Election time voting against mandatory helmet laws.

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Re: Election time voting against mandatory helmet laws.

Postby uncle arthur » Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:18 pm

More than 8 pages of this seemingly never ending and currently pointless argument across how many threads?? This topic =
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+

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Perhaps it's worth finally burying?
What is it with cycling? 30+ kmh and lycra???!!!
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by BNA » Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:26 pm

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Re: Election time voting against mandatory helmet laws.

Postby The Womble » Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:26 pm

damhooligan wrote:
The Womble wrote:
damhooligan wrote:withoout being pedantric a longboard is totally different then a bicycle.
getting into a accident on the 2 are so diiferent.
i assume an accident is something we don't want to have , so comparing accidents is pointless.


How would 2 head impacts at 60kph in the same part of ones skull not be the same? That was a fair point. Bike, longboard, circus clown with a bowling ball...


i said an accident between the 2 are different.
you can't compare an accident with a longboard and a bicycle and say the outcome woulld be the same.

hitting the road at 60 is not a good thing no matter what you are tavelling on.
and not to mention that the bicycle helmet is not designed to absorb impacts for that speed.
if you wanna go downhill safe you are better of wearing a motorcycle helmet.


what the post said was, if the two OUTCOMES are identical in regards to the same 60kph impact on the same part of the skull, regardless of how they got there by what ever means, then , obviously, the outcomes are of course the same. Simple point simply put
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Re: Election time voting against mandatory helmet laws.

Postby The Womble » Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:27 pm

Woof
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Re: Election time voting against mandatory helmet laws.

Postby damhooligan » Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:40 pm

The Womble wrote:
what the post said was, if the two OUTCOMES are identical in regards to the same 60kph impact on the same part of the skull, regardless of how they got there by what ever means, then , obviously, the outcomes are of course the same. Simple point simply put


there is that if again, the input is so different that it is unlikely the outcome wil be the same.
The dutch have one word to describe the aussie MHL, this word is ;
SCHIJNVEILIGHEID !!
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Re: Election time voting against mandatory helmet laws.

Postby damhooligan » Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:41 pm

The Womble wrote:Woof


miauw.... :twisted:
The dutch have one word to describe the aussie MHL, this word is ;
SCHIJNVEILIGHEID !!
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Re: Election time voting against mandatory helmet laws.

Postby jules21 » Wed Aug 18, 2010 2:14 pm

uncle arthur wrote:Perhaps it's worth finally burying?

thanks for that. let me know if you spot any other threads you think have had their day. it's appreciated :)
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Re: Election time voting against mandatory helmet laws.

Postby The Womble » Wed Aug 18, 2010 2:24 pm

jules21 wrote:
uncle arthur wrote:Perhaps it's worth finally burying?

thanks for that. let me know if you spot any other threads you think have had their day. it's appreciated :)

Zombie thread? :shock:
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Re: Election time voting against mandatory helmet laws.

Postby martinjs » Wed Aug 18, 2010 3:39 pm

Not to page 10 yet. :lol:

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Never underestimate the power of human stupidity!
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Re: Election time voting against mandatory helmet laws.

Postby il padrone » Wed Aug 18, 2010 5:10 pm

One for your edification, Martin




and there's a further study

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ES_n4DgJDHs&feature=related[/youtube]

so your answer is to ride looking like this :lol:
Riding bikes in traffic - what seems dangerous is usually safe; what seems safe is often more dangerous.
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Re: Election time voting against mandatory helmet laws.

Postby Dizz » Wed Aug 18, 2010 5:28 pm

il padrone wrote:One for your edification, Martin




and there's a further study

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ES_n4DgJDHs&feature=related[/youtube]

so your answer is to ride looking like this :lol:



Priceless.... :D :D :D :D
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Re: Election time voting against mandatory helmet laws.

Postby justD » Wed Aug 18, 2010 6:55 pm

Dizz wrote:
il padrone wrote:



Priceless.... :D :D :D :D


+1
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Re: Election time voting against mandatory helmet laws.

Postby damhooligan » Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:03 pm

uncle arthur wrote:More than 8 pages of this seemingly never ending and currently pointless argument across how many threads??
Perhaps it's worth finally burying?


Obviously you had enough ,nothing wrong with that.
But that doesn't mean we have.
Strangely enough you aply the same thought logic of some helmet users, we like the helmet so everybody must wear one.
I think this thread had it's time so let's bury it.

