Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)
- g-boaf
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)
Postby g-boaf » Thu Aug 31, 2017 1:18 am
What makes it much better to ride here (as opposed to Sydney) is that you have extensive options in terms of bike lanes, bike paths, roads, etc and the traffic is so nice. They are excellent. You will get some closer passes, but it isn't done with malice, they are just going past you and not deliberately trying to run you off the road. If the conditions are a bit uncertain,they wait. It's nice.
Getting rid of helmet laws seems to be the easy fix, but I don't think that's going to change anything unless driving culture changes, along with the infrastructure upgrades. That's the biggest thing in Innsbruck - the infrastructure is superb. The traffic is also fairly relaxed and not rushed.
We witnessed a lady crash her little mini SUV into the back of a DB Schenker truck, within about 5-10min someone arrived on bicycle (probably a relative) to assist her while the Polizei was there helping to sort things out.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)
Postby Cyclophiliac » Thu Aug 31, 2017 7:21 am
I noticed the same during a late June to early July cycling trip in Italy and France, and a previous France cycling trip in September last year: I never felt threatened on the roads like I do here, and I was just accepted as another valid road user. Australia has a lot to learn (but will our government ever learn? Probably not).g-boaf wrote:I'm in Innsbruck at the moment and riding there. There are a lot of people riding all kinds of bikes, some on road bikes and riding as for racing/sport, others just commuting about, riding for enjoyment, etc. Seems to be a mix of some with helmets and others without. It's not markedly one way or the other.
What makes it much better to ride here (as opposed to Sydney) is that you have extensive options in terms of bike lanes, bike paths, roads, etc and the traffic is so nice. They are excellent. You will get some closer passes, but it isn't done with malice, they are just going past you and not deliberately trying to run you off the road. If the conditions are a bit uncertain,they wait. It's nice.
Getting rid of helmet laws seems to be the easy fix, but I don't think that's going to change anything unless driving culture changes, along with the infrastructure upgrades. That's the biggest thing in Innsbruck - the infrastructure is superb. The traffic is also fairly relaxed and not rushed.
We witnessed a lady crash her little mini SUV into the back of a DB Schenker truck, within about 5-10min someone arrived on bicycle (probably a relative) to assist her while the Polizei was there helping to sort things out.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)
Postby g-boaf » Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:18 pm
And I'm loving the bike lanes everywhere, and bike paths too. That's great. That makes it super easy to get around, but even the roads are great too. Even out of town on some busy roads, the riding is good.
From my initial bad experience on arrival, it's all good now and I'm starting to love this place. And almost rode into Italy as well, went quite close to that.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)
Postby 1Rowdy1 » Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:31 am
Yet car's account for way more than 1/2 the traffic on the roads, so head injuries are under represented in car occupants.DavidS wrote:Yep, love that argument that helmets, or even helmet laws, save thousands of lives, pure speculation. People can wear them when they want to, many riders would still wear helmets, especially those more at risk such as cyclists riding at speed in groups or those on mountain trails. As an adult I don't need to be saved from myself.bychosis wrote:Only, saving people from themselves. by making everyone wear a plastic bucket on their noggin they obviously prevent thousands of head injuries presenting to Emergency. Saves a crap load of money doesn't it?human909 wrote:A totally unrelated article but with a completely relevant title:
How to solve 1000s of crimes with a stroke of a pen
To bring it back to topic. What is currently being gained by fining people for riding without helmets? Where is the benefit?
If the problem is that the roads are not safe enough for one category of road vehicle, namely bicycles, then the roads need to be improved rather than imposing a safety device of dubious utility in an accident with over a tonne of car.
As for the assertion that this saves a crap load of money, that argument might have some credibility if not for:
If saving money in our health system was really a factor then cyclists would be well down the list of those who need safety equipment, many more occupants of motor vehicles suffer head injuries than cyclists.
I am constantly amazed at the calibre of argument in favour of MHLs, and I still can't understand why cyclists want to discourage cycling, especially when there is evidence that more cyclists on the road is safer for cyclists.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)
Postby warthog1 » Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:36 pm
https://www.bicyclenetwork.com.au/our-c ... on6.com.au
A survey on attitudes toward the MHL (that they currently support)
I politely informed them in one of the comment boxes that I was not a member (and would not be) due to their stance on MHLs.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)
Postby Arbuckle23 » Fri Sep 01, 2017 3:10 pm
And for the record it was a firm no for MHL
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)
Postby Thoglette » Fri Sep 01, 2017 4:12 pm
Rowdy1Rowdy1 wrote:Yet car's account for way more than 1/2 the traffic on the roads, so head injuries are under represented in car occupants.
