E-bikes are declared illegal to use on European roads without insurance, decides European Commission

mmgoy
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Re: E-bikes are declared illegal to use on European roads without insurance, decides European Commission

Postby mmgoy » Fri Oct 26, 2018 2:18 pm

I have no problem with insurance and rego for ebikes under a couple of conditions:
Any costs should be relative to potential risk ie rego/power is weight based so should only cost about $3, insurance likewise.
Eliminate power restrictions because ultimately everything is reduced to cost for risk (see above)
eg a sensible 1kw commuter ebike should costs next to nothing to register or insure. A 100kw race bike maybe a bit more.
At least this would open the way for more usefully powered electric vehicles. 250W is just stupid.

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Thoglette
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Re: E-bikes are declared illegal to use on European roads without insurance, decides European Commission

Postby Thoglette » Fri Oct 26, 2018 6:20 pm

mmgoy wrote:250W is
...already too much, which is why they're limited to a 25kph assist.

If you want to ride an electric motorbike or scooter, feel free to register it as such.
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mmgoy
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Re: E-bikes are declared illegal to use on European roads without insurance, decides European Commission

Postby mmgoy » Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:50 pm

Thoglette wrote:
mmgoy wrote:250W is
...already too much, which is why they're limited to a 25kph assist.

Mine isn't

If you want to ride an electric motorbike or scooter, feel free to register it as such.


You must be fun at parties...

zebee
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Re: E-bikes are declared illegal to use on European roads without insurance, decides European Commission

Postby zebee » Fri Oct 26, 2018 10:35 pm

mmgoy wrote:
Thoglette wrote:
mmgoy wrote:250W is
...already too much, which is why they're limited to a 25kph assist.

Mine isn't

If you want to ride an electric motorbike or scooter, feel free to register it as such.


You must be fun at parties...


So why don't you want to register your motorcycle and have 3rd party personal insurance on it? Why don't you want it to pass standards for brakes and lighting? Why don't you want to demonstrate you have the skills to ride it?

What are you afraid of?

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Re: E-bikes are declared illegal to use on European roads without insurance, decides European Commission

Postby biker jk » Sat Oct 27, 2018 6:07 am

Loses licence then turns bicycle into unregistered motorbike. What could go wrong?

mmgoy
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Re: E-bikes are declared illegal to use on European roads without insurance, decides European Commission

Postby mmgoy » Mon Nov 05, 2018 10:34 am

zebee wrote:So why don't you want to register your motorcycle and have 3rd party personal insurance on it? Why don't you want it to pass standards for brakes and lighting? Why don't you want to demonstrate you have the skills to ride it?


I will when ADRs catch up the currently available technology. I have no problem registering or insuring my vehicle, do you?

What are you afraid of?

You are the person living in fear. Fear of non-compliance, fear of being uninsured, fear of punitive measures by the authorities. You are reason this country has so many rules...

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Thoglette
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Re: E-bikes are declared illegal to use on European roads without insurance, decides European Commission

Postby Thoglette » Mon Nov 05, 2018 12:22 pm

mmgoy wrote:I will when ADRs catch up the currently available technology.


Pardon? The ADRs quite happily deal with both electric "scooters" (nominally limited to 50kph) and electric motorcycles (no limit).

There's no catching up required. We've been through this already.
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Re: E-bikes are declared illegal to use on European roads without insurance, decides European Commission

Postby mmgoy » Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:22 am

Thoglette wrote:
Pardon? The ADRs quite happily deal with...


You've made it clear you have don't like ebikes. Maybe go tell Alan Jones about your problems...

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Thoglette
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Re: E-bikes are declared illegal to use on European roads without insurance, decides European Commission

Postby Thoglette » Tue Nov 06, 2018 1:04 pm

mmgoy wrote:You've made it clear you have don't like ebikes. Maybe go tell Alan Jones about your problems...

To be polite: you're projecting.

I am quite happy with PACs, as defined by the current rules and quite happy with scooters and motorcycles, as defined by the current rules. I am also aware and have mentioned before that scooters are quite badly done by, as they can neither use shared paths nor freeways (in most states). And I'm pretty excited about the current crop of e-bikes (the drag bikes are simply amazing)

If you want to ride a DIY electric motorbike on the road, jump through the hoops and get it compliant. Just like the (genuine) DIY PAC people have done. I'm all for that. I reckon that's one of the most exciting areas of transport at the moment.

