Federal petition for

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Re: Federal petition for

Postby il padrone » Sun Aug 15, 2010 1:05 pm

martinjs wrote:Why don't a group of cyclist get together and try and get a senate seat. They have shooters party seats and other minorities have managed to get into senate and I'd believe there are more cyclist than shooters.

You are kidding aren't you? It would not be possible IMHO.

Shooters have to go through the whole licencing process and store guns correctly. It's a much more rigorous and expensive exercise than buing a bike.

There are over 150,000 people licenced to carry fire-arms in Qld. It'd be at least that many in NSW and Victoria, and they're passionate about it. At a guess, maybe a million licensed shooters in Australia :?: . There would be nothing like that number of committed commuter cyclists.
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Re: Federal petition for

Postby martinjs » Sun Aug 15, 2010 2:08 pm

il padrone wrote:
martinjs wrote:Why don't a group of cyclist get together and try and get a senate seat. They have shooters party seats and other minorities have managed to get into senate and I'd believe there are more cyclist than shooters.

You are kidding aren't you? It would not be possible IMHO.

Shooters have to go through the whole licencing process and store guns correctly. It's a much more rigorous and expensive exercise than buing a bike.

There are over 150,000 people licenced to carry fire-arms in Qld. It'd be at least that many in NSW and Victoria, and they're passionate about it. At a guess, maybe a million licensed shooters in Australia :?: . There would be nothing like that number of committed commuter cyclists.


And that is why we continue to fail,
ok I'm not sure of numbers but remember bikes are now out selling cars in Australia and there not all from people who already own and ride bikes, it is increasing but we don't have a good voice and until we do, things wont change very fast.

Debating issues on the forum may be good for the soul but it doesn't make thinks happen.

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Re: Federal petition for

Postby The Womble » Sun Aug 15, 2010 2:20 pm

Whats with you and commuter cyling parodne huh? HUH? id like to actually know what the percentages are for the different cycling groups during the working week and the weekend too out of interest. Could come in very handy
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Re: Federal petition for

Postby The Womble » Sun Aug 15, 2010 2:26 pm

And that is why we continue to fail,
ok I'm not sure of numbers but remember bikes are now out selling cars in Australia and there not all from people who already own and ride bikes, it is increasing but we don't have a good voice and until we do, things wont change very fast.

Debating issues on the forum may be good for the soul but it doesn't make thinks happen.

That is why I started this thread. Im looking to lobby, or start a group to lobby at both the state and federal levels, as there is no end result from debating on forums, and there are obviously enough of us eager to see things change.
Im sick of waiting for nothing to happen
This thread seeks to highlight those changes that we can ACTIVELY pursue in the short to medium term
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Re: Federal petition for

Postby il padrone » Sun Aug 15, 2010 2:49 pm

martinjs wrote:Debating issues on the forum may be good for the soul but it doesn't make thinks happen.

Fine! Pay yor money and register the party. It's pretty easy, there's all sorts of whacko 'political parties' out there. The Australian Sex Party for god's sake - at least they've got a lot of users :lol:

Great slogan opportunity - "Join the sex party, cum on, you know you want to!" :lol: :lol:

I just don't tink there's a big enough committed number of dedicated (enthusiast/commuter) cyclists to form a financing/suppport base for a Cyclist Party. But, go ahead, prove me wrong. :wink:
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Re: Federal petition for

Postby martinjs » Sun Aug 15, 2010 2:55 pm

The Womble wrote:And that is why we continue to fail,
ok I'm not sure of numbers but remember bikes are now out selling cars in Australia and there not all from people who already own and ride bikes, it is increasing but we don't have a good voice and until we do, things wont change very fast.

Debating issues on the forum may be good for the soul but it doesn't make thinks happen.

That is why I started this thread. Im looking to lobby, or start a group to lobby at both the state and federal levels, as there is no end result from debating on forums, and there are obviously enough of us eager to see things change.
Im sick of waiting for nothing to happen
This thread seeks to highlight those changes that we can ACTIVELY pursue in the short to medium term


Yes I see your point, but I don't believe it will start here. We need all the state organisations working together, not to mention the different groups.
It seems to me that organisations that look after commuters, road racers, bmx, mountain bikes and track racers only to mention a few (not talking about individuals on this forum) are all out there trying to push there own agendas not realising we are all in the same boat. They have to work together and it will make a difference.

