Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thread)

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby human909 » Sat Mar 02, 2013 8:08 am

wizdofaus wrote:You can look up fatalities/permanent injuries on the TAC site. Offhand I don't have any other references saved anywhere, but I might have to dig them out again at some point.


Here is some data but some is fairly old.
http://www.atsb.gov.au/media/36229/cros ... risons.pdf

In Australia as a car driver there are 0.33 deaths per million hours as opposed to 0.42 for a bicycle. It is not hard to believe that in Europe driver is more dangerous on a time basis. Either way they are the same order of magnitude which when we are talking about such low risks it is totally comparable.
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by BNA » Sat Mar 02, 2013 9:54 am

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby wurtulla wabbit » Sat Mar 02, 2013 9:54 am

simonn wrote:
Xplora wrote:
simonn wrote:
Hypotheticals and marketing slogans aside, are you really arguing that the graphic I linked to does not demonstrate that speed, once an accident has occurred, kills?


I think he's arguing that "speed kills" is a wimp out by the State.



He was also directly arguing against my point.

I sort of agree with the above. I would not say it is a "wimp out" though. The problem is that people, in general, appear to be stupid so you need a catchy slogan and also threaten them the might of the law, because it is about protecting other people - I do not really care if someone chooses to speed (or whatever) and kills just themselves. If people, in general, were clever and logical they would understand why speeding is a bad thing - and that it is not about them - and not do it, therefore no laws or catchy slogans would be necessary, especially for the sake of their personal entertainment or saving a few seconds or maybe minutes here and there. Clearly this is not the case.

Some emphasis that speed does actually kill in PSAs would probably be a good thing as, at least IME, quite a few people just do not seem to get it.

the mention of the helmet tells the reader that the helmet magically stops their whole body from injury.


Only anti-MHL proponents seem to think this is the case.


I gave up with you as you obviously think everyone else is wrong and you are right.

If speed kills, why do people fly jets and passenger airlines doing 1000kph ?

Reason ? Get to destination faster, same base reason (other than sport) that most do.

Des it kill ? No, the reason people die is human error.

If they squashed someone up against a wall at 31 as opposed to 30, they'd still be hurt or killed, I do not believe that 1kph makes them a killer, their lack of judgment or error will.

As for MHL, its a crock of crap, plain and simple.

Raced, trained, rode bikes in UK for 30yrs without a head injury and stacked majorly over table tops, triple whoops and on wet roads.
Still alive.

It's a bloody nanny state Australia !
I thought Aussies were free thinking blokes, not airy fairy's with a gazillion poofy laws !

Harden up australia, your countries slipping from your control !
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby wilddemon » Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:12 am

Yes it is a bit dusty but good work on digging it out. Tell me if I'm reading this wrong but the data;
a. Supports the claim that a car journey is more likely to result in fatality than a bike journey by 20%.
b. However km for km the bike is 4 times more likely to result in a fatality.

So if you are going for a "spin" the bike is safer, but if you are going somewhere (for example commuting) then it is safer to take the car. That is purely in black and white terms of you live or die.

Conclusion: although the data is very old, if you are pumping out some kays the bike is considerably more dangerous. Though hour for hour car trip is 13.5% more likely to result in fatality than bike. Therefore, with previously posted data that shows that not wearing a helmet increases the likelihood that you will suffer a severe injury by a factor of 4 (there's a leap of faith between severe injury and death, but that's all I have) then if you wear a helmet, in Australia, then km for km cycling will kill you as often as getting there in a car. Otherwise, its 4 times more likely to kill you. I don't have data suggesting the benefits of wearing a helmet in a car (though I recall hearing years ago that it improved safety of driver, don't know about passenger), but I will suggest that for all practical purposes that MHL in cars is not likely in the near future. I also don't see the practical purpose in police pulling over an unhelmeted cyclist to determine the nature of their journey (milk and bread you say? On your way then). Still think all this data supports MHL, especially since the most vulnerable cyclists (younger riders) are less likely to wear a helmet. I will concede though that those cyclists are less likely to be pumping out kays.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby wilddemon » Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:40 am

Quick addendum to above, most cars now have air bags etc so expect cycling to be more dangerous in comparison.

