Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thread)

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby outnabike » Mon Mar 04, 2013 10:55 am

wurtulla wabbit wrote:
simonn wrote:
Xplora wrote:You need to present an alternative policy if you want to argue against a point. You are right - faster speeds do kill... but if you won't argue speeds should be lower, or changes made, how can you defend the MHL when the elephant is in the backseat?


dodgy statistics and anecdote..



Your line from a few posts back...


So, some stats suit you and some don't, you choose to agree with a set saying one thing but then say the above about others....

That's an agenda


WW, just what are you saying here? This is from wikipedia, what is so wrong about an agenda? The way I see it without one you are not organised. :D

Agenda may refer to:
Agenda (meeting), points to be discussed; sometimes refers to the list of topics itself
Political agenda, the set of goals of an ideological group; also used as above, the topics under discussion by a government
Lotus Agenda, a piece of Personal Information Manager software
Agenda (liturgy), a book used in Lutheran worship
The Agenda, a current affairs television program aired by TVOntario
Agenda (poetry journal), a literary periodical in the United Kingdom
Agenda (TVNZ programme), a New Zealand current events programme
Agenda (BBC Scotland programme), a BBC Scotland current affairs programme
Personal organizer, also known as an agenda
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby human909 » Mon Mar 04, 2013 10:57 am

simonn wrote:Not in that sense. In the sense that they exist and you are pushing against them. Better to spend that energy getting the infrastructure.


And there are people not against getting infrastructure?

If advocacy stopped when there was opposition then there would be not advocacy. :!:
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby simonn » Mon Mar 04, 2013 12:13 pm

wurtulla wabbit wrote:
simonn wrote:
Xplora wrote:You need to present an alternative policy if you want to argue against a point. You are right - faster speeds do kill... but if you won't argue speeds should be lower, or changes made, how can you defend the MHL when the elephant is in the backseat?


dodgy statistics and anecdote..



Your line from a few posts back...


So, some stats suit you and some don't, you choose to agree with a set saying one thing but then say the above about others....

That's an agenda


Motor vehicle speed vs pedestrian death rate is physics, not statistics. The statistics simply back this up.

The authors of this study observed... ..."it must be proven in every country that the laws of Isaac Newton are true".

http://humantransport.org/sidewalks/SpeedKills.htm

Maybe this should have been "every individual"?

A lot, even most, of the statistics used for the helmet debate are more or less made up (i.e. surveying individuals, which is a poor way of collecting data). Nobody knows how often a bicycle is ridden, for how long and for what distance (like we do with registered motor vehicles). All we really know is how many cyclists turn up to hospital after a stack, but not how many people do not etc - as a result we do know of the rate of helmet vs non-helmet wearers that have a severe brain injury after reporting to hospital after an accident (non-helmet wears do not fair well - not that this alone justifies MHLs).

What we do know, and is demonstrated world wide - Amsterdam and Copenhagen being prime examples, is that given good infrastructure, more people will ride.

You have however, avoided the question of what you suggest as an alternative for using statistics/studies as the basis of forming an opinion or policy?
Last edited by simonn on Mon Mar 04, 2013 12:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby simonn » Mon Mar 04, 2013 12:16 pm

human909 wrote:
simonn wrote:Not in that sense. In the sense that they exist and you are pushing against them. Better to spend that energy getting the infrastructure.


And there are people not against getting infrastructure?

If advocacy stopped when there was opposition then there would be not advocacy. :!:


Of course there are, but it gets built. Quite a lot in the past 5 years or so in fact.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby wizdofaus » Mon Mar 04, 2013 12:25 pm

simonn wrote:Of course there are, but it gets built. Quite a lot in the past 5 years or so in fact.


And hopefully a gradual shift in public opinion on MHL will result in a more flexible attitude towards that too, even if it takes a long time before any laws are changed.

I'll eat my hat if Melbourne gets anything like 20% mode share for bicycles while the police are still wasting everybody's time fining adults for not choosing to wrap their heads with polystyrene on their daily commute.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby wurtulla wabbit » Mon Mar 04, 2013 12:45 pm

simonn wrote:
wurtulla wabbit wrote:
simonn wrote:[quote="Xplora"]
You need to present an alternative policy if you want to argue against a point. You are right - faster speeds do kill... but if you won't argue speeds should be lower, or changes made, how can you defend the MHL when the elephant is in the backseat?


dodgy statistics and anecdote..



Your line from a few posts back...


