Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thread)

human909
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby human909 » Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:20 pm

simonn wrote:He is not judging the purpose of the journey, but pointing out that someone doesn't get quads that big by being a casual/commuter cyclist.

Lost on you, clearly.

Yes. And the point is still lost on the breeze. Are we now having a quads competition?

simonn wrote:In any case the casual/commuter cyclist vs lycra lout is ridiculous. Most lycra louts I know commute and transport themselves on bicycles often. On Sat I did the Daddaday Tour de Babyccino (while also picking up a couple of packets of classic plunger blend for our morning hit) - even logged in on Strava for a giggle with me mates -and on Sun I did the Son-day Tour de Swings et Slides. Both completely lycra/cycle attire-free on womans bike with a kiddie seat up front and a basket on the rear. I will commute all week on a road bike looking like a hybrid lycra lout/commuter. I will be doing a 200km brevet this Sat... what category do I fit in.


It is quite hillarious that the perspectives in this discussion are so polarly opposed that one side barely understands the other. The point is not that YOU can't swap bikes and clothes but that in Australia much of the commuters are enthusiasts not every day people. Until we encourage and may cycling attractive for every day people we cannot expect widespread adoption. :wink:

Which of course gets back to helmets. :mrgreen:

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simonn
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby simonn » Wed Nov 21, 2012 2:01 pm

human909 wrote:The point is... ...that in Australia much of the commuters are enthusiasts not every day people.


And this is the norm worldwide. There are exceptions, but they are exceptions, not the norm.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby human909 » Wed Nov 21, 2012 2:33 pm

simonn wrote:
human909 wrote:The point is... ...that in Australia much of the commuters are enthusiasts not every day people.


And this is the norm worldwide. There are exceptions, but they are exceptions, not the norm.


I think you need to get out more. Across the globe bicycles are primarily a transport device use by people who find it practical and affordable.

Again getting back to helmet, I and others want Australia to be a place where non enthusiasts want to ride. MHLs are a hindrance to this goal.

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il padrone
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby il padrone » Wed Nov 21, 2012 6:32 pm

simonn wrote:
human909 wrote:The point is... ...that in Australia much of the commuters are enthusiasts not every day people.


And this is the norm worldwide. There are exceptions, but they are exceptions, not the norm.

I think you are misreading how the majority of cycle commuters in other countries view their cycling.
Mandatory helmet law?
"An unjustified and unethical imposition on a healthy activity."

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Biffidus
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby Biffidus » Wed Nov 21, 2012 7:02 pm

Comedian wrote:Airbags do not work for unbelted occupants.

According to wikipedia airbags were developed specifically for occupants not restrained by seatbelts. When seatbelts are in common use the airbag design is different as it is intended to prevent whiplash rather than impact with the dashboard/steering wheel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbag#As_a_supplement_to_seat_belts

As for the enthusiasts, if you're on this forum (or a cyclist in Australia) it's likely that you are one. The important distinction is utility versus recreational cycling. Utility cyclists are the ones using their bikes in the way most of us use our cars or public transport; going from A-B, in our everyday clothes because it is convenient to do so. Recreational cyclists are out in spite of the inconvenience because they really like bikes/cycling.

Helmets might not deter the recreational cyclists but they will deter the other 99% who might otherwise use it to zip down to the shops for bread and milk or into the city because it's easier than finding a park.

That's my 2c anyway.

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simonn
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby simonn » Wed Nov 21, 2012 9:13 pm

il padrone wrote:
simonn wrote:
human909 wrote:The point is... ...that in Australia much of the commuters are enthusiasts not every day people.


And this is the norm worldwide. There are exceptions, but they are exceptions, not the norm.

I think you are misreading how the majority of cycle commuters in other countries view their cycling.

If Copenhagen was normal WRT cycling you would not have sites like copenhagnize would you? They are an exception.

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il padrone
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby il padrone » Wed Nov 21, 2012 9:47 pm

Everyday cyclists in...

Amsterdam
Image

Paris
Image

Berlin
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Hamburg
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Pisa
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Strasbourg
Image

Brussels
Image

Many cities across Europe have a high level of cycle commuting, and one theme that you will find is the prevalence of ordinary people, riding roadster-style bikes in street clothing. Participation rates may differ (Copenhagen having the highest rates of course), but the attitude to cycling as normal transport, and the style in which it is pursued, are generally pretty similar. I won't even mention the huge numbers of commuter cyclists across Asia.
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DavidS
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby DavidS » Wed Nov 21, 2012 10:17 pm

human909 wrote:It is quite hillarious that the perspectives in this discussion are so polarly opposed that one side barely understands the other. The point is not that YOU can't swap bikes and clothes but that in Australia much of the commuters are enthusiasts not every day people. Until we encourage and may cycling attractive for every day people we cannot expect widespread adoption. :wink:

Which of course gets back to helmets. :mrgreen:


Absolutely, the point is to make cycling a "normal" option for short to medium trips for a large proportion of the population. We need to remove barriers and disincentives to cycling and MHLs do not encourage cycling, quite the opposite.

