Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thread)

Postby eldavo » Sun May 15, 2016 10:37 pm

*whispering* (what's DF??)

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thread)

Postby il padrone » Sun May 15, 2016 11:55 pm

Diamond frame
Mandatory helmet law?
"An unjustified and unethical imposition on a healthy activity."

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thread)

Postby mikesbytes » Mon May 16, 2016 1:17 pm

Nice

With the savings you would of made by buying my helmet instead, you could of upgraded the handlebar tap :)

(hows the thread count going? r we back ahead?)
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thread)

Postby Comedian » Mon May 16, 2016 2:03 pm

outnabike wrote:The closest I ever come to needing a helmet is by direct assault from drivers. So I don't need the thing to ride my bike.

I have to wear it due to the trained doctors that drive cars and are just as inattentive as other drivers, and who see the result of what drivers do to cyclists. Not a cyclist falling off his bike.

I am betting Michael's experiences refers to those sort of purposdents.

I mean think about it. A rider knows he is ok on a bike, yet it is the motorist that wants you to have head gear, the guy that knows he is going to assault you.
Motorists have to be told to keep clear of cyclist!!! The idiot blasting his horn at you wants you to be safe. The unregistered idiot that drives with out a license has the power to have input to make a cyclist protect himself from that same idiot.

Look at all the so called accidents and mayhem these sort of drivers do and we pick up the tab in hospital care, insurance etc.

To suggest a cyclist pay if he gets hurt is just ridiculous. I want to choose where and when I were a helmet.
That's a great way of looking at it. I've often thought that drivers telling cyclists to wear helmets is just a case of hoping it will somehow transfer some of the responsibility onto the cyclist. And be a potential out for the motorist in the case of a non helmet wearing cyclist.

I'm all for choice but would probably wear one most of the time even if I did. I know that lots more people would ride if we had choice and I want that.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thread)

Postby eldavo » Mon May 16, 2016 2:14 pm

Do you recall a case of a motor vehicle rear collision into a cyclist. I recall hearing the defense mitigating the driver's responsibility by claiming the cyclists front lights weren't on or bright enough. It's vague memory not sure if it's the same case, I recall a magistrate making the error of legal requirement for lighting being visible from a distance, versus the defense argument that the cyclist's lights weren't lighting that distance. It didn't make any sense from physics nor the fact it was a rear collision, but it seemed to go against the cyclist badly.

The victim blaming culture is strong, absence of a helmet is seen as reckless endangerment of our whole species. Speaking of the apocalypse, I wonder what the correlation of the freedom to choose helmets is compared to freedom to choose vaccinations. (cha-ching, this thread will go to 500 pages very quickly ;)

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thread)

Postby Boognoss » Mon May 16, 2016 2:36 pm

eldavo wrote:Do you recall a case of a motor vehicle rear collision into a cyclist. I recall hearing the defense mitigating the driver's responsibility by claiming the cyclists front lights weren't on or bright enough. It's vague memory not sure if it's the same case, I recall a magistrate making the error of legal requirement for lighting being visible from a distance, versus the defense argument that the cyclist's lights weren't lighting that distance. It didn't make any sense from physics nor the fact it was a rear collision, but it seemed to go against the cyclist badly.

The victim blaming culture is strong, absence of a helmet is seen as reckless endangerment of our whole species. Speaking of the apocalypse, I wonder what the correlation of the freedom to choose helmets is compared to freedom to choose vaccinations. (cha-ching, this thread will go to 500 pages very quickly ;)
I think this is the one in question.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thread)

Postby eldavo » Mon May 16, 2016 3:33 pm

Thanks, that's the one.
"As a result, Mr Angel suffered a fracture in his thoracic vertebra, wore a brace for five months and was in residential care for seven months."

Reading it again makes me think the best hope road cyclists may have is driverless or driver-assisted auto-pilot vehicles. Human's aren't very reliable, we have known cognitive sensory flaws (efficiencies as far as our brain is concerned prior to industrialisation), our attention is limited, and now there's social media and smart phones.