So, some stats suit you and some don't, you choose to agree with a set saying one thing but then say the above about others....

That's an agenda


Motor vehicle speed vs pedestrian death rate is physics, not statistics. The statistics simply back this up.

The authors of this study observed... ..."it must be proven in every country that the laws of Isaac Newton are true".

http://humantransport.org/sidewalks/SpeedKills.htm

Maybe this should have been "every individual"?

A lot, even most, of the statistics used for the helmet debate are more or less made up (i.e. surveying individuals, which is a poor way of collecting data). Nobody knows how often a bicycle is ridden, for how long and for what distance (like we do with registered motor vehicles). All we really know is how many cyclists turn up to hospital after a stack, but not how many people do not etc - as a result we do know of the rate of helmet vs non-helmet wearers that have a severe brain injury after reporting to hospital after an accident (non-helmet wears do not fair well - not that this alone justifies MHLs).

What we do know, and is demonstrated world wide - Amsterdam and Copenhagen being prime examples, is that given good infrastructure, more people will ride.

You have however, avoided the question of what you suggest as an alternative for using statistics/studies as the basis of forming an opinion or policy?[/quote]

Policies are politicians vehicles for their agendas, nothing more.

Stats are good IF not linked to policies and politicians.
Therefore , these ones are IMHO bias.

Wife's a nurse in ED.
accidents and people for daily.
Why ? Human error first and foremost(where deaths aren't natural).
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby human909 » Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:03 pm

wurtulla wabbit wrote:A lot, even most, of the statistics used for the helmet debate are more or less made up (i.e. surveying individuals, which is a poor way of collecting data).

What we do know is that there was a SIGNIFICANT decline in cycling following the introduction of MHLs. What we DO know is that it is a barrier to cycling and many people don't like helmets. What we do know is that it is a massive impediment to bike share.

wurtulla wabbit wrote:What we do know, and is demonstrated world wide - Amsterdam and Copenhagen being prime examples, is that given good infrastructure, more people will ride.

Nobody is disputed the need for better infrastructure. Also we also know from international experience that MHLs are not needed for a health and safe cycling culture!!!!

wurtulla wabbit wrote:You have however, avoided the question of what you suggest as an alternative for using statistics/studies as the basis of forming an opinion or policy?

Rational thought? Observation of how cycling works overseas? BTW I don't need a study or stats to tell me that freedom is important to me!

wurtulla wabbit wrote:Stats are good IF not linked to policies and politicians.

That is an amazingly big claim. Stats can clearly by wrong or misleading without the influence of politicians and policies.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby wizdofaus » Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:08 pm

human909 wrote:
wurtulla wabbit wrote:What we do know, and is demonstrated world wide - Amsterdam and Copenhagen being prime examples, is that given good infrastructure, more people will ride.

Nobody is disputed the need for better infrastructure...


Just me or do the quotes seem mixed up here?
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby wurtulla wabbit » Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:56 pm

human909 wrote:
wurtulla wabbit wrote:A lot, even most, of the statistics used for the helmet debate are more or less made up (i.e. surveying individuals, which is a poor way of collecting data).

What we do know is that there was a SIGNIFICANT decline in cycling following the introduction of MHLs. What we DO know is that it is a barrier to cycling and many people don't like helmets. What we do know is that it is a massive impediment to bike share.

wurtulla wabbit wrote:What we do know, and is demonstrated world wide - Amsterdam and Copenhagen being prime examples, is that given good infrastructure, more people will ride.

Nobody is disputed the need for better infrastructure. Also we also know from international experience that MHLs are not needed for a health and safe cycling culture!!!!

wurtulla wabbit wrote:You have however, avoided the question of what you suggest as an alternative for using statistics/studies as the basis of forming an opinion or policy?

Rational thought? Observation of how cycling works overseas? BTW I don't need a study or stats to tell me that freedom is important to me!

wurtulla wabbit wrote:Stats are good IF not linked to policies and politicians.

That is an amazingly big claim. Stats can clearly by wrong or misleading without the influence of politicians and policies.


I use stats for my golf, not much more as I know their mine and unbias, I don't trust people using stats to aide a cause or agenda.

I too hate helmets and as I have said, raced (practiced) and done many large jumps etc without injury.

I am against the law, its a silly one.

I do however think that Australia is severely over regulated in regards to stupid stuff like this.
Maybe its because its a wealthier country and has less crime ? Not sure but I do know British cops wouldn't have time for this crap due to being busy with other more important stuff and seeing as London has almost the entire population as Australia(uk has 3x in total) , I find the law insulting to suggest that its needed.