And to WW, feel free to jump off the tower of London.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby wurtulla wabbit » Sat Mar 02, 2013 11:22 am

I'd be free to do so, there's probably a billion laws here preventing it ! :D
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby wilddemon » Sat Mar 02, 2013 11:26 am

I LOL'd
;)
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby wurtulla wabbit » Sat Mar 02, 2013 11:41 am

Anyway, do the cops actually enforce these silly laws ?
I know one approached us a few years ago but was laughed at and he went away probably feeling a bit silly, but has anyone actually been stung by them ??
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby il padrone » Sat Mar 02, 2013 12:21 pm

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=31309&start=5550#p931635

86 people during Operation Halo, 19-22nd Feb.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby wilddemon » Sat Mar 02, 2013 12:29 pm

I think some stats were posted recently that suggested that its not very common for people to get fined. Edit: thanks again for the clarification I.P. Mind you, the anti MHL apparently wear helmets most of the time but don't want to be told that they have to wear helmets. Reminds me of this from your countrymen;


Francis: Good idea, Judith. We shall fight the oppressors for your right to have babies, brother... sister, sorry.
Reg: What's the *point*?
Francis: What?
Reg: What's the point of fighting for his right to have babies, when he can't have babies?
Francis: It is symbolic of our struggle against oppression.
Reg: It's symbolic of his struggle against reality.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby il padrone » Sat Mar 02, 2013 12:44 pm

Please drop the facile arguments :roll:

If you've read anything on the topic or even a fraction of this thread you should know quite well why helmet-wearers argue against MHL, many of whom wore helmets before the law came in.

It's very old and tired to see such insulting guff continuously dredged up.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby wilddemon » Sat Mar 02, 2013 12:51 pm

By my calcs you have been here for 37.5 minutes.
Why don't you lighten up and get a sense of humour?
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby il padrone » Sat Mar 02, 2013 12:57 pm

wilddemon wrote:Why don't you lighten up and get a sense of humour?


Really can't see the humour in your line:
wilddemon wrote:Mind you, the anti MHL apparently wear helmets most of the time but don't want to be told that they have to wear helmets.

....and the joke you gave seemed pretty irrelevant.

viewtopic.php?f=37&t=61577
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby Mulger bill » Sat Mar 02, 2013 1:05 pm

Pete might laugh if something funny was posted :roll:
...whatever the road rules, self-preservation is the absolute priority for a cyclist when mixing it with motorised traffic.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby il padrone » Sat Mar 02, 2013 1:54 pm

Hehehe :lol: *ouch* <ribs> :(



Nah, not that bad now. I can even sneeze OK (as long as I brace myself)
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby Mulger bill » Sat Mar 02, 2013 6:57 pm

Sorry Pete, forgot about your hurts :( Knows what borked ribs are like.

I'll try to be more sombre for a few weeks.

Shaun
...whatever the road rules, self-preservation is the absolute priority for a cyclist when mixing it with motorised traffic.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby simonn » Sun Mar 03, 2013 9:57 am

wurtulla wabbit wrote:I gave up with you as you obviously think everyone else is wrong and you are right.


Science is right.

wurtulla wabbit wrote:If speed kills, why do people fly jets and passenger airlines doing 1000kph ?


And airlines/flight are/is regulated far more as a result, are they/is it not?

wurtulla wabbit wrote:Des it kill ? No, the reason people die is human error.


It can be either or both.

wurtulla wabbit wrote:If they squashed someone up against a wall at 31 as opposed to 30, they'd still be hurt or killed, I do not believe that 1kph makes them a killer, their lack of judgment or error will.


Perhaps. Back to reality, the image I posted is from the survival rates of pedestrians in actual incidents. It is real. It is science. Human error can have caused the crash, but people survive because of a low{,er} speed. Therefore, speed kills.

