Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

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DrShifty
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby DrShifty » Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:39 pm

find_bruce wrote:Bit of loaded language from the NSW Traffic & Highway police - cyclists are no longer booked for not wearing a helmet - it is now a "safety helmet"


Maybe one day they'll be known as a 'fine prevention device'. :)

human909
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby human909 » Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:46 pm

Thought bubble I had.... Its a VERY tenuous link to this topic but I thought I'd share in case anybody else wanted to bite. The tenuous link is doctors, the 'experts', and their desire for their world view to be correct despite incomplete or just plain poor evidence. AKA MHLs...



"Dr Bartone said there were decades of evidence-based research to back up current healthy eating guidelines"
Click the link if you want to share in my off topic, discussion...

Yep. While I'm more in agreement with the Doctors here, but pulling out the 'we are the experts' line sounds exactly like MHL. And especially when it comes to nutrition I consider a fair bit of the medical 'evidence' about as bad as that of the MHLs. In the broader picture it is very odd how doctor's guidelines line up so neatly with traditional (as in 50 years ago) western diets as opposed to say indigenous Australian or indigenous Inuit diets.


Personally I've never heard of the TV show and only vaguely of the Aussie 'paleo pete'. I have slightly less respect for his nutritional advice than the 'doctors'.

But do I agree in stopping documentaries and viewpoints being presented simply because 'doctors' (or any other experts) disagree? That almost the situation MHLs have been in for the last 25 years....


(Yep. The modern Australian lifestyle and health is heading downhill. But that OTHER pile of evidence points much more strongly to sedentary behaviour than an imperfect diet.)

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby NASHIE » Sun Jun 03, 2018 9:44 pm

human909 wrote:(Yep. The modern Australian lifestyle and health is heading downhill. But that OTHER pile of evidence points much more strongly to sedentary behaviour than an imperfect diet.)


Yep were are hunter gatherers in make up. But now its no hunting and too much gathering. Felt so sad for a young (very overweight) kid at my youngest schools assembly on Friday who struggled to stand up 400mm high stage to accept his honour certificate. He went to hand and knees to get up, and i reckon he was about 9-10yrs old. Healthly 6yr olds didn't even notice the step. Some rich tv personality selling his BS paleo diet aint going help this kid.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby human909 » Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:06 pm

NASHIE wrote:Felt so sad for a young (very overweight) kid at my youngest schools assembly on Friday who struggled to stand up 400mm high stage to accept his honour certificate. He went to hand and knees to get up, and i reckon he was about 9-10yrs old. Healthly 6yr olds didn't even notice the step.

It must be the carbs. (kidding :wink: )
While his diet probably is bad, I'm sure you could grow a healthy kid out of it if the same child was active.

NASHIE wrote:Some rich tv personality selling his BS paleo diet aint going help this kid.

Definitely agree with that. Though I'd suggest that doctors advice regarding diets isn't helping too many people either.

My advice (that I'm sure many on this forum would concur with):
Stay active and find a way to ENJOY being active. The latter IMO is so very important, because people often stop doing things they don't enjoy.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby NASHIE » Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:43 pm

human909 wrote:While his diet probably is bad, I'm sure you could grow a healthy kid out of it if the same child was active.


Absolutely, and maybe on thread, no MHL would mean kids like him would ride to school ?. Of the approx 400 kids that attand this primary school i only see 7-10 bikes in the shed when i ride to meet my daughter to ride home. Yet being a school in an area where all the kids come from about a 1-2km radius, they must all walk you say ?. No because the Footpath is jammed with parents cars that cant be arsed educating their kids on healthy living, ie walk or ride the 300-400m to school. Yep teach your kids to drive 300m :roll: These poor kids have no hope. The bad scary people that are around every cnr to harm our kids have always been there, and i don't accept that as the reason kids are not allowed to ride or walk to school. Its just lazy PARENTING that cant be asred walking or riding with their kids to teach them healthy living.
Michael Mosley is about the only Dr on TV who manages to back healthy eating practises with real life tests to confirm or dismiss......or as much as you can in a ½hr time slot. I think he favours a fasting type diet which really gets us back to Hunter gatherers indigenous diet.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby human909 » Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:42 am

Pretty much agreed.

NASHIE wrote:Its just lazy PARENTING that cant be arsed walking or riding with their kids to teach them healthy living.

Though I'd give the parents a break here. We have societal and government backed scaremongering. We even have laws than punish parents for allowing kids to be independent. Of course there is a line between independent kids and childhood neglect but sometimes it can get ridiculous.

