Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thread)

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby mikesbytes » Wed Jun 26, 2013 11:23 am

One of the comments I have just read is simply rude and insulting

The intelligent thing to do is to debate the topic not the posters

Also that's the rule
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by BNA » Wed Jun 26, 2013 11:45 pm

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby citywomble » Wed Jun 26, 2013 11:45 pm

Mikesbytes said:

The intelligent thing to do is to debate the topic not the posters


I agree and funnily enough that's just what seemed to be happening until a certain person came back.

I think Baldy hit the nail on the head.

Yes and that says a lot more about you than them.

Your incredulity towards anyone who forms a different opinion on subjective matters is plain for everyone to see.

But yeah, welcome back. Let the passive aggressive sniping begin


By the way, from my observations, a disproportionate amount of cyclists do run red lights and no amount of ignoring the obvious can change that. But, there is a substantial difference between cyclists and motorists, not just vulnerability but also basic physics and the laws of conservation of momentum. Cyclists personally and physically pay to make up lost momentum, motorists only pay later at the pump.

While it is unlawful it is both understandable, the problem is not so much the cyclist as the inadequate infrastructure that favours the motor vehicle. For example, at one intersection near me the running tally (hundreds of cyclists) is 95% red light runners at the crossing. BUT, absolutely essential they do. It takes two light cycles to cross, only four bikes can wait mid way, and at peak times up to 12 cyclists per cycle - go figure.

That said there are bad eggs in both baskets.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby Percrime » Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:53 am

biker jk wrote:
So his frequent condescending tone is acceptable but when he receives some in return it's a lack of manners. Oh the double standard. :roll:


Condensation is the subtle implication that one is smarter or knows more than another. Calling someone dumb is just rude. Yes ruder is worse that subtle implication. If there is a double standard between my occasional wince at someones condensation and my downright annoyance at rudeness I dont see it. Its more of a continuum of bad behavior with one behavior being a little bad and another much worse.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby simonn » Fri Jun 28, 2013 10:30 am

Percrime wrote:Condensation is the subtle implication that one is smarter or knows more than another.


I beg to differ. I think you mean condescension.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby Xplora » Fri Jun 28, 2013 12:52 pm

simonn wrote:
Percrime wrote:Condensation is the subtle implication that one is smarter or knows more than another.


I beg to differ. I think you mean condescension.

I was rolling with it... assumed it meant "making the comment more condensed, and thereby causing offence by it" :lol:

Helmets are bad yo. Had a funny commute... 900m return to the shops on the MTB. Had the hat on... but rode the footpath on the return journey. Didn't cause any dramas. Falling onto my skull was certainly not an issue. "Riding a bike" just isn't dangerous enough to warrant it.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby high_tea » Fri Jun 28, 2013 2:27 pm

Xplora wrote:
simonn wrote:
Percrime wrote:Condensation is the subtle implication that one is smarter or knows more than another.


I beg to differ. I think you mean condescension.

I was rolling with it... assumed it meant "making the comment more condensed, and thereby causing offence by it" :lol:

Helmets are bad yo. Had a funny commute... 900m return to the shops on the MTB. Had the hat on... but rode the footpath on the return journey. Didn't cause any dramas. Falling onto my skull was certainly not an issue. "Riding a bike" just isn't dangerous enough to warrant it.


Having read this anecdote, the scales have fallen from my eyes. I shall picket Parliament House forwith!

/sarcasm
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby Mulger bill » Fri Jun 28, 2013 6:59 pm

simonn wrote:
Percrime wrote:Condensation is the subtle implication that one is smarter or knows more than another.


I beg to differ. I think you mean condescension.

$20 says Perc was typing on a mobile and got auto-corrected.
...whatever the road rules, self-preservation is the absolute priority for a cyclist when mixing it with motorised traffic.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby KenGS » Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:55 pm

simonn wrote:
Percrime wrote:Condensation is the subtle implication that one is smarter or knows more than another.


I beg to differ. I think you mean condescension.