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Re: Federal petition for

Postby il padrone » Sun Aug 15, 2010 3:03 pm

The Womble wrote:That is why I started this thread. Im looking to lobby, or start a group to lobby at both the state and federal levels, as there is no end result from debating on forums, and there are obviously enough of us eager to see things change.
Im sick of waiting for nothing to happen
This thread seeks to highlight those changes that we can ACTIVELY pursue in the short to medium term

That's fine. I reckon this is do-able, but preferably with an existing national and state body, rather than forming yet another splinter group, like AGF has become. Lobbying activities to facilitate change is a great thing to do if done in sync with other lobby groups.

There's the challenge with BV to start with. They are very reluctant to rub government the wrong way, so only bring in politically acceptable change and have backed down on so much.

However I don't see the formation of a political party as very feasible nor effective. Keep your powder dry until we have something approaching a '15% commuter trips by bike' sort of level of bike use. Even then such a party is questionable as cyclists will all have varied political affiliations for all sorts of reasons.
Last edited by il padrone on Sun Aug 15, 2010 3:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Federal petition for

Postby The Womble » Sun Aug 15, 2010 3:06 pm

I beg to differ, and where you have the right to your opinion, I have the right to 5000+ more :mrgreen:
Seriously though, this is how I got the 1 metre petition up and running. True, getting something organised a t a federal level will be a tad more dificult, but I dont plan on excluding any cycling group from the process. But giving up before we have some ideas worth presenting would just mean me having to go it alone. Id rather that didnt happen. And Ive already got the runs on the board and am serious about doing it again. Can you imagine a federal petion with 500,000+ signatures?or the same at state level in ALL states after we know what we need to petition for? And theres the media coverage that goes with that as well, both domestically and internationally!
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Re: Federal petition for

Postby The Womble » Sun Aug 15, 2010 3:09 pm

I fully intend to approach the AGF in due course, who also have large corporate backing if we are lucky enough to gain their support again, plus cycling clubs of all sorts and BUGs as well... Again
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Re: Federal petition for

Postby The Womble » Sun Aug 15, 2010 3:10 pm

The 'opinion' post was for Matinjs BTW :)
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Re: Federal petition for

Postby martinjs » Sun Aug 15, 2010 3:13 pm

I too have spent time working with lobby groups, apparently research shows one large partition is much easier to over look than lots of small ones.
Eg. Pollie or such gets 1 incoming document with 500,000 sigs on or Pollie gets 500,000 separate documents across there desk.
When I was an active member of MRAA in Victoria that's how we did it and over the years they (working with other Motor Cycling groups) successfully change both state and federal laws.
The key was working together and getting members fired up starting with something they all believed in.

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Re: Federal petition for

Postby il padrone » Sun Aug 15, 2010 3:16 pm

The Womble wrote:Whats with you and commuter cyling parodne huh? HUH? id like to actually know what the percentages are for the different cycling groups during the working week and the weekend too out of interest. Could come in very handy

I cycle on the weekend too, but commuter or transport cycling is what will bring ordinary folks out on their bikes in larger numbers. People just using bikes, not necessarily being enthusiasts. POBs rather than cyclists.

Transport cycling for a host of different purposes, is the type of cycling that makes the biggest difference to motor vehicle numbers on the roads. Most weekend riders go out in the car to get to their riding destination. Many weekend riders are also commuters, of course. For sure their opinions and lobbying power is important as well. I don't wish to exclude them at all.
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Re: Federal petition for

Postby il padrone » Sun Aug 15, 2010 3:22 pm

martinjs wrote:I too have spent time working with lobby groups, apparently research shows one large partition is much easier to over look than lots of small ones.
Eg. Pollie or such gets 1 incoming document with 500,000 sigs on or Pollie gets 500,000 separate documents across there desk.

Yep, in the political representative's world, one petition of 500,000 signatures counts as one item of correspondence. However 500,000 letters received, even if they're form letters, counts as 500,000 items of correspondence. Which type of electoral lobbying gets more notice by MPs ?

This should not be ignored. One reason why I now refuse to sign petitions, even if they matter to me. If they really matter I'll send a letter or email instead.
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Re: Federal petition for

Postby The Womble » Sun Aug 15, 2010 4:02 pm

il padrone wrote:
martinjs wrote:I too have spent time working with lobby groups, apparently research shows one large partition is much easier to over look than lots of small ones.
Eg. Pollie or such gets 1 incoming document with 500,000 sigs on or Pollie gets 500,000 separate documents across there desk.