Check out this incident for varying standards in victim blaming and sentencing.
http://www.communitynews.com.au/fremant ... il/7687069

"Kwinana Freeway road rage attacker Anwar Hautapu sentenced to 10 months in jail"
Bryce Luff | May 10, 2016, 11:30 AM | FREMANTLE GAZETTE

A SINGLETON man charged with a road rage attack on the Kwinana Freeway in October has been sentenced to 10 months prison.
Anwar Hautapu was a passenger in a black Holden Astra in Success in October that, after entering the freeway, pulled up beside a Ford Fiesta being driven by a 56-year-old woman.
Police said Hautapu leaned out of the window, yelled abuse at the woman and threw something at her car.
He was filmed by the victim leaving his car and approaching her vehicle, shouting abuse and attempting to open her driver’s door.
He then punched the driver’s window, shattering the glass and striking the victim on the right shoulder, causing minor scratches.
Glass was spread throughout the victim’s car. He then walked back to the Holden, which drove off.
He was today sentenced to 10 months in prison for the attack and will be eligible for parole in five months.


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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thread)

Postby human909 » Mon May 16, 2016 7:39 pm

eldavo wrote:"Kwinana Freeway road rage attacker Anwar Hautapu sentenced to 10 months in jail"....

.....He then punched the driver’s window, shattering the glass and striking the victim on the right shoulder, causing minor scratches,

10 months jail for THAT!? Sounds a bit excessive. Even not withstanding the normal excessively pathetic approach to punishment.

I got dragged off my bicycle and slammed against a wall by a violent motorist. He was threatening to punch me but that didn't eventuate... Statements were taken and several witnesses came forward. Though I can't see him getting 10 months jail!
(I wouldn't expect or want jail time for him any way. I'd love to see loss of license but that isn't an option in an assault charge.)

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thread)

Postby eldavo » Mon May 16, 2016 7:56 pm

Yeah looking closer the report lacks detail, may have had previous, outstanding warrants etc.
The system is far from close to the mark for many things. Mandatory helmet laws aren't part of the solution. (mega segway high5!)

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thread)

Postby mikesbytes » Tue May 17, 2016 11:36 am

When sentencing the Judge reviews past convictions, ie if ones record is squeaky clean the sentence will be lighter than someone with a history
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Once again, Yehuda Moon hits the spot

Postby Thoglette » Fri Jun 03, 2016 9:21 pm

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thread)

Postby mikesbytes » Wed Jun 08, 2016 10:08 pm

I was thinking the other day [yeh I know that's unusual] that the activity in Australia that has the highest helmet usage, by number of people doing it, where helmets are not compulsory is skiing.

My question is, is there any info on the risk of head injury skiing and can we compare that with the risk of head injury for cycling?
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thread)

Postby bychosis » Wed Jun 08, 2016 10:35 pm

mikesbytes wrote:I was thinking the other day [yeh I know that's unusual] that the activity in Australia that has the highest helmet usage, by number of people doing it, where helmets are not compulsory is skiing.

My question is, is there any info on the risk of head injury skiing and can we compare that with the risk of head injury for cycling?
You don't need to object to wearing a helmet skiing becuase a) your hair is getting messed up by the beanie; b) keeping your head warm is an advantage.

In my experience I'm much more likely to fall over while on snow than a cycle path.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thread)

Postby Thoglette » Wed Jun 08, 2016 10:53 pm

mikesbytes wrote:My question is, is there any info on the risk of head injury skiing and can we compare that with the risk of head injury for cycling?
Short answer: NO!

"Cycling" is not a homogeneous activity for which one approach fits all.

This is a major point of Zeegers (2015) who found that those whose "cycling" benefited from a helmet mostly wore one. Those who didn't (the majority of utility cyclists) don't.

Not suprisingly, utility cyclists are the ones who (mostly) disappeared after MHLs were introduced.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thread)

Postby human909 » Thu Jun 09, 2016 11:20 am

mikesbytes wrote:I was thinking the other day [yeh I know that's unusual] that the activity in Australia that has the highest helmet usage, by number of people doing it, where helmets are not compulsory is skiing.
This has been a recent development in the last decade or so. But MHLs have influenced other sports too. However in the case of skiing things are a little different. Helmets are 'cool' as they show that skiing is an extreme sport! They are also warmer than most other head coverings. In Australia I don't wear the ski helmet I own, the risks are low and it is warm here!