Il Padrone, I immediately thought of Asian cities and their cyclists when you posted those pics, good to see you mentioned it at the end. In lots of less wealthy countries bicycles are a major form of transport: cheap, efficient, cut through traffic etc. This is what bikes were invented to do and they do it very well and they do it in many, many places.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby Percrime » Wed Nov 21, 2012 10:29 pm

Comedian wrote:Airbags do not work for unbelted occupants.


Absolutely wrong But apparently the optimum timing is different. So they fire at different speeds. (from memory I think they fire more violently ) if the car is going to a market without seat belt laws.

EDIT.. I see this has already been answered. I really thought it was common knowledge tho.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby human909 » Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:41 pm

DavidS wrote:Il Padrone, I immediately thought of Asian cities and their cyclists when you posted those pics, good to see you mentioned it at the end. In lots of less wealthy countries bicycles are a major form of transport: cheap, efficient, cut through traffic etc. This is what bikes were invented to do and they do it very well and they do it in many, many places.


Asia and Africa both have a dominance of the bicycle as a utility device rather than a recreational device, but as you say wealth is a factor. Japan is a very wealthy nation where utility cycling is commonplace something that is often forgotten in discussions focussing on Copenhagen and Amsterdam. In fact the main places that the bicycle is primarily viewed as a recreational device are the UK and its immigrant colonies of Canada, US, NZ and AUS. Southern Europe of Italy and Greece may be recreational dominant, I'm not sure.


To reiterate, I and others, are not against enthusiasts cyclists! The fact that I am on this forum and passionately argue about it is evidence that I am an enthusiast. My love of bikes, cycling and the benefits it brings dense cities means that I would like to see most people on bikes, even non enthusiasts!

Some enthusiasts are less keen on letting non enthusiast share their world of cycling. :(

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby il padrone » Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:47 pm

Oh, yeah. Bicycling in Tokyo :) :wink:
Image
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby ZepinAtor » Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:51 am

Loving the bike parking arrangement above with bikes just casually placed, un-locked & ready to roll.

This is my biggest deterrent here in Brisbane. I would NEVER leave any bike of any description outside ANY shopping complex without fear of it being stolen or vandalised.

Just this afternoon I drove 2km to pick up 2kg of bananas.

Reasons for driving :-

Afternoon traffic is rubbish, not that I can't handle it.

Bike parking security-Nil

Helmet wearing ? I could take it or leave it, although I am regular serious road/MTB racing type so helmets go with the territory.

If I was not a fairly fit active human being you could add a massive hill to the list.

So there's 4 legitimate reasons NOT to ride a bike in my area. Hills, helmets, traffic, bike parking.

Sadly it's not likely to change in the next 10 years unless they ban cars or run out of fuel to power them.
Gas propulsion.......it's natural don't fight it.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby jules21 » Thu Nov 22, 2012 1:09 pm

NZ brain injuries at 'epidemic' levels

while there is no specific link to cycling, it is consistent with growing evidence that head trauma is a far more serious problem than has been historically acknowledged.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby Xplora » Thu Nov 22, 2012 1:30 pm

jules21 wrote:NZ brain injuries at 'epidemic' levels

while there is no specific link to cycling, it is consistent with growing evidence that head trauma is a far more serious problem than has been historically acknowledged.

Could it be that NZ has a reputation for extreme sports and so forth, that contributes to this?

Or could it be that injuries are part of the facts of life, and even with the MHL in NZ you can still expect a bunch of head injuries across the population? It is telling that a country with bicycle MHL seems to have a higher rate of brain injury than other developed countries (which normally do not have MHL, except for us?).

The evidence just doesn't back MHL up...

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby jules21 » Thu Nov 22, 2012 1:34 pm

does NZ have MHLs?

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby human909 » Thu Nov 22, 2012 2:20 pm

jules21 wrote:while there is no specific link to cycling, it is consistent with growing evidence that head trauma is a far more serious problem than has been historically acknowledged.

I haven't seen anybody in the 5201 posts in this thread suggest that head trauma is extremely serious. But claims that head trauma is serious is just as likely to support MHL for everybody once they get out of bed as it is for cycling.

jules21 wrote:does NZ have MHLs?

Yes. (for cycling not for getting out of bed)

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby il padrone » Thu Nov 22, 2012 3:19 pm

Program on the ABC from BBC a few years ago about Risk. In it a doctor quoted the great fears about ecstasy at rave parties - in the past 6 months 2 people had died from ecstasy abuse. He also quoted that in the past 6 months something like 50 people had died from the effects of heroin..... and something like several hundred had died from alcohol's effects. Every year 20 people die getting out of bed.... 30 people die walking down the stairs.

