Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

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queequeg
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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby queequeg » Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:03 pm

Bob_Hornsby wrote:Is it possible that this is the reason why (why SDR) thinks) the points are applicable ?
https://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/#/vi ... art9/sec71

If you see later on Schedule 1 (rule 67).

But again starts with: " For the purposes of section 32 (1) (a) of the Act" which again excludes non-mortised vehicles.


I'd actually go as far as saying that since a Licence is not required to ride a bicycle, the entire content of the Road Transport (Driver Licensing) Regulation 2017 is not applicable to cyclists.
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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby Bob_Hornsby » Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:09 am

queequeg wrote:
Bob_Hornsby wrote:Is it possible that this is the reason why (why SDR) thinks) the points are applicable ?
https://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/#/vi ... art9/sec71

If you see later on Schedule 1 (rule 67).

But again starts with: " For the purposes of section 32 (1) (a) of the Act" which again excludes non-mortised vehicles.


I'd actually go as far as saying that since a Licence is not required to ride a bicycle, the entire content of the Road Transport (Driver Licensing) Regulation 2017 is not applicable to cyclists.


queequeg that is an awesome argument !

Waiting for a phone call from the police (might be avoiding me :D ). Sent few letters of complaints to NSW Ministers.

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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby Bob_Hornsby » Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:40 pm

Called the police, because they did not. After 30 min of argument (he was really keen to find it out), the police officer told me that he tends to agree with me (us).
He suggested that I write to the Attorney General NSW.

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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby Bob_Hornsby » Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:32 pm

I have just received a call from Revenue NSW. They were very apologetic admitting the mistake. The points will be reinstated in this week.

I would like you to thank you all for your insightful information and suggestions, especially to queequeg,human909, bruce and trailgumby.

Cheers and conclusively, there are no demerit points for an offence on a bicycle in NSW !

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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby Leethal » Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:44 pm

Bob_Hornsby wrote:I have just received a call from Revenue NSW. They were very apologetic admitting the mistake. The points will be reinstated in this week...

Well done on your persistence, great outcome, Bob! :D
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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby Bunged Knee » Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:46 pm

Good to hear that,Bob.

But it's not good to waste the time trying to fix the mistake of incorrectly to include the demerit points for bicycle offences.
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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby human909 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:17 pm

Agreed. Well done for your persistence and the outcome.

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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby tabb » Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:41 pm

That's awesome - but what a nightmare!

Can we now start arguing over whether you actually lose demerit points or accumulate them? :wink:

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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby Bob_Hornsby » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:16 pm

Damn ! I forgot to ask Revenue NSW for a gift card or vouchers as a gesture of goodwill :)

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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby queequeg » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:17 pm

Bob_Hornsby wrote:I have just received a call from Revenue NSW. They were very apologetic admitting the mistake. The points will be reinstated in this week.

I would like you to thank you all for your insightful information and suggestions, especially to queequeg,human909, bruce and trailgumby.

Cheers and conclusively, there are no demerit points for an offence on a bicycle in NSW !


Awesome stuff.

I also just saw this posted by LACC, Which indicates that what you got ticketed for was the identical offence.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-bg ... tojzGNRy84

Apparently there is in fact another offence code for the same offence on a bicycle, but given the code is a much larger number, it sort of indicates it’s recent, but hard to know when as the fixed penalty handbooks are not publically available.

Again, good result for your persistence!
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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby mikesbytes » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:19 pm

Well done and LOL, they could of offered you free registration for your bicycle :)

Bob, could you write up a process for getting points removed from your record please, so to help others
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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby Bob_Hornsby » Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:52 pm

queequeg wrote:
Bob_Hornsby wrote:I have just received a call from Revenue NSW. They were very apologetic admitting the mistake. The points will be reinstated in this week.

I would like you to thank you all for your insightful information and suggestions, especially to queequeg,human909, bruce and trailgumby.

Cheers and conclusively, there are no demerit points for an offence on a bicycle in NSW !


Awesome stuff.

I also just saw this posted by LACC, Which indicates that what you got ticketed for was the identical offence.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-bg ... tojzGNRy84

Apparently there is in fact another offence code for the same offence on a bicycle, but given the code is a much larger number, it sort of indicates it’s recent, but hard to know when as the fixed penalty handbooks are not publically available.

Again, good result for your persistence!


Well, I contacted LACC a few days after I got the review letter from SDRO, explaining similarity of my situation. However, they never replied.

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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby Bob_Hornsby » Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:00 pm

mikesbytes wrote:Well done and LOL, they could of offered you free registration for your bicycle :)

Bob, could you write up a process for getting points removed from your record please, so to help others


mike, the gist of it is in the letter linked by LACC (courtesy by queequeg) with slight differences.

I will try to write down with some thoughts what could/can be done better in a similar situation.

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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby Bob_Hornsby » Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:44 am

Being stopped by police:
- Try to avoid police if/when possible-mitigate the risk.
I see the police doing the exact same thing in Karuah rd, 4/5 working days in a week, (but now looking from a side road :D ). I would not take my chances to be picked up again for something else at the same spot.
- When you talk to them you will be asked about your drivers licence (DL). In my case, I thought the law was passed that you have to carry an identification as a cyclist. So, I handed over my DL.
Even, if you do not have any form of identification, the police has thr right to ask you for your name and address. If you pass on the wrong details, I believe that is yet an another offence, so I won't recommend doing it.
However, I would try to suggest still not to identify yourself with a DL since by handing over some other type of identification/details, there is a higher possibility that they will make an error (with your name, address, etc).
- If you are stopped, be polite and try to quickly settle the matter. The longer you stay with them you are verbally and legal more exposed (everything is recorded and they may notice that you do not have e.g. a working bell).