Yep, in the political representative's world, one petition of 500,000 signatures counts as one item of correspondence. However 500,000 letters received, even if they're form letters, counts as 500,000 items of correspondence. Which type of electoral lobbying gets more notice by MPs ?

This should not be ignored. One reason why I now refuse to sign petitions, even if they matter to me. If they really matter I'll send a letter or email instead.

It seems you missed the point I made about the media coverage that the next action will be gaining, so it will not simply be a piece of paper slid onto the desk that only those who have signed are ever aware of. In addition to that fact, there are also many personalities that I have had the good fortune to cross paths with who would hopefully also be prepared to lend their conciderable weight to this once launched.
I think you are grossly misunderstang the scope and scale of the whoile excercise.
I do sincerely hope that the opinions and rhetoric dont lead this thread into the forum void of nothingness, particularly when it has already been taken from cycling related issues, to the merits of lobbying, or more to the point, the futility of it
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Re: Federal petition for

Postby il padrone » Sun Aug 15, 2010 4:08 pm

I'll spell it out more clearly. I believe an email or hard copy form letter distributed as widely as possible, with your celebrities to help that and ensure people send it in, would be far more effective in garnering political (MP and party) support.

A petition, no matter how big, or how well publicized, only counts as one item.

However if you did the petition alongside the large letter mail-in, or if the petition was via an election (like with 1983's 'no dams') you will have impact. Damn, the lead-time is a touch short for the next election :(

Good luck with it whatever you decide to do. If a form letter ensues you can send me one.
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Re: Federal petition for

Postby The Womble » Sun Aug 15, 2010 5:41 pm

il padrone wrote:I'll spell it out more clearly. I believe an email or hard copy form letter distributed as widely as possible, with your celebrities to help that and ensure people send it in, would be far more effective in garnering political (MP and party) support.

A petition, no matter how big, or how well publicized, only counts as one item.

However if you did the petition alongside the large letter mail-in, or if the petition was via an election (like with 1983's 'no dams') you will have impact. Damn, the lead-time is a touch short for the next election :(

Good luck with it whatever you decide to do. If a form letter ensues you can send me one.


Not that Im discounting the impact that a petition in conjunction with publicity can and IMO would have, the option of a separate letter to your Federal/State Transport Minister sounds very attractive.
I have been thinking, while cleaning the garage ( :mrgreen: pat pat) that a generic letter on a campaign letterhead, individually signed and paid for - say $3.00 to cover printing, postage to the signatories address, and on to their chosen target would be my preferred way of getting these letters out.
Thoughts?
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Re: Federal petition for

Postby Thoglette » Sun Aug 15, 2010 5:43 pm

jules21 wrote:
trailgumby wrote:1: Remove the import duty exemption for all 4WD SUVs and substitute a rebate for demonstrated primary purpose usage in primary activity. That'll keep the farmers happy - better resale value. ;)
2: +1 to the vulnerable road users law - introduce to Australian Road Rules to put pressure on States to follwo suit
3: Reintroduce indexing for federal fuel taxes
4: Introduce congestion taxes for entry into the CBD of State capitals (probably out of scope for Federal jurisdiction)


1. has basically been done - they were reducing it down to car levels, not sure if it's there yet but the difference is now small.
3. there is GST which is effectively indexed, but yeah the 38 cent excise is fixed so it loses ground
4. they should just introduce road user charging as per Henry Tax Review recommendation - go the whole hog


5. Annual registration and stamp dutie based on axle weight, width, height vs passenger numbers. Kei cars are free. (Serious businesses will either adapt or pass on the costs)
6. $5 a tonne on carbon. It's a wedge.
7. Move suburban road and freeway funding to bicycle and light rail infrstructure
8.a) Feed light rail and bicycle infrastructue contracts to road construction companies,
b) Let the MRD run the rail system. Move all non-techincal staff in the various state rail bodies to freeway planning dept. Tie freeway funding to sale of state utilities.
These instantly fixing both the political problems and practical (in that order:-)) with proposal 7.
9. Truth-in-pricing cost-of-disposal levee. First cab off the rank is glass container "deposit" scheme, second is batteries and industrial chemicals.
10. allow builder to get out of the minimum-car-bays by provision of other factilities and/or payment of levy to public transport support funds (eg. Perth CAT scheme)
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Re: Federal petition for

Postby Parrott » Sun Aug 15, 2010 6:05 pm

Very citycentric policy. What about us rural people who use their 4wd for the purpose it was designed. There is an awful lot of Aus that is serviced by a dirt road network
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Re: Federal petition for

Postby il padrone » Sun Aug 15, 2010 6:17 pm

Parrott wrote:Very citycentric policy. What about us rural people who use their 4wd for the purpose it was designed. There is an awful lot of Aus that is serviced by a dirt road network

Hmmm, whatever did we do to travel the bush roads in the pre-4WD Age (1950-70s) ?