In contrast I've skied several times in Jackson Hole in the US. Pretty much EVERYBODY on the mountain wears a helmet. The fact that it is pretty much the steepest resort skiing in the world and is damn cold certainly are strong influences.
mikesbytes wrote:My question is, is there any info on the risk of head injury skiing and can we compare that with the risk of head injury for cycling?
From the data I've seen previously skiing is significantly more dangerous than cycling. Of course the risk in both activities depend on your approach and the conditions but overall skiing is a more dangerous activity. (I've seen data comparisons with rock climbing skiing has similar death rates, and much higher injury rates that rock climbing.)


White-water kayaking, rock climbing, mountain biking and a bunch of other sports have very high helmet usage rates. Not compulsory. But it just makes sense. (Though for indoor rock climbing helmets aren't used because they largely aren't needed. 'Sport' climbing helmet wearing is less common.)

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thread)

Postby mikesbytes » Thu Jun 09, 2016 4:40 pm

The reason I thought of Skiing was that there are significant numbers that ski so there's more people to focus on than other sports/recreations
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thread)

Postby smalaska » Tue Jun 14, 2016 3:17 pm

Greetings everyone. I'm posting a question here that I hope you guys can shed some light on.

I live in Alaska and I'm planning a bike trip from Perth to Sydney this coming November and December. I know that helmet use is required by law in all of Australia. My question is, how likely is it to be enforced by the police? The reason I ask is that I've been biking my entire life (55 years old) and I've never worn (or even owned) a helmet and I've never lived or biked anyplace where helmets were mandatory. Heck, I'm not even the type that wears a hat of any kind. So this whole mandatory helmet issue is a point of stress for me.

I suspect that there's more of a chance of getting busted by the helmet police when I'm in the larger cities (Perth, Adelaide, Sydney, etc.). But what about outside of the cities, going across the Nullarbor and other remote stretches of road? What's the chance of getting a ticket there?

If I go without a helmet, will I always have to be on the lookout for the cops? Or do you think that I might be able to slide by without being noticed too much?

P.S. Yeah, I know this question sounds bad, like I'm a no-good miscreant who's out to break the laws of the land. I'm actually a good guy (at least I think so). It's just that wearing a helmet is such a foreign concept to me that it's hard to wrap my head around it!

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thread)

Postby eldavo » Tue Jun 14, 2016 4:09 pm

Foreign travellers effectively laugh at misdemeanour fines, especially if you're travelling across the country. British Backpackers make a sport of it.

A good large brimmed hat is probably better protection against the chrome glare off road trains doing 120kph.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thread)

Postby human909 » Tue Jun 14, 2016 4:48 pm

smalaska wrote:So this whole mandatory helmet issue is a point of stress for me.
Don't let it stress you. Also Australian police are on the whole more polite and less likely to be power tripping bullies than US police. But like most police they do like writing tickets when they are bored. (I've travelled the US and had good and poor encounters with law enforcement. In none of the case was I doing anything wrong.)
smalaska wrote:P.S. Yeah, I know this question sounds bad, like I'm a no-good miscreant who's out to break the laws of the land.
Most of the people in this thread won't take that attitude. Though of course some may. :roll:
smalaska wrote:I suspect that there's more of a chance of getting busted by the helmet police when I'm in the larger cities (Perth, Adelaide, Sydney, etc.). But what about outside of the cities, going across the Nullarbor and other remote stretches of road? What's the chance of getting a ticket there?
There is a chance any time a bored cop sees you he might stop for a chat. On learning you are a foreigner there is a good chance just get of with just a verbal warning. It famously occured to Arnold Schwarzenegger in Melbourne! Sure you could get a fine, but with no fixed address to send the fine I'm sure most offices would realise the futility and not bother. Afterwards there is a good chance the cop will be curious about your adventures and you'll end up having a pleasant chat.
smalaska wrote:If I go without a helmet, will I always have to be on the lookout for the cops? Or do you think that I might be able to slide by without being noticed too much?
It is a choice you are making. Don't let your enjoyment of your ride be interfered with by being on the lookout for cops. Accept that you are making that choice and live with it and just be friendly when a cop does ask for a chat. Most of the time you'll slide right by without being noticed but the length of time you'll be on the road it is very likely that a cop will speak to you at some point.