NASHIE wrote:Michael Mosley is about the only Dr on TV who manages to back healthy eating practises with real life tests to confirm or dismiss......or as much as you can in a ½hr time slot. I think he favours a fasting type diet which really gets us back to Hunter gatherers indigenous diet.

Don't know that one, not that any TV Dr is ideal. Though I have heard of the fasting fad. I sort of practice that myself sometime due to laziness. Also the one time I did try a fat reduction diet it was pretty much fasting plus protein. (It worked, though it was more of a personal body experiment rather than a health or vanity need. I had a tiny bit of extra fat compared to my normal zero excess, skinny default. I'm normally trying to put on muscle weight not lose it.)

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Comedian
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby Comedian » Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:42 pm

human909 wrote:My advice (that I'm sure many on this forum would concur with):
Stay active and find a way to ENJOY being active. The latter IMO is so very important, because people often stop doing things they don't enjoy.


So, I was obese 8 years ago, and well on the way to being properly obese. I lost 30kg or so and have kept it off for those 8 years. That makes me a very very rare Hooman in our society. I have achieved this by finding the activity I love through riding.

When having the uncomfortable lunch room discussions with co-workers.. I just say you need to do 1h a day of pretty intense exercise .. probably 6 days a week. Finding your 30 might be enough if you're already quite fit but if you want to reverse a lifetime of inactivity you're going to have to do better. There is no magic pill. Sorry.

Then I usually get the "but this, or that, or the other" excuse why they can't ride. I say that's fine - but you'll have to find something else then - but it might be just easier to ride to work.

Anyway.. all a bit off topic to this thread. What I do find interesting though - when you look at crowds of people in Brisbane. There are very good reasons to wear hats - yet I'd be guessing only 1 or 2 % of people actually wear one.

I know wearing a helmet isn't an imposition to a Mamil.. but if you want to get people just to ride around the local area.. it's a massive barrier. Oh well.. doubt it will ever change.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby Arbuckle23 » Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:06 am

Interesting video put up on Cycling Tips


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Ross
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby Ross » Wed Jul 25, 2018 5:38 am

Helmets don't prevent crashes and, in the event of a crash, they don't protect against most injuries. Nevertheless, here's a new method for testing if helmets might be any good at reducing concussion risks

(link to PDF - not sure if it will work)

https://t.co/GvCCJDpQUG

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby Scintilla » Wed Jul 25, 2018 6:33 pm

Arbuckle23 wrote:Interesting video put up on Cycling Tips

An excellent video!!

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby Scintilla » Wed Jul 25, 2018 6:34 pm

DrShifty wrote:
find_bruce wrote:Bit of loaded language from the NSW Traffic & Highway police - cyclists are no longer booked for not wearing a helmet - it is now a "safety helmet"


Maybe one day they'll be known as a 'fine prevention device'. :)

:D :P :twisted: :roll:

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby AUbicycles » Wed Sep 05, 2018 6:06 pm

The Tan Man has weighed in after the Geraint Thomas quote on helmets which caused a stir


[quote=Geraint Thomas]I've never ridden a bike in London, apart from in a race," said the 2018 Tour de France champion.
"I've watched from a taxi and it does seem a bit crazy. I would certainly make helmets compulsory."[/quote]

In the SBS Cycling Central opinion piece, Tan hits the nail on the head... well done:
https://www.sbs.com.au/cyclingcentral/b ... -defence-g

Anthony Tan wrote:It is not Thomas who should be pilloried but our Western World politicians who, government after government, fail to see how an insidious obesity pandemic could be reversed, if not solved, through a cycling infrastructure that encourages and supports an "everyday cycling" mentality, be it part or all of the way, and helmeted or helmet-less.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby Thoglette » Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:25 pm

Bit of a cross post but a lovely quote from an interview about the Dutch cycling experience
David Roberts wrote:David Roberts
The Dutch don’t wear bike helmets. How safe is it to ride a bike in the Netherlands?

Chris Bruntlett
We — like you — live in a place where helmets have been mandated by law, because they’ve been accepted as a commonsense safety device, normal as a seatbelt. But the Dutch show that [for them], safety in infrastructure, safety in slowing cars, and safety in numbers are all far more important than safety in body armor.

David Roberts
Yeah, the US approach seems to be to up-armor the cyclist so that cars don’t have to change.