What I have a problem with is people coming along and complaining that it's "just not fair" that the rules say "no" to their new toy. Even more so when they bought a compliant "thing" and then modified it to not comply. I've seen it over and over again in a whole range of contexts and it's always the same old, same old.

It's particularly aggravating in this context as the rules for pedecs are set the way they are for specific reasons. Reasoning informed by about forty years of experience and study about how to design safe, human focused cities.
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Re: E-bikes are declared illegal to use on European roads without insurance, decides European Commission

Postby ironhanglider » Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:24 pm

mmgoy wrote:
zebee wrote:So why don't you want to register your motorcycle and have 3rd party personal insurance on it? Why don't you want it to pass standards for brakes and lighting? Why don't you want to demonstrate you have the skills to ride it?


I will when ADRs catch up the currently available technology. I have no problem registering or insuring my vehicle, do you?

What are you afraid of?

You are the person living in fear. Fear of non-compliance, fear of being uninsured, fear of punitive measures by the authorities. You are reason this country has so many rules...


I'm confused. You have taken a presumably compliant ebike which is non-registrable, and have modified it to turn it into a registrable vehicle. You say that you have no problem with registering it, but have made no plans to walk it to the relevant authorities to do so (or to make sure that it complies with the other requirements of registration). Of course if you do manage to further modify your machine and get it registered you can then walk it home again since by your own admission you have had the privilege of using a registered vehicle on the roads taken away from you, presumably for failing to comply with the rules of road use. BTW the insurance payable with registration is not to insure the vehicle, it is to insure against the medical expenses of your victims.


The reason why this country has so many rules is as a result of people acting unreasonably, not as the result of people who act responsibly.

It is clear that you have no problem with being unlicensed and in control of an unregistered vehicle and are not in fear of the financial and other consequences. I don't have any particular problem with it either as long as you behave responsibly.

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Re: E-bikes are declared illegal to use on European roads without insurance, decides European Commission

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:58 am

mmgoy wrote:
Thoglette wrote:
Pardon? The ADRs quite happily deal with...


You've made it clear you have don't like ebikes. Maybe go tell Alan Jones about your problems...


mmgoy, Thoglette and others are right. You are not the first to see the regs as a barrier to you getting a cheap motor bike without any of those annoying things like requiring demonstration of necessary skills, willingness to pay for the necessary safety and engineering specs, and so forth.

In general this forum does NOT dislike e-bikes or think they do not belong. But many of us do NOT accept that the world owes to those who want a cheap but inadequate solution to their transport or recreational desires a cut-price motor bike. Different forms of legal bikes cover the broad range of needs, but at a price, in dollar terms and otherwise.

Allow me to save you the trouble of classifying me as "just another e-bike hater", as you have (unfairly) of Thoglette. I initiated this "Electric Bikes" sub-forum under "Serious Biking" several years ago when the time seemed right to take them seriously and to encourage e-bikers. After all, they share common interests with the rest of us on this forum. Take note, there were no objections from other members to the formation of "Electric Bikes".

Who knows, one day I may convince my wife, who is unable to ride a regular bike, to buy a pedelec, probably the best option for her. :D So far nagging has not worked. :roll:
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mmgoy
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Re: E-bikes are declared illegal to use on European roads without insurance, decides European Commission

Postby mmgoy » Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:05 am

Thoglette wrote:If you want to ride a DIY electric motorbike on the road, jump through the hoops and get it compliant.


I am. I also have a DIY motorbike project underway...

What I have a problem with is people coming along and complaining that it's "just not fair"


I never said it wasn't fair. The current law is always a work in progress and it always lags technology, I have merely pointed this fact out.
As some examples Canada, USA and NZ have all relaxed the power/speed laws around pedelecs and just like gay marraige and decriminalisation of cannabis, Australia will catch up to other developed countries eventually.


It's particularly aggravating in this context as the rules for pedecs are set the way they are for specific reasons. Reasoning informed by about forty years of experience and study about how to design safe, human focused cities.


Ok your credibility just went out the window with this. Canberra is the only city in Australia that was planned. Sydney is a joke. They just built a new massive hospital on the North Shore but didn't provide any public transport options to get there. The first release of the new airport design has no train line, the only way to get there is by car or bus. Just this morning they had the Chief Architect for Barangaroo on the radio explaining how all the 'reasoned safe, human focused designs' was sacrificed by state gov behind closed doors for Developer profits...