Oh yeah! :P

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Re: Federal petition for

Postby The Womble » Sun Aug 15, 2010 6:31 pm

The Womble wrote:
il padrone wrote:I'll spell it out more clearly. I believe an email or hard copy form letter distributed as widely as possible, with your celebrities to help that and ensure people send it in, would be far more effective in garnering political (MP and party) support.

A petition, no matter how big, or how well publicized, only counts as one item.

However if you did the petition alongside the large letter mail-in, or if the petition was via an election (like with 1983's 'no dams') you will have impact. Damn, the lead-time is a touch short for the next election :(

Good luck with it whatever you decide to do. If a form letter ensues you can send me one.


Not that Im discounting the impact that a petition in conjunction with publicity can and IMO would have, the option of a separate letter to your Federal/State Transport Minister sounds very attractive.
I have been thinking, while cleaning the garage ( :mrgreen: pat pat) that a generic letter on a campaign letterhead, individually signed and paid for - say $3.00 to cover printing, postage to the signatories address, and on to their chosen target would be my preferred way of getting these letters out.
Thoughts?


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Re: Federal petition for

Postby il padrone » Sun Aug 15, 2010 6:35 pm

Good idea. Who pays the $3 ?

Probably best to let people put the stamp on themselves - part of the indication to MP's offices of an independent decision being taken.
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Re: Federal petition for

Postby Parrott » Sun Aug 15, 2010 6:41 pm

il padrone wrote:
Parrott wrote:Very citycentric policy. What about us rural people who use their 4wd for the purpose it was designed. There is an awful lot of Aus that is serviced by a dirt road network

Hmmm, whatever did we do to travel the bush roads in the pre-4WD Age (1950-70s) ?

Oh yeah! :P

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Re: Federal petition for

Postby il padrone » Sun Aug 15, 2010 6:46 pm

Well actually I did see people doing just that at Coward Springs. And a colleague of mine some 15 years ago took an RACV outback Tagaglong Tour, travelling with family in a 1990ish commodore, to even more remote regions. Everyone else used 4WD. He was fine People really do overplay the horrors of dirt roads.

But if it pleases you we can exempt people with a bona fide address and garaging the 4WD in the designated Federal Taxation Remote Area ie. the true outback.

Sad to say 90% of country folks with good roads and services might miss out.
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Re: Federal petition for

Postby ruscook » Sun Aug 15, 2010 6:59 pm

il padrone wrote:
martinjs wrote:Why don't a group of cyclist get together and try and get a senate seat. They have shooters party seats and other minorities have managed to get into senate and I'd believe there are more cyclist than shooters.

You are kidding aren't you? It would not be possible IMHO.

Shooters have to go through the whole licencing process and store guns correctly. It's a much more rigorous and expensive exercise than buing a bike.

There are over 150,000 people licenced to carry fire-arms in Qld. It'd be at least that many in NSW and Victoria, and they're passionate about it. At a guess, maybe a million licensed shooters in Australia :?: . There would be nothing like that number of committed commuter cyclists.

Martin has a good point. One of the things motorbikers bitch about is how organised the cycling lobby is and how much money (comparatively) they get from gov't. So while not necessarily directly comparable to the gun lobby, it still seems a very valid option to pursue.

Russ
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Re: Federal petition for

Postby Parrott » Sun Aug 15, 2010 7:00 pm

Well I lived in Alice for 15 years and commodores can travel dirt roads in the dry but they don't last long. I use my patrol to tow and get off the beaten track a prius or smart car ain't going to cut it. I am glad the rules are as they are and hope they don't change soon.

I can accept that soccer mums are pest in the city and they are disliked on the 4wd forums also. I hope our family is not forced to stop something we enjoy because of city peoples wants.
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