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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby trailgumby » Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:26 pm

Was the fine amount changed as well?

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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby trailgumby » Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:42 pm

Bunged Knee wrote:Good to hear that,Bob.

But it's not good to waste the time trying to fix the mistake of incorrectly to include the demerit points for bicycle offences.

Er, what? :?

It would have cost him upwards of a thousand dollars in additional third party premium renewals over the next 5 years, even more for his comprehensive renewals. I'd say it was entirely worth the time to make sure this was done right.

Also worthwhile as insurance against escalated penalties for future mistakes where the consequences might be more serious.

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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby uart » Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:13 pm

trailgumby wrote:
Bunged Knee wrote:Good to hear that,Bob.

But it's not good to waste the time trying to fix the mistake of incorrectly to include the demerit points for bicycle offences.

Er, what? :?

He means that it's not good that Bob had to waste so much time and effort to fix their mistake - a mistake that shouldn't have happened in the first place. And I agree with him. :)

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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby Bob_Hornsby » Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:31 pm

trailgumby wrote:Was the fine amount changed as well?

Nope, $330 for supporting NSW toll roads :roll:

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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby find_bruce » Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:42 pm

trailgumby wrote:Was the fine amount changed as well?
Bob_Hornsby wrote:Nope, $330 for supporting NSW toll roads :roll:

Yep the fine used to be $70, but thanks to Drunken Gay & Mark Textor the on the spot penalty for not stopping at a stop sign is the same whether your vehicle is a truck, car or bicycle, because you know they all present the same risk of injury to others. :roll:

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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby Bunged Knee » Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:30 pm

uart wrote:
trailgumby wrote:
Bunged Knee wrote:Good to hear that,Bob.

But it's not good to waste the time trying to fix the mistake of incorrectly to include the demerit points for bicycle offences.

Er, what? :?

He means that it's not good that Bob had to waste so much time and effort to fix their mistake - a mistake that shouldn't have happened in the first place. And I agree with him. :)


Yes, you are correct. uart.

(AT) trailgumby, I`d agree with you of the increased 3rd party premium renewals if the points haven`t been removed. And it will give any riders more burdens of trying to remove it from their driver`s licence if it happens while cycling and wasting too much time of going backwards and forth before being remedied.
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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby ValleyForge » Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:33 pm

find_bruce wrote:Yep the fine used to be $70, but thanks to Drunken Gay & Mark Textor the on the spot penalty for not stopping at a stop sign is the same whether your vehicle is a truck, car or bicycle, because you know they all present the same risk of injury to others. :roll:

I thought Mark was a keen cyclist.
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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby find_bruce » Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:54 am

find_bruce wrote:Yep the fine used to be $70, but thanks to Drunken Gay & Mark Textor the on the spot penalty for not stopping at a stop sign is the same whether your vehicle is a truck, car or bicycle, because you know they all present the same risk of injury to others. :roll:

ValleyForge wrote:I thought Mark was a keen cyclist.

Textor wanted NSW to implement 1m passing rule & the price he was willing for cyclists to pay was massively increased fines. Guess what gets enforced.

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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby Bob_Hornsby » Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:05 am

Dealing with the penalty notice:
-once you get the penalty notice check all the details carefully. I was not much fussed about the offence code. It was likely that they could related it to an bicycle offence as well.
-Wrote a review letter, stating the safety issue for time it takes to clear the intersection after a full, uphill stop.
(It is not BS, it really does. In my daily commute I have to pass a bunch of them and obviously now I do full stop, but to start moving again in a lower gear it does take a few seconds longer to clear an intersection)
-Got rejected, wrote yet another letter stating that now for the second time they are stating the demerit points on the penalty notice and then quoted Sec.32.
-Had to decide what to do by the payment deadline. Reading your posts, I was inclined to think that regarding the offence itself, I would have a slim chance in the court, and also due to some family issues at the time I could not afford an additional stress, hoping that the matter will be put aside once I paid :).
-Than the letter came :evil: ...

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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby human909 » Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:23 am

find_bruce wrote:Textor wanted NSW to implement 1m passing rule & the price he was willing for cyclists to pay was massively increased fines. Guess what gets enforced.


Victoria did the same thing years earlier. Cyclists got even less, supportable we were going to get more respect with equality in fines!? :shock: :!: This was all encouraged by bicycle Victoria.


At a state government level Victoria seems to doing the very LEAST on cyclist matters out of all the states. But at least many of our councils, particularly the inner north of Melbourne are leading the way in cycling. Some suburbs are have cycling rates that are well past the tipping point of being a legitimate and normal mode of transport.

When you have 1 in 5 people riding to work then it is well into mainstream. Another 1.5 in 5 on trams. But of course these are just pockets of Melbourne, in the outer suburbs (like where I am currently working) cars rule.

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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby trailgumby » Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:56 pm

human909 wrote:Victoria did the same thing years earlier. Cyclists got even less, supposedly we were going to get more respect with equality in fines!? :shock: :!: This was all encouraged by bicycle Victoria.

I'm pretty sure BV (BN now) has since figured out that was a monumental screw-up on their part and a sell-out of their membership.They seem more prepared these days to challenge government orthodoxy, such as the helmet law review.

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