Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

human909
Posts: 9810
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:48 am

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby human909 » Wed Jan 28, 2015 4:30 pm

Duck! wrote:There is actually. The law requires a magic hat to be worn at all times when riding a bike.
The law does not apply where road rules don't apply.

User avatar
g-boaf
Posts: 21318
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:11 pm

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby g-boaf » Wed Jan 28, 2015 4:37 pm

yugyug wrote:
Duck! wrote:
human909 wrote: And as far as bike racing goes there doesn't need to be a legal requirement, nor is there currently one as most races aren't on public roads (a road temporarily closed off is no longer a public road). Of course race organisers make the rules and generally require helmets.
There is actually. The law requires a magic hat to be worn at all times when riding a bike.
Yes, but the road rules are suspended for closed road races, allowing racers to ride on the opposite side of the road, more than two abreast, not have bells etc. Theoretically this could extend to suspending the helmet law, not that it ever would because race rules now will always require helmets.

The broader point is that cycling organisations whose interest is in racing should respectively put some distance between themselves and the debate because their own rules already cover the interests of their members and will continue to do so in absence of an MHL.

Unless the road is totally closed off, you must stay on the correct side of the road- no crossing to the wrong side at all. If you don't have an approved helmet then you aren't racing.

human909
Posts: 9810
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:48 am

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby human909 » Wed Jan 28, 2015 4:48 pm

g-boaf wrote:If you don't have an approved helmet then you aren't racing.
Not all races require this. Though is safe to say that most do. There is bicycle race of all forms and types happening in this country. Many races occur on private property and off roads.

User avatar
il padrone
Posts: 22931
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Heading for home.

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby il padrone » Mon Feb 09, 2015 9:49 pm

Any road race carried out under UCI rules (all) requires a helmet to be worn. Almost every MTB race I have ever heard of requires helmets, whether on-road or off-road, public land or private.

I do not have any problems with this requirement overall. Racers are the enthusiasts and will be very unlikely to be put off racing by a helmet rule. On top of that, the risks of falls and collisions are many times greater in racing.
Mandatory helmet law?
"An unjustified and unethical imposition on a healthy activity."

Ken Ho
Posts: 1299
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:28 pm
Location: Pikey, based on Southern Gold Coast

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby Ken Ho » Sun Feb 22, 2015 9:31 pm

Drizt wrote:I missed 2 weeks of cycling recently due to an infection I had on my forehead caused by wearing a helmet. It would clear up but as soon as I started wearing a helmet again the rash would come back.

Cleaned the helmet and washed the lining... Didn't make a difference. Started with sigmacort (steroids) to bring down the inflammation which works a treat. Now I've started wearing halo cycling caps (breathable / wicking etc) and the issue seems to be gone (manageable).

I asked about a helmet exemption and none of the doctors would have a bar of it. Told me it was irresponsible.

Moral of the story is that I can't see people changing their minds on mhl. It's ingrained now and here to stay.
What state are you in ?
NSW does not allow medical exemptions AFAIK, but qld does.
PM me.
YOu might also check http://www.helmetfreedom.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; , run by a doctor.
The medical profession had nothing to do wiht MHL's. They were the result of a businessman bribing a politician.
You have officially become your parents.

User avatar
outnabike
Posts: 2455
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2013 2:53 pm
Location: Melbourne Vic

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby outnabike » Sun Feb 22, 2015 10:42 pm

Medical exemptions? I said to the doc "I keep getting headaches from my helmet". I was told to get a bigger hat..... A failed strike one.... :)
Vivente World Randonneur complete with panniers

human909
Posts: 9810
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:48 am

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby human909 » Sun Feb 22, 2015 11:03 pm

outnabike wrote:Medical exemptions? I said to the doc "I keep getting headaches from my helmet". I was told to get a bigger hat..... A failed strike one.... :)
Keep trying different doctors.
Ken Ho wrote:The medical profession had nothing to do wiht MHL's.
I find that claim flabbergast.

User avatar
il padrone
Posts: 22931
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Heading for home.