I'll mention another thing, my mates feel a lot safer without body Armour as it seems to make them more conscious of doing stuff and attempting stuff on their dirt bikes.
I wear a dirt bike helmet as it has definitely saved my bacon a few times from tree branches, spills from falling off in rocky trails at decent speeds.

I would wear one on my mtb in the forest as I'd be inclined to do similar stuff to my dirtbike but not the pace but I would like not to wear one strolling round the lakes taking in the scenery.
Horses for courses and freedom of choice.

Wear one, don't wear one , you pays ya money, ya takes ya chance !
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby Ross » Tue Mar 05, 2013 7:35 am

Spain considering MHL, bike rego and licencing, compulsary insurance and restrictions on the use of bicycles on some main roads.

http://www.conbici.org/joomla/index.php ... &Itemid=58

The Spanish national traffic authority (Dirección General de Tràfico) is currently floating several ideas regarding compulsory bicycle helmets in cities, licence exams for cyclists, compulsory cycle insurance, bicycle licence plates, and restrictions on the use of bicycles on some main roads.ConBici is the coordinating group for 60 cyclist organisations representing thousands of members and wishes to state the following:

First: The procedure followed by the traffic authority in announcing its aims shows a lack of faith towards the organisations representing cycling interests, as this announcement was withheld from cycling groups at previous meetings. These announcements have been made through the press and media. This approach shows contempt for the individuals and organisations involved and will only create public confusion. It seems that the aim of the traffic authority is to present cyclists as a problem – when the real problem is created by private motor traffic. We believe the traffic authority is using the media to spread false ideas and subsequently justify unfair actions.

Second: The traffic authority is presenting the newly proposed regulations as measures to protect cyclists when the effect will be the opposite. These regulations will help push cyclists off the roads and so maintain the total domination of private vehicles – to the detriment of public health, the quality of life, and road safety.

Third: The traffic authority has offered no basis for its intended actions. There is no data that shows the need to take any of the measures that the authority is proposing. None of the problems faced by road users are caused by cyclists and there are no significant statistics showing that pedestrians suffer because of cyclists, or that cyclists cause road accidents. Moreover, there is no evidence showing significant levels of head injuries or accidents without insurance coverage. We call on the traffic authority to justify its intentions with objective data. In the absence of such data, the authority’s declared aims can only be considered to be biased in favour of other interests. In a democratic society, the advantages and need for legislation must be presented and discussed before implementation.

Fourth: The measures announced would turn Spain into Europe’s cycling ghetto and deliver a severe blow to our young and expanding cycling industry. The proposals are absurdly irrelevant and it is impossible to imagine how some would be implemented. Will the government impose controls at borders and airports to regulate the flow of foreign cyclists – most of whom would be breaking the law as soon as they enter Spain.

Fifth: All of Spain’s neighbouring nations have realised the need to encourage the widest possible use of bicycles – for economic reasons, to improve public health, protect the environment, and heighten the quality of life in cities. European nations are adopting favourable tax incentives, building infrastructure, and facilitating the daily use of bicycles by giving it special status as a preferential vehicle. Spain must not become the exception in Europe by imposing barriers to cycling that do not exist elsewhere. Other European cycling organisations have already expressed their concern and offered us unconditional support. Therefore, we demand that the traffic authority shows respect for the cycling community by removing any proposed amendments to road regulations that discourage cycling. We also demand that the traffic authority makes public its draft reform so that every organisation involved can discuss the proposals. Our opposition to the authority’s announced intentions is absolute and we will campaign to prevent the introduction of such legislation – or ensure that such measures are subsequently repealed.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby simonn » Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:18 am

wurtulla wabbit wrote:I use stats for my golf, not much more as I know their mine and unbias, I don't trust people using stats to aide a cause or agenda.


I think you are wise for not trusting other peoples agendas.

However, I think we need to get something straight. Statistics are statistics. Data is data. They are neutral as far as interpretation goes. It is their collection and interpretation that is the problem and should be scrutinized.

Again though, I have to ask, do you have an alternative?
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby outnabike » Tue Mar 05, 2013 3:11 pm

wurtulla wabbit wrote: Wear one, don't wear one , you pays ya money, ya takes ya chance !
Snipped

And so it is full circle WW.............. After 227 pages

Sort of like "There's a hole in the bucket dear Lisa, a hole."