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Re: E-bikes are declared illegal to use on European roads without insurance, decides European Commission

Postby mmgoy » Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:15 am

ironhanglider wrote:
It is clear that you have no problem with being unlicensed and in control of an unregistered vehicle and are not in fear of the financial and other consequences. I don't have any particular problem with it either as long as you behave responsibly.



Yeah I think the whole "unregistered motorbike" is deliberate FUD by others here for shock value, hence the reference to Alan Jones. The mod on my bike actually makes my bike safer since instead of being stuck on main roads at 25km/h, I can now do about 35-40km/h and can get out of trouble easier. I still have to pedal hard, and I am still not going any faster than a pro cyclist (I still get over taken on the flats by the lycra gang, then I catch up on the hills).

The law will catch up soon, then Alan Jones and his friends can move onto the next scary thing...

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Re: E-bikes are declared illegal to use on European roads without insurance, decides European Commission

Postby mmgoy » Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:31 am

ColinOldnCranky wrote:
You are not the first to see the regs as a barrier to you getting a cheap motor bike without any of those annoying things like requiring demonstration of necessary skills, willingness to pay for the necessary safety and engineering specs, and so forth.


My bike is actually more expensive than my current motorbike, so it's not a cost thing.
The engineering is covered, the model of my bike is legal in Canada, USA and NZ. It's built by a global manufacturer that has passed all the necessary requirements.
The skills are subjective, 30 years riding with all the necessary tests and no accidents, so I think I have that covered too.



In general this forum does NOT dislike e-bikes or think they do not belong. But many of us do NOT accept that the world owes to those who want a cheap but inadequate solution to their transport or recreational desires a cut-price motor bike. Different forms of legal bikes cover the broad range of needs, but at a price, in dollar terms and otherwise.


It's neither cheap nor inadequate and I think this is where you are making incorrect assumptions.
If the laws were changed tomorrow to align with Canada (35km/h), most of the US states (45km/h) and NZ (45km/h) this argument evaporates. Would you then change your opinion?

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Thoglette
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Re: E-bikes are declared illegal to use on European roads without insurance, decides European Commission

Postby Thoglette » Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:55 pm

mmgoy wrote:
It's particularly aggravating in this context as the rules for pedecs are set the way they are for specific reasons. Reasoning informed by about forty years of experience and study about how to design safe, human focused cities.

... how all the 'reasoned safe, human focused designs' was sacrificed by state gov behind closed doors for Developer profits...

I don't disagree with your point here, however no one will claim that Australian cities (nor Canadian nor US cities) are examples of well designed cities nor cities that focus on humans. You (mostly) have to step outside the Anglosphere to find them. E.g. Rotterdam is the poster child for a city-designed-for-cars which has been transformed back into a human focused city.

That our city design is crap does not negate the knowledge around pedestrian interaction with vehicles. Which is why sane parts of the world have speed limits of 20kph or 30kph for their shared spaces and suburban streets. The pedec regulations are designed to allow the co-existence of pedecs with current bicycles.

You keep harping on about how your modifications to your bike make it safer for use on the road with fast traffic. We've had powered-bikes-for-the-road since the 50s. It's just you've chosen to use electricity instead of petrol. There is no new technology for the laws "to catch up to".
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Re: E-bikes are declared illegal to use on European roads without insurance, decides European Commission

Postby 10speedsemiracer » Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:22 pm

+1 for what Thogz and ColinO&C have said. The issue is one of speed differential. Your home-made Tesla wannabe, although I'm sure you're taking all due care when it comes to primary safety such as brakes, has maybe 60% higher speed capability than other e-bikes and in a mixed environment of the fast and the languorous it increases the risk of collision.

Is the same reason mixed-class motor racing is more dangerous, or why Police give tickets on the Autobahn for driving too slowly. And is the root cause of many car v bicycle collisions, aside from poorly-skilled/unskilled drivers with little to no hazard perception attributes and an inability/unwillingness to concentrate.

On the road amongst cars, it's still not fast enough or visible enough to avoid the issue. On a dedicated bike path, in some contexts, it's too fast in comparison to other non-powered bikes. In a mixed environment including peds, it's way too fast and the silent running nature of the vehicle adds further to this.

Maybe dispel some of the issues here and post some detailed images of the project and the engineering, because at the moment it's all conjecture.