So just prepare the smiles. The I didn't know excuse usually works for many foreigners but if you are cycling across the country trying that excuse on might just be a little too hard to believe, so best not to try it. I'd just be friendly and explain that you've never worn a helmet in your life and that you find that your head gets too hot in them.
smalaska wrote:Heck, I'm not even the type that wears a hat of any kind.
Crossing the Nullabor and not wearing a hat!? Probably not a great idea unless you plan to be riding at night and sleeping during the day. (A choice some riders have made when it is hot!) Also wearing a hat will reduce your chances of police noticing by 50%. (A made up figure, but there is likely truth in it.)

You are riding through some of the hotter areas during the hottest months, in a hot country with high UV. Consideration of protection from the heat and the UV is important. A loose long sleeve top and a broad brimmed hat are excellent starts. Both will keep you protected from the heat and the UV.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thread)

Postby smalaska » Tue Jun 14, 2016 5:42 pm

Thanks Human909, for your input. It's all very logical and makes perfect sense. Thanks.

Yes, you're correct about the insanity of crossing the Nullarbor without a hat and other sun protection. That's something I realized that I would have to address so I do indeed plan on wearing a wide-brimmed sun hat and using copious amounts of sunscreen.

You're right too about it probably not being wise to use the line, "Well officer, I didn't know helmets were required." I figure if I try that, I'll just hear, "Ignorance of the law is no excuse" followed by being handed a nice piece of paper with a "required donation amount", if you know what I mean!

I think what I'll most likely do is buy a helmet when I get to Perth and initially wear it in town while I'm getting a feel for the law enforcement potential, or in situations when I think there might be a higher likelihood of getting nabbed (like at the SA/WA border station).

Scott

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thread)

Postby human909 » Tue Jun 14, 2016 6:05 pm

smalaska wrote:Thanks Human909, for your input. It's all very logical and makes perfect sense. Thanks.
You're welcome. I've enjoyed my travels through the US, mostly rock climbing not cycling. I hope you enjoy your time here!
smalaska wrote:"Well officer, I didn't know helmets were required." I figure if I try that, I'll just hear, "Ignorance of the law is no excuse" followed by being handed a nice piece of paper with a "required donation amount", if you know what I mean!
It works for plenty of foreigners. And in Arnold Schwarzenegger's case it was probably true.
smalaska wrote:I think what I'll most likely do is buy a helmet when I get to Perth and initially wear it in town while I'm getting a feel for the law enforcement potential.
Probably the best way to approach things. Though, realistically the risk of getting a fine is quite low even if they do pull you over for a chat.

Also note that Sydney is in the midst of an anti-cyclist crackdown spearheaded by police and some nasty politicians. So on occasion police have been tasked specifically with pulling over cyclists for such "no-good miscreant" behaviours. So it might make your life easier to just wear it when you are in Sydney.
smalaska wrote:(like at the SA/WA border station)
The only border stations are quarantine ones. And they'll care more about what fruit you are carrying that what is on your head! (no kidding, its all about plant diseases) Though like you say if you put a helmet on 200m beforehand then it can take away any worry you might have about questions being asked.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thread)

Postby il padrone » Tue Jun 14, 2016 6:19 pm

If you are entering NSW be very wary. Their police have gone on something of a helmet-fining crusade over the past 2-3 months. Not wearing a helmet incurs a fine of $319.
Mandatory helmet law?
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thread)

Postby DavidS » Tue Jun 14, 2016 9:45 pm

Just tell them to send the fine to your address in Alaska, I'm sure they'll want to want to extradite you!
Actually I reckon you will get off if you ride around with the helmet hanging from the handlebars and claim you forgot, you are from a sane place where helmets are optional, easy to forget.
If I had foreign proof of identity I'd never have to wear my fine avoidance hat.
Good Luck, have a great ride.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thread)

Postby uart » Tue Jun 14, 2016 10:06 pm

eldavo wrote:Foreign travellers effectively laugh at misdemeanour fines, especially if you're travelling across the country. British Backpackers make a sport of it.
DavidS wrote:Just tell them to send the fine to your address in Alaska, I'm sure they'll want to want to extradite you!
Yes, smalaska could probably just go home at the end of the trip and "blow off" any fines incurred, but that mightn't be the best thing to do. What if he later planned to revisit Australia at some future date! He could be refused a visa, or even worse, turned around at the airport when he arrived!

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thread)

Postby human909 » Tue Jun 14, 2016 10:10 pm

DavidS wrote:Just tell them to send the fine to your address in Alaska.
This alone would pretty much get you out of every fine for minor matters. The, I can't be bother with the paperwork will win every time.

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