No helmets, no problem: how the Dutch created a casual biking culture: A chat with the authors of a new book on cycling in the Netherlands.By David Roberts @drvox david@vox.com Aug 28, 2018, 2:00pm EDT

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WA State Parliment "Nanny State" Select Committee - submit before 5 Oct

Postby Thoglette » Sat Sep 22, 2018 10:05 am

I've posted about the Select Committee on Personal Choice and Safety. in the West Oz forum.

Amongst other things they are looking at "outdoor recreation such as cycling and aquatic leisure".

Submissions will be accepted until 4pm on Friday 5th October.
Stop handing them the stick! - Dave Moulton
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby hunch » Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:00 am

During the week they had this woman on the box walking out of court -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mc2jbvp4c0E

I think the charges were dangerous and neg driving, ended up with a $450 fine and suspension. Helmet fine is $319 in NSW, seems everything's a touch out of whack.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby BobtheBuilder » Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:59 am

Yeah, and the dooring fine, which can result in death is the same as the helmet fine in NSW: -

New South Wales: $319, 0 demerit points
https://www.slatergordon.com.au/blog/is ... al-offence

The website above also says this about the importance of dooring as a type of cyclist injury:

"In fact, in Victoria alone there were 494 injuries to road users due to car-dooring crashes between 2006 and 2010, of which 433 (88 per cent) were to cyclists. What’s more, these cyclist injuries represented 19.4 per cent of all cycling injuries reported to police, making it the most common crash type."

Absurd that an unproven safety device, which has as much as an 8:1 public health disbenefit, and which only affects the wearer, attracts the same penalty as an action that can result in someone else's death and is proven to result in a high rate of injury.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby fat and old » Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:08 am

Are there fat people in Amsterdam?

human909
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby human909 » Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:57 pm

fat and old wrote:Are there fat people in Amsterdam?


One of the slimmest developed nations:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... mass_index

Only marginally higher than France, Denmark, Switzerland..... South Korea and Japan are the stand outs of wealthy nations from my brief perusal.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby baabaa » Mon Sep 24, 2018 1:41 pm

More Dutch people are overweight, but most of them don’t mind
https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2018/09/m ... dont-mind/

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby fat and old » Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:53 pm

So the answer is yes?

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby Mububban » Fri Sep 28, 2018 2:00 pm

I've had two helmet-busting accidents in the last week, and my noggin is fine thanks to my helmets. One was going over the bars riding MTB, the other was knocked off my road bike by a car while commuting. One impact to each side of the skull but the helmets did their job.

Personally, I'm a fan of helmets :)
When you are driving your car, you are not stuck IN traffic - you ARE the traffic!!!

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby BobtheBuilder » Fri Sep 28, 2018 2:20 pm

Mububban wrote:Personally, I'm a fan of helmets :)


Good for you. If I drove dangerously in motor vehicles, I'd wear a helmet too, but if I was just heading out to meet friends I wouldn't - and don't.

The science is pretty clear - head injury risk is greater in motor vehicles than on bicycles.

Do you also wear a helmet when you drive?

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby Thoglette » Fri Sep 28, 2018 2:56 pm

Mububban wrote:Personally, I'm a fan of helmets :)

As am I.

But mandatory helmet laws suck, for a range of reasons outlined in this thread.

Short version: those most likely to benefit from helmets were wearing them anyway (like you) and those who wouldn't (all those people who used to ride to the shops, pub or train station) mostly just stopped riding.

Plus the anti-crowd got to call cycling "dangerous" and were given another excuse for poor driver behaviour and poor road design.

If one must* have a MHL it should be limited to riders wearing shoes with foot retention or body armour.

* after all, MHLs are more about politics than public health
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby BobtheBuilder » Fri Sep 28, 2018 4:27 pm

Thoglette wrote:* after all, MHLs are more about politics than public health


They are only about politics, the public health arguments are all well and truly against MHLs.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby DavidS » Fri Sep 28, 2018 9:43 pm

Mububban wrote:I've had two helmet-busting accidents in the last week, and my noggin is fine thanks to my helmets. One was going over the bars riding MTB, the other was knocked off my road bike by a car while commuting. One impact to each side of the skull but the helmets did their job.

Personally, I'm a fan of helmets :)


Well that's nice, but, your anecdote does not equal data.

I fail to see the relevance of this to the helmet law debate.

I understand you are a fan of helmets, does that also translate to being a fan of the law which forces everyone to wear them on a bicycle? If so, why?

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