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby il padrone » Sun Feb 22, 2015 11:37 pm

Ken Ho wrote:The medical profession had nothing to do wiht MHL's. They were the result of a businessman bribing a politician.
".....Professor Frank McDermott, former chair of the Victorian Road Trauma Committee, RACS, and the man who spearheaded the original campaign to make bike helmets compulsory in Australia....."

RACS = Royal Australasian College of Surgeons.

From ABC News
Mandatory helmet law?
"An unjustified and unethical imposition on a healthy activity."

User avatar
yugyug
Posts: 1826
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2012 10:27 am
Location: Sydney

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby yugyug » Mon Feb 23, 2015 1:07 am

I think Ken Ho's comment my concern the lobbying activities of Rosebank, though I'm keen to hear me from him about whatever it is. Nonetheless, Il Padrone is correct, doctors certainly had a lot to do with MHLs.

User avatar
Mulger bill
Super Mod
Super Mod
Posts: 29060
Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2006 2:41 pm
Location: Sunbury Vic

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby Mulger bill » Mon Feb 23, 2015 3:01 pm

il padrone wrote:
Ken Ho wrote:The medical profession had nothing to do wiht MHL's. They were the result of a businessman bribing a politician.
".....Professor Frank McDermott, former chair of the Victorian Road Trauma Committee, RACS, and the man who spearheaded the original campaign to make bike helmets compulsory in Australia....."

RACS = Royal Australasian College of Surgeons.

From ABC News
Interesting that he knocks other research as irrelevant but provides nothing more than hearsay and opinion in refute.
I'd love to see the research that made him decide to promote lid laws... Oh, Wait...
...whatever the road rules, self-preservation is the absolute priority for a cyclist when mixing it with motorised traffic.
London Boy 29/12/2011

User avatar
yugyug
Posts: 1826
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2012 10:27 am
Location: Sydney

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby yugyug » Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:44 pm

Ken Ho wrote: They were the result of a businessman bribing a politician.
.

Ken, can you expand on that please?

User avatar
mikesbytes
Super Mod
Super Mod
Posts: 22159
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:42 pm
Location: Tempe, Sydney
Contact:

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby mikesbytes » Tue Feb 24, 2015 10:45 pm

another angle to the question

I first owned a helmet in 1982 but I only started wearing it on every ride in 1990 (same helmet) I was obvious to the law been mandated and my decision to wear it on every ride had nothing to do with the law

When did the start enforcing the helmet law in Sydney?
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

User avatar
gorilla monsoon
Posts: 3553
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 10:45 am
Location: Lake Macquarie

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby gorilla monsoon » Thu Feb 26, 2015 12:22 pm

Ken Ho wrote:They were the result of a businessman bribing a politician.
Which businessman and which politician. Proof please.
Not my circus, not my monkeys

westab
Posts: 1703
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2010 5:05 pm
Location: Blacktown, NSW

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby westab » Fri Feb 27, 2015 10:35 am

mikesbytes wrote:another angle to the question

I first owned a helmet in 1982 but I only started wearing it on every ride in 1990 (same helmet) I was obvious to the law been mandated and my decision to wear it on every ride had nothing to do with the law

When did the start enforcing the helmet law in Sydney?
Law was brought in for all riders in 1992 - but was not enforced till January 1st 1993.

Me personally I think they are a good law (flame suit on) - I would choose to wear a "brain bucket" even if the laws were removed. As a father who thinks for safety reasons a "brain bucket" is a great idea for my riding kids it regularly saves and argument with one of my three kids. When they ask why they have to wear it I respond with "for your safety" - the discussion usually ends there or shortly after - if the kid in question starts to get annoyed about that there is always the fall back response of its the law. I don't like this one but then they know the rules - no "brain bucket" no ride.