A good solution for you could be:
Image

This way we can stil go on and on and on, and you won't have to hear a thing.
This way we are both happy. 8)
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Re: Election time voting against mandatory helmet laws.

Postby vitualis » Thu Aug 19, 2010 7:23 am

I'm currently travelling through the Netherlands and was just in Amsterdam for about a week. Here's a photo that should make us all weep with envy:

Image

This is a multistorey parking station for bicycles next to Amsterdam Centraal (train) station. Amsterdam has about a third of the population of Sydney.

No one riding slowly on their city bikes wears helmets including children. Traffic is a much lesser problem. It took me quite a while to get used to the heavy single speed bike from the hotel with only a coaster brake but the entire experience felt very safe.

High cycling rates improve safety and I think that there is without a doubt that compulsory helmet laws retard the uptake of cycling for commuting. Someone mentioned up this thread that bike hire schemes should just hire helmets as well. This is ignoring the biggest factor that makes some of these schemes (e.g., in Paris) so successful; that there are dozens of automated (unmanned) bicycle stations throughout the city.

Interestingly enough, there were people who wore helmets in Amsterdam. Almost invariably, the rare recreational cyclist on a road bike (rather than commuting on a city bike) wore a helmet, presumably out of choice.

Regards.
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Re: Election time voting against mandatory helmet laws.

Postby TheSkyMovesSideways » Thu Aug 19, 2010 10:02 am

[Edit: Whoops, there's 3 pages I missed since the post I replied to. Oh well, some on-topic discussion couldn't hurt. :D]

steveagle wrote:I have a question which i havent given much thought but ill ask anyways. Hearing people refer to compulsory seatbelts as an argument for mandatory bicycle helmets, what about motorbikes? Helmets are mandatory for motorbikes and scooters, would you argue that they should be optional too?

Good question. I would still support mandatory helmets for motorcyclists while opposing them for pedal cyclists, since motorcyclists travel a lot faster and always travel in traffic mixed with cars. For pedal cyclists, however, a lot of trips would only be at slow speed (<20kph) and on paths separated from motor traffic. So while a significant proportion of bicycle trips are safe and trivial enough to not justify wearing a helmet, the same can't be said for motorcycles.

On a related note, I wouldn't support mandatory leathers for motorcyclists, because they're not really essential for a significant proportion of motorcycle trips. If you're sticking to 60kph roads, they're probably unnecessary, while on 110kph highways, I'm sure they're more important. And I don't think the fact that they're important when travelling at 110kph is enough to justify mandating them for the people riding on 60kph roads.
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Re: Election time voting against mandatory helmet laws.

Postby jules21 » Thu Aug 19, 2010 10:20 am

vitualis wrote: It took me quite a while to get used to the heavy single speed bike from the hotel with only a coaster brake but the entire experience felt very safe.

this might be sacrilegious, but that worries me. i've been to amsterdam as well and from the bits i remember, everyone cycles around very casually and slowly on their heavy bikes. i think there's an assumption by many bike enthusiasts that this is some sort of nirvana, while i'm more uncertain. it's arguably incompatible with the 'lycra clad' view of cycling, which allows for higher speeds and the pursuit of fitness (while commuting).

i commute on the Capital City Trail. i dread to think what it would be like, flooded with amsterdam-type bikes. ok, obviously you would expect facitilies to improve, but i am already annoyed by the existing crop of "i'm on a bike, i'll ride at my own speed, through red lights, turn without looking" brigade. do we really want more of them? think carefully :)
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Re: Election time voting against mandatory helmet laws.

Postby il padrone » Thu Aug 19, 2010 10:40 am

jules21 wrote:
vitualis wrote: It took me quite a while to get used to the heavy single speed bike from the hotel with only a coaster brake but the entire experience felt very safe.

this might be sacrilegious, but that worries me. i've been to amsterdam as well and from the bits i remember, everyone cycles around very casually and slowly on their heavy bikes. i think there's an assumption by many bike enthusiasts that this is some sort of nirvana, while i'm more uncertain. it's arguably incompatible with the 'lycra clad' view of cycling, which allows for higher speeds and the pursuit of fitness (while commuting).


:P :P
jules21 wrote:i commute on the Capital City Trail. i dread to think what it would be like, flooded with amsterdam-type bikes. ok, obviously you would expect facitilies to improve, but i am already annoyed by the existing crop of "i'm on a bike, i'll ride at my own speed, through red lights, turn without looking" brigade. do we really want more of them?