This is the whole point of them opposed to the MHL. We don't at times want to wear one but have to due to the MHL. We are forced by do-gooders to not be allowed to take our chances.
We however are quite pleased to allow those that want to, or ourselves the right to wear one if they, we, like. :D
Still it is nice that you see the point at last... :D
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby wurtulla wabbit » Tue Mar 05, 2013 6:27 pm

simonn wrote:
wurtulla wabbit wrote:I use stats for my golf, not much more as I know their mine and unbias, I don't trust people using stats to aide a cause or agenda.


I think you are wise for not trusting other peoples agendas.

However, I think we need to get something straight. Statistics are statistics. Data is data. They are neutral as far as interpretation goes. It is their collection and interpretation that is the problem and should be scrutinized.

Again though, I have to ask, do you have an alternative?

The way in which they are collected by the individuals have a bias one way or the other, they must have an opinion on the matter and therefore (in my view) be tainted.

Alternative ?
Self regulation.
We are after all, an autonomous race ?? Or are we not allowed to free think and make judgements ?
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby wurtulla wabbit » Tue Mar 05, 2013 7:13 pm

Ross wrote:Spain considering MHL, bike rego and licencing, compulsary insurance and restrictions on the use of bicycles on some main roads.

http://www.conbici.org/joomla/index.php ... &Itemid=58

The Spanish national traffic authority (Dirección General de Tràfico) is currently floating several ideas regarding compulsory bicycle helmets in cities, licence exams for cyclists, compulsory cycle insurance, bicycle licence plates, and restrictions on the use of bicycles on some main roads.ConBici is the coordinating group for 60 cyclist organisations representing thousands of members and wishes to state the following:

First: The procedure followed by the traffic authority in announcing its aims shows a lack of faith towards the organisations representing cycling interests, as this announcement was withheld from cycling groups at previous meetings. These announcements have been made through the press and media. This approach shows contempt for the individuals and organisations involved and will only create public confusion. It seems that the aim of the traffic authority is to present cyclists as a problem – when the real problem is created by private motor traffic. We believe the traffic authority is using the media to spread false ideas and subsequently justify unfair actions.

Second: The traffic authority is presenting the newly proposed regulations as measures to protect cyclists when the effect will be the opposite. These regulations will help push cyclists off the roads and so maintain the total domination of private vehicles – to the detriment of public health, the quality of life, and road safety.

Third: The traffic authority has offered no basis for its intended actions. There is no data that shows the need to take any of the measures that the authority is proposing. None of the problems faced by road users are caused by cyclists and there are no significant statistics showing that pedestrians suffer because of cyclists, or that cyclists cause road accidents. Moreover, there is no evidence showing significant levels of head injuries or accidents without insurance coverage. We call on the traffic authority to justify its intentions with objective data. In the absence of such data, the authority’s declared aims can only be considered to be biased in favour of other interests. In a democratic society, the advantages and need for legislation must be presented and discussed before implementation.

Fourth: The measures announced would turn Spain into Europe’s cycling ghetto and deliver a severe blow to our young and expanding cycling industry. The proposals are absurdly irrelevant and it is impossible to imagine how some would be implemented. Will the government impose controls at borders and airports to regulate the flow of foreign cyclists – most of whom would be breaking the law as soon as they enter Spain.

Fifth: All of Spain’s neighbouring nations have realised the need to encourage the widest possible use of bicycles – for economic reasons, to improve public health, protect the environment, and heighten the quality of life in cities. European nations are adopting favourable tax incentives, building infrastructure, and facilitating the daily use of bicycles by giving it special status as a preferential vehicle. Spain must not become the exception in Europe by imposing barriers to cycling that do not exist elsewhere. Other European cycling organisations have already expressed their concern and offered us unconditional support. Therefore, we demand that the traffic authority shows respect for the cycling community by removing any proposed amendments to road regulations that discourage cycling. We also demand that the traffic authority makes public its draft reform so that every organisation involved can discuss the proposals. Our opposition to the authority’s announced intentions is absolute and we will campaign to prevent the introduction of such legislation – or ensure that such measures are subsequently repealed.


Spanish kids and teens etc all dodge traffic on scooters, 2 up at times wearing not much more than bikinis or boardies.
The place is full of scooters and as such, you see the benefits in moto GP etc.
Pretty sure they get killed but by driving like nutters , nothing to do with the lid.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby simonn » Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:17 pm

wurtulla wabbit wrote:
simonn wrote:
wurtulla wabbit wrote:I use stats for my golf, not much more as I know their mine and unbias, I don't trust people using stats to aide a cause or agenda.