(Please note - I have damaged and replaced two helmets that saved me from one minor injury and one possible major one and also have two nurse friends who work in emergency who regularly see us ride and talk about the number of head injuries they see from riders who don't wear helmets and how few they see from those who ride with helmets - this may not be evidence but it does convince me to put one on).
Not fast, no style, but still get there.

warthog1
Posts: 14305
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:40 pm
Location: Bendigo

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby warthog1 » Fri Feb 27, 2015 2:06 pm

westab wrote:
(Please note - I have damaged and replaced two helmets that saved me from one minor injury and one possible major one and also have two nurse friends who work in emergency who regularly see us ride and talk about the number of head injuries they see from riders who don't wear helmets and how few they see from those who ride with helmets - this may not be evidence but it does convince me to put one on).
We had a local woman RSI'ed and flown to Melb with an intracranial haemorrhage post a simple wheel overlap fall. Helmet was worn.
I wouldn't put that much faith in a lump of hard polystyrene, though it is probably better than nothing.
Dogs are the best people :wink:

westab
Posts: 1703
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2010 5:05 pm
Location: Blacktown, NSW

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby westab » Fri Feb 27, 2015 4:24 pm

warthog1 wrote:
westab wrote:
(Please note - I have damaged and replaced two helmets that saved me from one minor injury and one possible major one and also have two nurse friends who work in emergency who regularly see us ride and talk about the number of head injuries they see from riders who don't wear helmets and how few they see from those who ride with helmets - this may not be evidence but it does convince me to put one on).
We had a local woman RSI'ed and flown to Melb with an intracranial haemorrhage post a simple wheel overlap fall. Helmet was worn.
I wouldn't put that much faith in a lump of hard polystyrene, though it is probably better than nothing.
Sure I agree - my goal is always to keep black rubber on road and to touch nothing else. The issue for me is when is the next time I will fail with this.

Just like my nurse friends are not evidence that helmets are good or not as tragic as the above is (and I hope the lady recovers fully) one case in isolation is not conclusive either.

The most important thing I see it to get to where we are going and the only difference there should be is that we have less energy stores when we get there. To which your point is well taken - Ride safe everyone please what ever that looks like.
Not fast, no style, but still get there.

human909
Posts: 9810
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:48 am

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby human909 » Fri Feb 27, 2015 7:29 pm

westab wrote:Sure I agree - my goal is always to keep black rubber on road and to touch nothing else. The issue for me is when is the next time I will fail with this.
A good goal. One in which those helmetless folks in the Netherlands largely do well and when they do fail the consequences are almost always negligible.

The risk of head injuries in moderate speed cycling is very low. If you put yourself in higher risk categories by riding faster and in more risky circumstances a helmet is much more advisable. It is unfortunate that we don't have a choice. Meanwhile, there have been safety losses from having mandatory helmet laws. :|

User avatar
il padrone
Posts: 22931
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Heading for home.

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby il padrone » Fri Feb 27, 2015 10:15 pm

human909 wrote:
westab wrote:Sure I agree - my goal is always to keep black rubber on road and to touch nothing else. The issue for me is when is the next time I will fail with this.
A good goal. One in which those helmetless folks in the Netherlands largely do well and when they do fail the consequences are almost always negligible.

The risk of head injuries in moderate speed cycling is very low. If you put yourself in higher risk categories by riding faster and in more risky circumstances a helmet is much more advisable.
The style of bike plays a rather large part in the risk as well. Relatively more difficult to go OTB when riding a heavier, upright roadster-style step-through bike, especially when loaded with items on the rear rack. Ridng at speed on a drop bar road bike, with gear carried in a backpack, makes for a higher risk.

Good video demonstration of Dutch cyclists crashing - with few/no head contacts; no real injuries
Mandatory helmet law?
"An unjustified and unethical imposition on a healthy activity."

User avatar
Dragster1
Posts: 1540
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:46 pm
Location: Eluding motorist

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby Dragster1 » Fri Feb 27, 2015 11:47 pm

It's funny how you go to places like Italy and helmets are not mandatory but everyone still has one on. :?: :?:

120789660

human909
Posts: 9810
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:48 am

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby human909 » Sat Feb 28, 2015 12:06 am

Dragster1 wrote:It's funny how you go to places like Italy and helmets are not mandatory but everyone still has one on. :?: :?:
It is funny how you need to resort to false statements to make you argument.