More room 'cos the street is yours



In the 1950s the Netherlands had even more cyclists (as did Australia, but not quite this many) and cyclists moved quickly enough

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HgLqts3qJs&NR=1&feature=fvwp[/youtube]

What will it be like? Much safer to begin with. The Dutch cycle death rate per million kilometres is less than 1/3 of that for the UK and about 1/10 of that in the USA. Don't know about Australia as we don't keep records or estimates of kilometres travelled per cyclist.

Fitness? Dutch people are far fitter than Australians on average, in contrast to our past reputation, because they are so much more active in their normal transport activities.
Riding bikes in traffic - what seems dangerous is usually safe; what seems safe is often more dangerous.
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Re: Election time voting against mandatory helmet laws.

Postby biker jk » Thu Aug 19, 2010 11:20 am

il padrone wrote:Not really so sure what these 'outlandish claims' were. However if you want some data on the reduction in bicycle use with helmet compulsion, look here

Image

Just one piece of data graphed from that site, but please read more of it, and tell us where it is incorrect.

Cheers
Pete


So you have shifted your argument fom the numbers cycling to the % cycling?

Well, it doesn't look like the mandatory helmet laws reduced the numbers cycling to work in Melbourne. There were 13,058 cycling trips to work in Melbourne in 1986 and 13,759 in 1991, a small dip to 12,328 in 1996 then 15,244 in 2001. The mode share has fluctuated between 1% and 1.3% between 1976 and 200. It didn't fall in 1991 but actually rose to 1.26% from 1.22% in 1986 (remember the crude oil price more than doubled in 1990 and Victoria experienced a very deep recession). The cycling mode share in 2001 was higher than in 1976.
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Re: Election time voting against mandatory helmet laws.

Postby The Womble » Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:22 pm

You had to get them going again didnt you Jules? Helmets arent going anywhere
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Re: Election time voting against mandatory helmet laws.

Postby casual_cyclist » Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:59 pm

The Womble wrote:You had to get them going again didnt you Jules? Helmets arent going anywhere

Neither are helmet threads :P
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Re: Election time voting against mandatory helmet laws.

Postby mikedufty » Thu Aug 19, 2010 2:08 pm

I may have missed it, but is there any mention in this thread of any political parties/candidates with an anti compulsory helmets policy?
Is it even a federal election issue, or are the helmet laws state based?
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Re: Election time voting against mandatory helmet laws.

Postby The Womble » Thu Aug 19, 2010 2:12 pm

casual_cyclist wrote:
The Womble wrote:You had to get them going again didnt you Jules? Helmets arent going anywhere

Neither are helmet threads :P

Muppet :mrgreen:
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Re: Election time voting against mandatory helmet laws.

Postby il padrone » Thu Aug 19, 2010 2:34 pm

mikedufty wrote:I may have missed it, but is there any mention in this thread of any political parties/candidates with an anti compulsory helmets policy?

There is, one candidate in NSW but I think this:

Bicycles.net.au forum guidleines wrote:The following topics / content does not belong in this forum:
• Religion / Sexuality / Sex / Politics / Race & Ethnicity


probably puts it in the can. That particular candidate has other policies that make him a complete 'no go' for me.

mikedufty wrote:Is it even a federal election issue, or are the helmet laws state based?

Basically the law is state-based. Federal Govt may have some role through the National Road Rules model.
Riding bikes in traffic - what seems dangerous is usually safe; what seems safe is often more dangerous.
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Re: Election time voting against mandatory helmet laws.

Postby TheSkyMovesSideways » Thu Aug 19, 2010 2:40 pm

Come on Il Padrone, I'm sure merely naming the candidate wouldn't be breaking the rules, particularly if we're not discussing his other policies.

[Edit: Nevermind, found him.]
Last edited by TheSkyMovesSideways on Thu Aug 19, 2010 2:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Election time voting against mandatory helmet laws.

Postby il padrone » Thu Aug 19, 2010 2:47 pm

OK

Glenn Deury, Senate candidate with the LDP

Active endurance cyclist, RAAM competitor (twice)
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Re: Election time voting against mandatory helmet laws.

Postby jules21 » Thu Aug 19, 2010 2:56 pm

The Womble wrote:You had to get them going again didnt you Jules? Helmets arent going anywhere

i can't help myself
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