I see nothing but irony around here :lol:
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby il padrone » Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:21 am

I don't do any ironing.... I leave that up to the missus.
Riding bikes in traffic - what seems dangerous is usually safe; what seems safe is often more dangerous.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby Percrime » Sat Jun 29, 2013 9:58 am

Heh. :oops:
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby Mulger bill » Sat Jun 29, 2013 1:02 pm

Percrime wrote:Heh. :oops:

Did I win? :D
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby Xplora » Sat Jun 29, 2013 1:29 pm

high_tea wrote:Having read this anecdote, the scales have fallen from my eyes. I shall picket Parliament House forwith!

/sarcasm

I hear there is a cream for that :mrgreen:
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby London Boy » Sun Jun 30, 2013 9:17 pm

high_tea wrote:I dunno, it seems to me that rego-for-bicycles is one of those ideas that never goes away. OTOH it never seems to be taken seriously.

As far as the cyclists-are-lawbreakers argument goes, it comes up in the context of overtaking laws or building infrastructure or something and the answer to that argument is that it's completely irrelevant.

I can understand why that certain set of ignorant and ill-informed motorists would want to see cyclists registered.

But I wonder how the quid pro quo would fly? Registering and licensing cyclists would require enforcement. That would take policemen away from enforcing the rules that apply to large fast heavy metal objects. So to make up for it, we need to find some other means of enforcement. An option would be to install cameras - speed and red light - in the same kind of density as in, for example, the UK. They pay for themselves, directly in fines, and indirectly in reduced medical and other costs.

We would all be safer.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby il padrone » Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:16 am

Not to mention the need to bump up the rego costs for motorists to pay for all this, because rego for cyclists certainly won't finance it.

:twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby Percrime » Mon Jul 01, 2013 9:53 am

Been in the UK recently? THey have way fewer camera's than here.... are way more generous in the over margins they allow, and paint the things bright yellow and put signs up.

They dont seem to stuff up as often as they do here either. Probably cos of the margins. "Sheesh ticket for 70... Ahhh well I was doing 90"

Of course when I say 'here' I mean VIctoria. A place where camera's are well on the way to outnumbering cops. And the margin allowed is 3 km And the camera,s are allowed to be placed on steep downhills.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby warthog1 » Mon Jul 01, 2013 10:57 am

Percrime wrote:
Of course when I say 'here' I mean VIctoria. A place where camera's are well on the way to outnumbering cops. And the margin allowed is 3 km And the camera,s are allowed to be placed on steep downhills.


+1 One of the first things I noticed on return to this state was the saturation advertising, TV, radio, road side billboards, attempting to legitimise these revenue raising devices.

Stupidity\incompetence are fair bigger contributor to roadway carnage than speed. Seems a bit harder to generate revenue out of policing that though :x
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby Mulger bill » Mon Jul 01, 2013 7:41 pm

Percrime wrote:Been in the UK recently? THey have way fewer camera's than here.... are way more generous in the over margins they allow, and paint the things bright yellow and put signs up.

I do believe that this is down to differing road safety attitudes. In the UK, they don't want you speeding. Here, they want to catch you speeding. Subtle but very telling.

Seems that if it can't be detected and invoiced remotely, the VicPol aint much interested :(
I note that in the latest round of "Schlock and Bore" commercials put out by the TAC that unregistered vehicles are the latest monsters of the road, would it be cynical to suggest that plod recently obtaining a camera to detect them may have a lot to do with it?
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby London Boy » Mon Jul 01, 2013 8:18 pm

Percrime wrote:Been in the UK recently? THey have way fewer camera's than here.... are way more generous in the over margins they allow, and paint the things bright yellow and put signs up.

About 6,000 cameras as at middle of last year.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby simonn » Mon Jul 01, 2013 8:23 pm

Mulger bill wrote:I note that in the latest round of "Schlock and Bore" commercials put out by the TAC that unregistered vehicles are the latest monsters of the road, would it be cynical to suggest that plod recently obtaining a camera to detect them may have a lot to do with it?


