinese knockoffs.

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Re: Hacking the Pedelec speed limiter?

Postby g-boaf » Sun Mar 26, 2017 1:34 pm

Interesting topic, I had someone on a pretty nice Cannondale MTB today sticking with me... The little extra bit near the bottom bracket was the give away, the electric assistance fitted to it. Here I am going up some moderate hills at 35km/h and this machine was staying with me.

And at one point doing 55km/h on a slight downhill. I ended up letting him go past for a while, and for interest, overtook him again on some false-flat sections, holding 450-500w and doing up to 45km/h.

No idea if this thing is legal or not, but fast it certainly was. He reckoned the thing could do 80... Which in my view is just way too fast for most places, excepting maybe open roads with no side streets, no risks of pedestrians, etc.

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Re: Hacking the Pedelec speed limiter?

Postby Thoglette » Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:38 pm

cj7hawk wrote:Pretending that these new generation frankenbikes can't possibly exist isn't going to stop that - Convincing the villagers that the monsters they once feared are actually friendly and will harm no-one is the only way.


Ah, no. Just as I can't ride around with open pipes dripping unburnt fuel in my car or motorbike* there is no logic in suggesting that unlicensed motorbikes, electric or otherwise, have a natural place on shared paths. Especially when travelling north of 50kph


* with the very visible exception of a particular brand of American motorbike, which appears to be completely invisible and inaudible to the thin blue line.
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cj7hawk
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Re: Hacking the Pedelec speed limiter?

Postby cj7hawk » Mon Mar 27, 2017 1:48 pm

Thoglette wrote:
cj7hawk wrote:Pretending that these new generation frankenbikes can't possibly exist isn't going to stop that - Convincing the villagers that the monsters they once feared are actually friendly and will harm no-one is the only way.


Ah, no. Just as I can't ride around with open pipes dripping unburnt fuel in my car or motorbike* there is no logic in suggesting that unlicensed motorbikes, electric or otherwise, have a natural place on shared paths. Especially when travelling north of 50kph


* with the very visible exception of a particular brand of American motorbike, which appears to be completely invisible and inaudible to the thin blue line.


Ahh, well, that much I agree with. Regardless of how it is powered, 50 kph is way too fast for safe travel on bike paths. Some would bear 30 to 40kph in places, but again, wouldn't even handle 15kph safely in others. It's just a matter of time before someone is killed on bike paths too, given some of the riders.

But if the bike was being ridden safely and at reasonable speeds, does it really matter what speed it is capable of?

It says something that these monsters are already on our paths, and we've seen them doing crazy speeds, yet collisions are rather rare, injured people more so, and no deaths recorded.

Having an accident on a bicycle at speed is possibly as dangerous to the rider as it is to the pedestrian, and at 40 kph - quite fast on a path, death isn't all that likely even in a head-on with another bike.

That changes at bit at 50 though.

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Re: Hacking the Pedelec speed limiter?

Postby Comedian » Mon Mar 27, 2017 2:06 pm

cj7hawk wrote:Having an accident on a bicycle at speed is possibly as dangerous to the rider as it is to the pedestrian, and at 40 kph - quite fast on a path, death isn't all that likely even in a head-on with another bike.

That changes at bit at 50 though.


While we're all agreeing.. I just thought I'd pop in and reiterate that despite your assertions there is no way our upright Dutch bike with the hacked limiter is doing 50k anywhere other than down a really big hill.

I don't ride it often, but I took it into town and around last Thursday. On sport it sits a little above 30 with the user putting in moderately. At this level of assistance I had enough range to comfortably do everything I needed to do (36k all up I think).

If you put it and yourself on turbo you can get close to 40 but it just doesn't have the gearing to go any faster. That's not comfortable though for the user (spinning like a mad man) and the battery range wouldn't be sufficient for my needs.

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Re: Hacking the Pedelec speed limiter?

Postby cj7hawk » Mon Mar 27, 2017 4:11 pm

Comedian wrote:
cj7hawk wrote:Having an accident on a bicycle at speed is possibly as dangerous to the rider as it is to the pedestrian, and at 40 kph - quite fast on a path, death isn't all that likely even in a head-on with another bike.

That changes at bit at 50 though.


While we're all agreeing.. I just thought I'd pop in and reiterate that despite your assertions there is no way our upright Dutch bike with the hacked limiter is doing 50k anywhere other than down a really big hill.

I don't ride it often, but I took it into town and around last Thursday. On sport it sits a little above 30 with the user putting in moderately. At this level of assistance I had enough range to comfortably do everything I needed to do (36k all up I think).

If you put it and yourself on turbo you can get close to 40 but it just doesn't have the gearing to go any faster. That's not comfortable though for the user (spinning like a mad man) and the battery range wouldn't be sufficient for my needs.


Ahh, I must apologize as I misunderstood what you were saying. I thought you were saying that a bike with a Bosch limiter hacked couldn't do 50 - when what you were saying is that the one you have been testing *is* hacked and is only doing about 30... That would also make sense - not all changes would necessarily provide the maximum output, and gearing is still very important as you mentioned.

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Re: Hacking the Pedelec speed limiter?

Postby Comedian » Mon Mar 27, 2017 4:25 pm

cj7hawk wrote:
Comedian wrote:
cj7hawk wrote:Having an accident on a bicycle at speed is possibly as dangerous to the rider as it is to the pedestrian, and at 40 kph - quite fast on a path, death isn't all that likely even in a head-on with another bike.

That changes at bit at 50 though.


While we're all agreeing.. I just thought I'd pop in and reiterate that despite your assertions there is no way our upright Dutch bike with the hacked limiter is doing 50k anywhere other than down a really big hill.

I don't ride it often, but I took it into town and around last Thursday. On sport it sits a little above 30 with the user putting in moderately. At this level of assistance I had enough range to comfortably do everything I needed to do (36k all up I think).

If you put it and yourself on turbo you can get close to 40 but it just doesn't have the gearing to go any faster. That's not comfortable though for the user (spinning like a mad man) and the battery range wouldn't be sufficient for my needs.


Ahh, I must apologize as I misunderstood what you were saying. I thought you were saying that a bike with a Bosch limiter hacked couldn't do 50 - when what you were saying is that the one you have been testing *is* hacked and is only doing about 30... That would also make sense - not all changes would necessarily provide the maximum output, and gearing is still very important as you mentioned.


Aaaah.. IC. Yes, maybe one could.. if you put it on a light bike (maybe a road bike) and put a bigger front ring etc. But our dutch bike sure isn't doing that.

That's why I contributed.. to say that a hacked e-bike isn't necessarily a rocket ship. It is however a very pleasant ride - and one that is more functional (for our usage and conditions) than a limited one.

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