that's ALL head injuries, not just the traffic related ones. It's THE #1 place that head injury protection is needed
"People are worthy of respect, ideas are not." Peter Ellerton, UQ
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)
Postby uart » Fri Sep 01, 2017 5:50 pm
Hey, I'm more concerned about the fact that he's ridding a fixie with no front brake than his lack of helmet.DavidS wrote: As for the assertion that this saves a crap load of money, that argument might have some credibility if not for:
DS
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)
Postby 1Rowdy1 » Sun Sep 03, 2017 3:35 pm
That makes more sense, I should read properly before replying.Thoglette wrote:Rowdy1Rowdy1 wrote:Yet car's account for way more than 1/2 the traffic on the roads, so head injuries are under represented in car occupants.
that's ALL head injuries, not just the traffic related ones. It's THE #1 place that head injury protection is needed
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)
Postby DavidS » Sun Sep 03, 2017 6:20 pm
Yep, I got that too - another response firmly in the repeal the silly law category.warthog1 wrote:This popped up in my email today
https://www.bicyclenetwork.com.au/our-c ... on6.com.au
A survey on attitudes toward the MHL (that they currently support)
I politely informed them in one of the comment boxes that I was not a member (and would not be) due to their stance on MHLs.
Why would cycling advocates want to support such a restrictive law? Maybe I should start campaigning for a more extreme position, we should ban bicycle helmets, might position the "helmets should be optional" position as the centre ground .
DS
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)
Postby warthog1 » Sun Sep 03, 2017 8:51 pm
You would hope they are enlightened as to the opinion on that stance after the surveyDavidS wrote:Yep, I got that too - another response firmly in the repeal the silly law category.warthog1 wrote:This popped up in my email today
https://www.bicyclenetwork.com.au/our-c ... on6.com.au
A survey on attitudes toward the MHL (that they currently support)
I politely informed them in one of the comment boxes that I was not a member (and would not be) due to their stance on MHLs.
Why would cycling advocates want to support such a restrictive law? Maybe I should start campaigning for a more extreme position, we should ban bicycle helmets, might position the "helmets should be optional" position as the centre ground .
DS
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)
Postby BenGr » Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:46 am
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)
Postby human909 » Mon Sep 04, 2017 11:39 am
That said the questions were clearly written from the standpoint of "wearing a helmet is the default and sensible thing to do, if you think they should not be mandatory please explain why you think that".
Answering some of those questions felt similar to being asked, "explain why you believe eating a banana every morning should not be mandatory".
Bananas are damn healthy and if it was mandatory to eat one every morning I don't think my life would be negatively impacted. But that and many of the questions completely misses the point.
I think I answered 'other' and said when appropriate. (When appropriate might be all the time, or rarely.)BenGr wrote:Interesting they don't have an option for 'only when the risks are high'
Not to mention that questioning if you would increase your riding if mandatory helmet laws are removed is also missing the point. The people that removing mandatory helmet laws will affect the most are the people who are currently NOT riding or not riding frequently. It is unlikely that many of these people are answering this survey.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)
Postby uart » Mon Sep 04, 2017 11:46 am
I assume you are referring to the question "When do you think helmets should be compulsory?" with options "always", "never" etc. Note that it does leave a space for comments/explanation of your answer, so you can always elaborate there.BenGr wrote:Interesting they don't have an option for 'only when the risks are high'
I ticked "Only when racing/competing" because that is generally mandated by the relevant sporting bodies anyway, and it gave me a chance to mention that almost all of the cyclists in the high risk categories would choose to wear a helmet anyway (so why potentially discourage cyclists in low risk categories when the high risk guys are going to do it voluntarily anyway).
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)
Postby BJL » Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:42 pm
There's a graph somewhere that claims to show where head injuries occur. It's probably on this thread somewhere but I've also seen it on Facebook. From memory, it showed that about 50% of all head injuries are suffered inside motor vehicles whereas cycling was WAY up there with walking at a massive 1-2%.1Rowdy1 wrote:That makes more sense, I should read properly before replying.Thoglette wrote:Rowdy1Rowdy1 wrote:Yet car's account for way more than 1/2 the traffic on the roads, so head injuries are under represented in car occupants.
that's ALL head injuries, not just the traffic related ones. It's THE #1 place that head injury protection is needed
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)
Postby madmacca » Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:24 pm
I did likewise. It should be a matter of sporting body rules, not law.uart wrote:I assume you are referring to the question "When do you think helmets should be compulsory?" with options "always", "never" etc. Note that it does leave a space for comments/explanation of your answer, so you can always elaborate there.BenGr wrote:Interesting they don't have an option for 'only when the risks are high'
I ticked "Only when racing/competing" because that is generally mandated by the relevant sporting bodies anyway, and it gave me a chance to mention that almost all of the cyclists in the high risk categories would choose to wear a helmet anyway (so why potentially discourage cyclists in low risk categories when the high risk guys are going to do it voluntarily anyway).
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)
Postby warthog1 » Wed Sep 06, 2017 12:05 am
Haven't got anything to add to the discussion but you made some excellent points a couple of pages back F&O.fat and old wrote:Further to my assertion....
The absolute wall of outrage and outright lies that spring up whenever improved cycling infrastructure is proposed when it impacts on motorists.