Helmets for all, I say :P
Last edited by il padrone on Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
Mandatory helmet law?
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby il padrone » Thu Nov 22, 2012 3:21 pm

Xplora wrote:
jules21 wrote:NZ brain injuries at 'epidemic' levels

while there is no specific link to cycling, it is consistent with growing evidence that head trauma is a far more serious problem than has been historically acknowledged.

Could it be that NZ has a reputation for extreme sports and so forth, that contributes to this?

Thugby ???
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby il padrone » Sat Nov 24, 2012 1:03 pm

Image
Mandatory helmet law?
"An unjustified and unethical imposition on a healthy activity."


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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby il padrone » Sat Nov 24, 2012 2:11 pm

.....and despite all that, the serious head injuries still occur :o
Mandatory helmet law?
"An unjustified and unethical imposition on a healthy activity."

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby jules21 » Sat Nov 24, 2012 2:15 pm

il padrone wrote:.....and despite all that, the serious head injuries still occur :o

Image

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby Comedian » Sat Nov 24, 2012 2:57 pm

ZepinAtor wrote:Sadly it's not likely to change in the next 10 years unless they ban cars or run out of fuel to power them.


A little cross topic... but if you read some of the information from ASPO that is actually pretty likely to happen. Probably sooner than 99% of people think, too.

When we end up with very high priced fuel and/or rationing sometime in the next decade I think that will actually be the catalyst for change on the helmet law front. You'll have a heap of people that currently do not ride, and do not consider themselves "cyclists" that will be forced to use bicycles for transport. What's more.. I think they won't stand for the showtime we put up with now and will demand that cycling be made easier and more convenient. One of these things will be repealing the helmet law like the rest of the civilised world.

At the same time politicians will be forced to rush bicycle infrastructure into place at a time when the cost of construction will be at an all time high. It's likely there will be temporary measures like traffic lanes claimed and separated. It won't be a fun time but hopefully my family will be somewhat more able to cope than most. :shock:

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby greyhoundtom » Sat Nov 24, 2012 4:47 pm

News Release 8th November 2012
Cairns, Qld

An oil confererence in Cairns was told today that Governments, businesses and communities should be preparing now for future global oil shortages. Bruce Robinson, Convenor of the Australian Association for the Study of Peak Oil, outlined the evidence that Peak Oil will probably occur in the near future.

There is no good evidence supporting the hope that world oil production can continually to expand to meet ever-increasing demand from China, India and other developing nations. But there are many reassuring statements, like those offered before the Global Financial Crisis, that all is well and business will be as usual.

A small (20%) increase in US oil production has been hyped as solving the US and world fuel problems. But even now, with consumption falling due to the recession, the US produces only 41% of the oil it consumes.

The hype about US shale oil is obscuring the bald fact that, like the Bass Strait oilfields, the output from many of the world’s super-giant oilfields is in serious decline and is only just being matched by new small fields being discovered and brought into production now.

Decision-makers must tackle the serious problems caused by the human tendency to believe the good news and to ignore warnings and unfavourable forecasts. “The Optimism Bias” is one description of this hazard for forward planning.

Failure to plan for the probability of future oil shortages may well prove to be more serious than the failure to heed the warnings of the gross financial risks which led to the GFC.

Mr Robinson recommended that reviews like the 2007 Cairns Oil Vulnerability study and work by the Gold Coast Council be expanded and updated as models for business and government. A 2008 CSIRO Future Fuels Forum economic model had one scenario of $8/litre fuel by 2018.

There are many options to recognise and reduce our oil vulnerability. The most crucial is to start discussing the probability that global oil shortages may arrive soon, perhaps within the next five to ten years.

For further information, contact Bruce Robinson, Convenor, ASPO-Australia, http://www.ASPO-Australia.org.au, 0427 398 708 Bruce.Robinson@ASPO-Australia.org.au

I had no idea that the possibility of an oil shortage was looking at such a short timeline. :shock:

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby jules21 » Sat Nov 24, 2012 4:51 pm

greyhoundtom wrote:
News Release 8th November 2012

The hype about US shale oil is obscuring the bald fact that, like the Bass Strait oilfields, the output from many of the world’s super-giant oilfields is in serious decline and is only just being matched by new small fields being discovered and brought into production now.

this is misleading. shale oil has 2 problems:
1. it is only marginally economical to extract at current oil prices. that will clearly change as crude oil reserves continue to be depleted.
2. its extraction is environmentally disastrous.

on the "plus" side, there are vast reserves of shale oil and there is no shortage of it. the question is - how badly do we want to get at it?

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