Personally, it sounds more electric moped than bike (I grew up in one of those countries where moped use was high) and mopeds are very heavily regulated (at least in the EU zone) in terms of who can ride one and where, and what constitutes a moped plus the mandatory licensing and insurance perspective. In some jurisdictions, the penalties for riding an uninsured/unregistered moped are (from our perspective perhaps) really hefty with very large fines and possible forfeiture of the vehicle
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Re: E-bikes are declared illegal to use on European roads without insurance, decides European Commission

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:40 pm

mmgoy wrote:The skills are subjective, 30 years riding with all the necessary tests and no accidents, so I think I have that covered too.


And yet you have lost your license. If not lack of skills then what? Bad attitude? You deciding which rules apply to you and which don't? Just plain bad luck? An enforcement that is out to get you unfairly? Putting others in danger? Sorry, I don't buy any of it.

Besides, I spoke of DEMONSTRATING skills. ie Driving test. I have been driving for a lifetime and I would probably pass a driving test if required. But it is still a burden and risk that I would rather avoid.

mmgoy wrote:If the laws were changed tomorrow to align with Canada (35km/h), most of the US states (45km/h) and NZ (45km/h) this argument evaporates. Would you then change your opinion?


That can equally demonstrate that Canada is wrong and we are right.Or that the built environment in Canada is better suited. And I'm bot sure where you get the NZ allowable speed but even if they are allowing 45kph, that does not make it good. I dare say that there is NO limit to the speed allowed in Nauru for example but what does that demonstrate? Not that any speed is appropriate there and elsewhere.

I do not disagree that there are some quirky limits which need to be looked at. But so far your arguments are only for the already-converted. And you have posted elsewhere that you are willing to play by your own rules and no-one else's, having taken a compliant bike and modifying it be non-compliant.

Hell, I think that I can drive with a few beers under the belly and it IMPROVES my driving by relaxing me. And I think that I can drive better at 130kph than the average driver doing 100kph. Ergo, I will now drive at 130kph whenever it suits me. Yay. Isn't self serving self- assessment grand. :roll:

A little respect for the thoughts of others would also not go astray here, people who have been arguing and looking at the issue of pedelecs and the limits on them for a lot longer than you have HAD to use one. Use that may be suggested by the loss of license was because you are a less than an ideal driver, withstanding your own grand self assessment.
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Re: E-bikes are declared illegal to use on European roads without insurance, decides European Commission

Postby mmgoy » Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:23 pm

Thoglette wrote: We've had powered-bikes-for-the-road since the 50s. It's just you've chosen to use electricity instead of petrol. There is no new technology for the laws "to catch up to".


Ok Tony Abbott, you've made your point clear. I thought a bike forum with a electric bike section would be a good place to talk about electric bikes, but appears to be just a bunch of angry old grannys who can't deal with the 21st century. Coal Power!!!

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Re: E-bikes are declared illegal to use on European roads without insurance, decides European Commission

Postby mmgoy » Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:25 pm

10speedsemiracer wrote: Your home-made Tesla wannabe


Thanks for the demonstration of reading comprehension, and for confirming that this forum is the wrong place for discussion of new ideas...

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Re: E-bikes are declared illegal to use on European roads without insurance, decides European Commission

Postby mmgoy » Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:29 pm

ColinOldnCranky wrote:And yet you have lost your license. If not lack of skills then what?


Bad luck. Unless you want to try and argue that current law enforcement techniques are perfect?
Don't worry about responding I won't be here to read it. This group is clearly anti new technology. Tony Abbott thanks you for your vote.

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Re: E-bikes are declared illegal to use on European roads without insurance, decides European Commission

Postby 10speedsemiracer » Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:55 pm

mmgoy wrote:
10speedsemiracer wrote: Your home-made Tesla wannabe


Thanks for the demonstration of reading comprehension, and for confirming that this forum is the wrong place for discussion of new ideas...


It was a light-hearted descriptor, not an appraisal of your design/engineering skillset.
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Re: E-bikes are declared illegal to use on European roads without insurance, decides European Commission

Postby Thoglette » Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:31 pm

mmgoy wrote: Coal Power!!!

Actually, as I was running in today I was thinking about how to mount an old toy steam engine hooked up to a hub dynamo on the back rack as a demonstration of "fair dinkum power". Along with a (very small) solar panel producing just as much electricity.