Damn right they are monsters. Unregistered = uninsured = you are [potentially in big financial trouble] if you are seriously injured by one.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby simonn » Mon Jul 01, 2013 8:26 pm

warthog1 wrote:Stupidity\incompetence are fair bigger contributor to roadway carnage than speed. Seems a bit harder to generate revenue out of policing that though :x


Speeding is stupid. Not understanding why is stupidity. Not realising you are speeding is incompetence. Just because there are other ways of demonstrating stupidity and incompetence on the road does not mean that speeding is ok.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby Mulger bill » Mon Jul 01, 2013 8:36 pm

Not arguing that point at all Simonn, just pointing out the amazing coincidence in that they are now in the top echelon of road hazards seemingly only minutes after plod get the hardware to make detection easy.

I'm quite sure that if Plod could photograph people scratching their nuts while driving that this'd instantly join the top three too. :roll:
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby il padrone » Mon Jul 01, 2013 10:56 pm

Scratching your nuts at 40kmh is embarrassing.

Scratching your nuts at 110kmh is stupid, incompetent and quite potentially life-threatening.



The SPEED does matter.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby warthog1 » Mon Jul 01, 2013 11:34 pm

How any of that correlates to the 3 kmh error vic police allow is beyond me.
Speed cameras are not going to stop the idiot travelling at a grossly inappropriate speed. What they are going to do is lighten the wallet of someone who is concentrating on the road and not the speedometer.

I've lost count of the number of fatalities I've attended on the road over the years. Very few of them have involved excessive speed, well there have been a couple of police pursuits that have ended badly. Most have involved someone not indicating their intentions, overtaking when unsafe, not giving way at intersections, not concentrating on the job at hand.
Speed is what is targeted because it is easily detected by automated devices.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby il padrone » Tue Jul 02, 2013 2:35 am

warthog1 wrote:How any of that correlates to the 3 kmh error vic police allow is beyond me.
Speed cameras are not going to stop the idiot travelling at a grossly inappropriate speed. What they are going to do is lighten the wallet of someone who is concentrating on the road and not the speedometer.


Do you live in Victoria ? Did you live in Victoria pre and post the introduction of speed cameras ?

While I agree fully with the other causes of road collisions that you identify, in the 1980s the speeds drivers drove on our roads were much higher than the legal limit. On a 60kmh road everyone drove at 70; on a 100kmh road very few drove below 110, most at 115-120. Cycling was very dangerous, the cycling death rate was much higher than today. Since the use of speed cameras (late-80s and early 90s) the adherence to speed limits by Victorian drivers has improved greatly and general road speeds are lower. This is a very good thing IMHO.

Get used to the use of speed cameras. They are a very effective way to control driver speeds. They will continue to be used. The general speed of vehicles on our roads is a major factor contributing to the cause of road collisions, and certainly worsening the severity of the resulting carnage. Anything that can bring vehicle speeds down is a good thing.


BTW, any driver who cannot concentrate on the road AND monitor their vehicle speed at the same time should not have a licence to drive. Most of us can walk and chew gum at the same time.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby simonn » Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:41 am

warthog1 wrote:How any of that correlates to the 3 kmh error vic police allow is beyond me.
Speed cameras are not going to stop the idiot travelling at a grossly inappropriate speed. What they are going to do is lighten the wallet of someone who is concentrating on the road and not the speedometer.

I've lost count of the number of fatalities I've attended on the road over the years. Very few of them have involved excessive speed, well there have been a couple of police pursuits that have ended badly. Most have involved someone not indicating their intentions, overtaking when unsafe, not giving way at intersections, not concentrating on the job at hand.
Speed is what is targeted because it is easily detected by automated devices.


Who really cares what the margin of error is? It is a maximum speed limit, not a minimum speed limit. Nothing to stop you increasing your own personal margin of error.

Excess speed makes the impact of any accidents, whatever the root cause, worse.

What is wrong with having better/cheaper enforcement for the things that are easier to enforce? "Idiot taxes" are fine by me anyway. All I have to do is follow the rules and pay less. Beauty.
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