But that is irrelevant. Without MHLs people are still free to wear helmets. Roadies and mountain bikers generally choose to do so in Europe. General everyday utilitarian cyclists, not so much.

User avatar
il padrone
Posts: 22931
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Heading for home.

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby il padrone » Sat Feb 28, 2015 12:16 am

Dragster1 wrote:It's funny how you go to places like Italy and helmets are not mandatory but everyone still has one on. :?: :?:
They do :?: :shock:

This was certainly not my experience. Roadies wore helmets (sometimes). People we saw riding about towns did not!

Your video linked is obbviously on some sort of roadie cycling route. The people we saw mostly cycling were those just riding about for transport.


Image

Image

Image

Image

Image
Last edited by il padrone on Sat Feb 28, 2015 12:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
Mandatory helmet law?
"An unjustified and unethical imposition on a healthy activity."

User avatar
Dragster1
Posts: 1540
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:46 pm
Location: Eluding motorist

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby Dragster1 » Sat Feb 28, 2015 12:21 am

human909 wrote: It is funny how you need to resort to ]false statements[/url] to make you argument.
I don't quite understand what you are trying to say ???, just asked a simple question , If helmets don't make it any safer on the road why is there a need to wear them in a country where it's not compulsory in the first place and even seen some of the older generation on cruisers with them also. In the area I was in, I noticed that the majority of the cyclist wore helmets, even commuters left their helmets on the parked bikes.
Image
Image
Image
Last edited by Dragster1 on Sat Feb 28, 2015 12:59 am, edited 3 times in total.

User avatar
il padrone
Posts: 22931
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Heading for home.

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby il padrone » Sat Feb 28, 2015 12:30 am

1. As anybody suggesting that the MHL should be removed will agree, having no MHL does not stop you from choosing to wear a helmet , for a variety of reasons;

2. For road cyclists and many MTB riders, the UCI requirement for racing use sets them up with a helmet to begin with. It has become a part of the sportive road and MTB culture. Having said this, we did see some enthusiast riders not wearing lids.

Your photos go to support what H909 has been saying. People wearing lycra knicks and road jerseys will probably use a helmet. Those in everyday clothing often will not.


Here is a touring group we met on Corsica - mixed use of helmets, even though they are part of what I might categorise as enthusiast use.

Image
Mandatory helmet law?
"An unjustified and unethical imposition on a healthy activity."

human909
Posts: 9810
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:48 am

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby human909 » Sat Feb 28, 2015 1:44 pm

Dragster1 wrote:I don't quite understand what you are trying to say ???, just asked a simple question
It was not a question. It was clearly a statement. And a false one.
Dragster1 wrote:If helmets don't make it any safer on the road why is there a need to wear them in a country where it's not compulsory in the first place and even seen some of the older generation on cruisers with them also.
Now that is a question (despite the lack of appropriate punctuation). Nobody here is claiming that there are not safety benefits for wearing helmets.
Dragster1 wrote:In the area I was in, I noticed that the majority of the cyclist wore helmets, even commuters left their helmets on the parked bikes.
Great story. Still not sure of its relevance. Like I've often said it is great that some people choose to wear helmets. I regularly choose to do so too in other sports where I have the choice. :idea:

User avatar
mikesbytes
Super Mod
Super Mod
Posts: 22159
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:42 pm
Location: Tempe, Sydney
Contact:

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby mikesbytes » Sat Feb 28, 2015 2:48 pm

The discussion about wearing helmets reminds me of the US movie Fixation, something like 3 years old. Its a good movie, look it up if you haven't seen it.

Most of the fixie riders in the movie were riding brakeless and all but one wore a helmet. It kinda sent a message that they considered a helmet more important than brakes. The movie also talked about a organised social ride and showed a reasonable size group of riders on all sorts of bikes, about half wore helmets. There was no discussion about helmets and no one seemed to care if their friend had a helmet on or not.

Comparing the Italian photos to Fixation, the fixie riders were the equivalent of the sports and touring riders and the social ride equivalent of the commuters
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users