I think you are wise for not trusting other peoples agendas.

However, I think we need to get something straight. Statistics are statistics. Data is data. They are neutral as far as interpretation goes. It is their collection and interpretation that is the problem and should be scrutinized.

Again though, I have to ask, do you have an alternative?

The way in which they are collected by the individuals have a bias one way or the other, they must have an opinion on the matter and therefore (in my view) be tainted.


Which is why such things as the scientific method, [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_blind#Double-blind_trials]double blind testing[/url] and other methods to account for the well known and studied phenomenon of human bias exist.

wurtulla wabbit wrote:Alternative ?
Self regulation.
We are after all, an autonomous race ?? Or are we not allowed to free think and make judgements ?


IOW, making stuff up on the spot? The "I reckon" method?

The problem with that is that it requires everyone to become an expert in everything. It would certainly be a bit chaotic on the roads, to say the least.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby wurtulla wabbit » Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:17 pm

Not an expert, just make a judgement and be Allowed a civil liberty Known as free will !
Like most people, your conscience and common sense drives your awareness to what you should and shouldn't do( generally speaking).

There should be no life guard on the gene pool.

;)
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby simonn » Wed Mar 06, 2013 5:36 am

wurtulla wabbit wrote:Not an expert, just make a judgement and be Allowed a civil liberty Known as free will !
Like most people, your conscience and common sense drives your awareness to what you should and shouldn't do( generally speaking).

There should be no life guard on the gene pool.


And you judgement would be based on...?
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby il padrone » Wed Mar 06, 2013 6:55 am

Personal freedom to determine my own appearance.

Responsibility for my own personal safety.

Education and awareness of the risks.

Development of suitable cycling road skills.
Riding bikes in traffic - what seems dangerous is usually safe; what seems safe is often more dangerous.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby human909 » Wed Mar 06, 2013 7:22 am

simonn wrote:And you judgement would be based on...?


The government is RARELY a better judge of an individual's needs than the individual themselves. Many terrible and horrible things have occur by a government who thinks otherwise.


Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby wurtulla wabbit » Wed Mar 06, 2013 7:58 am

simonn wrote:
wurtulla wabbit wrote:Not an expert, just make a judgement and be Allowed a civil liberty Known as free will !
Like most people, your conscience and common sense drives your awareness to what you should and shouldn't do( generally speaking).

There should be no life guard on the gene pool.


And you judgement would be based on...?


Personal experience.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby simonn » Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:09 am

wurtulla wabbit wrote:
simonn wrote:
wurtulla wabbit wrote:Not an expert, just make a judgement and be Allowed a civil liberty Known as free will !
Like most people, your conscience and common sense drives your awareness to what you should and shouldn't do( generally speaking).

There should be no life guard on the gene pool.


And you judgement would be based on...?


Personal experience.


And when you have no personal experience of something?
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby simonn » Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:09 am

human909 wrote:
simonn wrote:And you judgement would be based on...?


The government is RARELY a better judge of an individual's needs than the individual themselves. Many terrible and horrible things have occur by a government who thinks otherwise.


Where did I mention government?
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby high_tea » Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:47 am

Long long way from the merits(or otherwise) of MHLs right now. As far as all the ranting about freedom goes, I don't have a pithy CS Lewis quote, but another couple of noted English philosophers :shock: remarked that "part-time love just brings me down". I think that's about the size of it.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby il padrone » Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:02 am

simonn wrote:And when you have no personal experience of something?

Develop it through some appropriately graduated training and activity. It's how we all learn, and a mandated helmet is no substitute for this.
Riding bikes in traffic - what seems dangerous is usually safe; what seems safe is often more dangerous.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby human909 » Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:13 am

simonn wrote:And when you have no personal experience of something?

simonn wrote:Where did I mention government?


Stop trolling simon. If you want to make a point the make it.

If a person is not capable of making largely sensible personal safety decisions they will barely make it to adulthood unless they are in near continuous care. Some people are like that and unfortunately they do need continuous car throughout their life.

Those without severe mental incapacitation are usually in a position to make sensible personal safety decisions. The government or the authority is NOT in a better position to make these decision than an individual.


Oh. You didn't mention government? So are we talking about a nanny then? My mum? :roll:
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