Anything at all on Sydney Rd. The natural home of the "normal" cyclist. A thoroughfare that would benefit from streetscaping and boulevarding.
Anything at all on St. Kilda Rd. Again, a heavily used, "normalised cyclist" heavy route into the city. The uproar over the installment of a separated cycle lane is well known here.
Both of these streets are heavy with shirt/trouser/thongs type riders on all manner of cycles. The type which are "less hated". Why is it so hard to get any decent outcome for them in those locations? The majority don't wear lycra, no big peletons....why is it so?
Any new Cycle lane that results in one less traffic lane, such as the Old Calder Hwy near Macedon. Cycle lane created, then removed after a few months of agitation. Result? Death of a cyclist.
I'm sure that most members here are well aware of these issues....as are the posters of late.
As long as we are where we are supposed to be.
The above is but an excerpt of your greatness. lol
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)
Postby fat and old » Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:26 am
Question: If it WASN'T mandatory to wear a helmet, would you:
ride more
ride less
some other stupid option
Answer: Why would I ride any different? It's a helmet. If I'm happy to ride amongst 40 ton vehicles daily why would I decrease my k's if I didn't have to wear a helmet?
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)
Postby warthog1 » Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:53 pm
Whether anyone actually reads it or not....
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)
Postby London Boy » Fri Sep 08, 2017 10:27 pm
I said I'd ride more. Right now I mostly don't use the bikeshare schemes because I don't generally carry a helmet around with me. I also tend to drive to the local shops, because cycling is not right now a casual activity because of the need to wear a helmet. I've lost the British and European mentality where you just jump on the bike without thinking further about it.fat and old wrote:Question: If it WASN'T mandatory to wear a helmet, would you:
ride more
ride less
some other stupid option
Answer: Why would I ride any different? It's a helmet. If I'm happy to ride amongst 40 ton vehicles daily why would I decrease my k's if I didn't have to wear a helmet?
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)
Postby Philistine » Sat Sep 09, 2017 11:10 am
It never ceases to amaze me that so many people - usually late teen and twenty-something males - consider themselves too cool to wear helmets, and openly flout the law. If I set out to break the law (any law), I will do my level best to ensure that my activities remain as low key as possible. It seems they are saying to any passing policeman "here I am, come and pinch me!"
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)
Postby DavidS » Sun Sep 10, 2017 12:12 am
DS
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)
Postby human909 » Sun Sep 10, 2017 10:36 pm
Civil disobedience is not effective if you do it out of sight. They are doing more to undermine the law that you or me.Philistine wrote: It never ceases to amaze me that so many people - usually late teen and twenty-something males - consider themselves too cool to wear helmets, and openly flout the law. If I set out to break the law (any law), I will do my level best to ensure that my activities remain as low key as possible. It seems they are saying to any passing policeman "here I am, come and pinch me!"
Civil disobedience is not particularly effective unless you have the support of a large percentage of the population. MHL doesn't have this.DavidS wrote:Unfortunately it seems too difficult to get a decent civil disobedience campaign on this law.
It also helps if those doing it are REALLY committed and persistent. Sue Abbott is one. Though she is only one person.'
That said the aboriginal youth in the Northern Territory achieve it through civil disobedience.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)
Postby Mububban » Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:45 am
I've heard plenty of people say they don't ride a bike because they hate wearing helmets and getting sweaty and having their hair messed up.fat and old wrote:That survey's stupid.
Question: If it WASN'T mandatory to wear a helmet, would you:
ride more
ride less
some other stupid option
Answer: Why would I ride any different? It's a helmet. If I'm happy to ride amongst 40 ton vehicles daily why would I decrease my k's if I didn't have to wear a helmet?
It doesn't need to be what anyone else considers "a good reason" - if it stops someone riding then it's a barrier to participation.
If you routinely spend $200 on a cut, colour and style, or style yourself up with lots of product, you are not going to want to ruin it by wearing a helmet.
I have a crew cut so it's not a major concern for myself
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)
Postby fat and old » Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:40 am
I agree that Civil disobedience is ineffective if no one sees it, but are you suggesting that all of those who ride without a helmet are doing so with an intention of seeing the MHL repealed at the forefront of their actions?human909 wrote:Civil disobedience is not effective if you do it out of sight. They are doing more to undermine the law that you or me.Philistine wrote: It never ceases to amaze me that so many people - usually late teen and twenty-something males - consider themselves too cool to wear helmets, and openly flout the law. If I set out to break the law (any law), I will do my level best to ensure that my activities remain as low key as possible. It seems they are saying to any passing policeman "here I am, come and pinch me!"
A simplistic viewpoint human, that doesn't address the societal issues and pressures that bought about that outcome.That said the aboriginal youth in the Northern Territory achieve it through civil disobedience
Youo'll probably disagree, and that's cool. I just wanted to put my POV across and address that claim on the NT Indigenous youth.
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