I'd have to find some coal from somewhere - the steam engine's designed to run on metho but without the stink and smut of coal the point would be mostly lost.

mmgoy wrote: I thought a bike forum with a electric bike section would be a good place to talk about electric bikes,

Happy to talk about them. You seem to want to talk about how the laws are unfair or wrong without actually providing any argument beyond a dogmatic invocation of "technology" or "it's the future" or how you find them personally inconvenient.

It is certainly true that I will object to "action for action's sake" and expect some sort of analytical criticism supporting change. But you won't find me objecting to there being a diversity of (reasoned) opinions. Nor do I expect the reason has to arrive prior to the opinion: a gut feel that clashes with the head is usually a really good clue that something needs some further thought.

Other than that, feel free to re-read what I've actually written and respond to that.
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Re: E-bikes are declared illegal to use on European roads without insurance, decides European Commission

Postby ironhanglider » Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:37 pm

My interpretation of mmgoy's machine was that he had a compliant 250W pedelec an had disabled/modified the speed sensor so that it would still offer 250W at speeds greater than 25km/h. In a sense it had exactly the same performance characteristics as a 200W ebike with a more powerful rider, which could be compliant.

My brother in law has a 250W 25km/h bike and has commented that the when the motor stops assisting it is fairly sudden and the loss of 250W makes the bike hard work at higher speeds, mainly due to its weight and upright posture. As a consequence he tends to sit at 25 km/h and only makes any effort on the hills to keep the speed up. He finds that 25km/h is slower than he wants to go when the conditions allow for it. There is no doubt that some situations on the road are more comfortable at higher speeds. Part of my regular commute involves a short stretch of road a busy road with two lanes in each direction, where I have to merge from the left and then turn right in a few hundred metres. It is downhill and if necessary I can get up to traffic speed (50-60km/h) to change lanes relatively comfortably. My BIL avoids that stretch and each of us considers that the other's route is more dangerous, and we are probably both right. I think that given the choice my BIL would now opt for a 200W bike without the speed limiter. IIRC Comedian has stated similar frustration with the limit in another thread.

However there is a difference between being frustrated by the law and complying with it, and flouting it. I have no doubt that a person could ride a 1000W ebike on shared paths safely. However it is too easy for them to be ridden unsafely and the law forbids it for good reason. The law is too blunt an instrument to specify that high powered and fast ebikes can be ridden on the roads, but only low powered ebikes can share space with pedestrians. People frequently don't get the law right as it is.


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Re: E-bikes are declared illegal to use on European roads without insurance, decides European Commission

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:59 pm

mmgoy wrote:
ColinOldnCranky wrote:And yet you have lost your license. If not lack of skills then what?


Bad luck. Unless you want to try and argue that current law enforcement techniques are perfect?
Don't worry about responding I won't be here to read it. This group is clearly anti new technology. Tony Abbott thanks you for your vote.

Imperfect law enforcement occasionally loses demerit points. To lose a license takes a lot more than that.

You seem to think this forum is against change and is anti-e-bikes. Uh uh. A quick look at the number of topics and the number of views on the e-Bikes group shows substantial numbers when compared to other groups that have been on this forum way longer.

However we ARE against vacuous non-arguments for doing your own thing and the rest of us be damned. In particular complaints put forward by those who lose their license and then expect to be able to modify and ride an inappropriate vehicle to make up for it. With the same tired old self-serving arguments that we see from time to time that is all that we are seeing from you.

Anyway, if you choose to leave then that's your loss, not ours. But pls, keep off the road, paths and shared paths with your modded vehicle and drive better when you get your license back. I've had my near death experience on the roads from a bad driver and I prefer to keep that count to one.
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Re: E-bikes are declared illegal to use on European roads without insurance, decides European Commission

Postby zebee » Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:39 pm

ironhanglider wrote:My brother in law has a 250W 25km/h bike and has commented that the when the motor stops assisting it is fairly sudden and the loss of 250W makes the bike hard work at higher speeds, mainly due to its weight and upright posture.
Cameron


I note when my e-trike cuts out but I have no real trouble doing more than 25kmh on the flat if I want to. Yeah I have to do the work, but once the motor gets me there I can do more.

I don't know if it's particular to the Bionx but I know if I have the bike on high assist then over 25kmh is harder work than if it is on low assist. So if I want to go faster I drop the assist level and get it going with leg power.

Yeah I want to go faster than 25kmh much of the time. And I can. I just don't get to do it the easy way.



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