Is it really that hard to understand?
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby wurtulla wabbit » Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:18 am

Ah good old surveys and statistics....always good to rely on govt funded surveys.....

well if they say its true, it must be , right ?
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby simonn » Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:20 am

wurtulla wabbit wrote:Ah good old surveys and statistics....always good to rely on govt funded surveys.....

well if they say its true, it must be , right ?


What would you suggest then?
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby Xplora » Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:14 pm

simonn wrote: Human error can have caused the crash, but people survive because of a low{,er} speed. Therefore, speed kills.

What is the appropriate response to your data, Simon? I think that is wurtalla's position in a nutshell. The roads are virtually unregulated these days, when you compare them to the airways or the workplace. The severity of human error on the road can be absolutely horrifying, yet it seems that the collective response is to ignore human costs or the threat of human cost for the sake of a slightly shorter commute.


You need to present an alternative policy if you want to argue against a point. You are right - faster speeds do kill... but if you won't argue speeds should be lower, or changes made, how can you defend the MHL when the elephant is in the backseat?
Last edited by Xplora on Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby wurtulla wabbit » Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:17 pm

I'd suggest that people open their eyes and read a broad range of media (not just what suits their agenda) and take in what goes on around them.

I seen a Holden ute in a ditch yesterday.
Pointing wrong way, big chunks of dirt all over the shop where the clown spun out on a straight bit of road.
Giving it the boot and lost it !
Speed no factor. His bag of talent wasn't as full as he'd hoped !

Anyway, round and round we go.
Agree to disagree.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby il padrone » Sun Mar 03, 2013 5:42 pm

simonn wrote:What would you suggest then?

Maybe have words with the government about why they keep on building more high speed roads ???

Or why they allow car ads that focus on how speedy and efficient (in reality or in 'style') various new cars are ???

I'd love to see a lot more lower speed limits in urban areas. Then maybe there'd be less of a focus on this supposed need for the MHL.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby simonn » Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:26 pm

Xplora wrote:You need to present an alternative policy if you want to argue against a point. You are right - faster speeds do kill... but if you won't argue speeds should be lower, or changes made, how can you defend the MHL when the elephant is in the backseat?


I do argue that speed limits should be lower in residential areas and areas of high pedestrian areas. I also argue for lower speed limits on designated on-road cycle routes and decent infrastructure for cyclists - I have actually written to local members about it, proposed routes etc.

I also generally do not defend MHLs, I just think most of the arguments used against them are full of brown sticky stuff, opinion, and dodgy statistics and anecdote. I also do not think helmets do more than potentially reduce the severity of a head injury in an accident - there is no such thing as a Bicycle Helmet of Invulnerability. I think the whole anti-MHL thing is a waste of time which could be spent trying to get better infrastructure in place which would actually make a difference to the number and safety of cyclists.
Last edited by simonn on Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby simonn » Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:28 pm

il padrone wrote:
simonn wrote:What would you suggest then?

Maybe have words with the government about why they keep on building more high speed roads ???

Or why they allow car ads that focus on how speedy and efficient (in reality or in 'style') various new cars are ???

I'd love to see a lot more lower speed limits in urban areas. Then maybe there'd be less of a focus on this supposed need for the MHL.


I am in full agreement. However, the question I posed was for WW's little rant about statistics and studies etc. I am always curious of what people who mistrust statistics and studies propose as an alternative.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby Kenzo » Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:34 pm

simonn wrote:I am in full agreement. However, the question I posed was for WW's little rant about statistics and studies etc. I am always curious of what people who mistrust statistics and studies propose as an alternative.

Brown sticky stuff?
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby il padrone » Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:36 pm

simonn wrote:I think the whole anti-MHL thing is a waste of time which could be spent trying to get better infrastructure in place which would actually make a difference to the number and safety of cyclists.

I agree totally with you on the need for better cycling infrastructure (but there is then the question of what is going to work best..... and do we reduce motor vehicle space and/or infrastructure at the same time?)

However we need the horse and cart to move our goods.
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